ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

if the pic is illustrating the fanfic .... yeah?

 

That's the point, if it HAD been "impersonal and brutal," then it might have made this notion MORE plausible. But it's BECAUSE he makes a point of being extra creepy with her, in multiple scenes, and they show how terrified she is of him, that this notion has more holes in it than Swiss Cheese. And you cannot just use the fact that there's a "sexual undertone" component to it as a justification for "romance." Especially since the sexual component is rape/sexual assault/torture undertones, which is about AS FAR from "romantic" that you could possibly get. And that's NOT even including all of the other awful crap he does that would make her hate him.

This whole notion that "he's just a trouble misunderstood young man who can be redeemed through the love of a good woman" plays into a very problematic cliché, and it basically reduces Rey to a prop in HIS story, which is the exact mistake that the PT made with Padme. She's basically just there to further his character and play a role in HIS "redemption," which is an AWFUL disservice to her as a character.

Basically the people who argue with this ship are having do such extreme levels of mental gymnastics that they should try out for the Olympics.

 

Again, you're not debating the actual points made.
The question is not "Is what Kylo did as bad as rape in the opinion of Adept?"
The question is "Is it rape?" which it is not.

The question is not "Is this a good place for a relationship to start in the opinion of Adept?"
The question is: "Is the dynamic between Rey and Ren that of victim and victimizer?" which it is not.

Good day to you.

 

Interesting theory, but one way or another this theory breaks down when it comes to Finn and Poe.

If Rey's a Skywalker, then one of them could marry her, but the other is left not mentoring or marrying a Skywalker. It is possible, though, that the odd man out could be the mentor in Episode X.

If Rey is not a Skywalker (and she hooks up with Kylo for that reason), then neither Finn nor Poe will marry or mentor a Skywalker. Even if one of them does end up being the mentor in Episode X, one will not fit this rule.

So either this little rule doesn't apply, or the rule further proves that Rey is a Skywalker and will not hook-up with her cousin.

 

Or they go to a detention facility for a proper period of time as determined by a court of Law. The majority of those people were running away not shooting. Worse, when they were place in a circle they were totally unarmed and of no threat. Kylo Ren, on screen, ordered the death of people who were at the time no threat to him or his troops. If he'd wanted too, he could've zip tied the lot of them, and then departed or brought them aboard the ship to be processed and imprisoned. Being to lazy to do either does not justify a war crime.

They were not armed when he ordered the execution. If the FO SOP is to eliminate prisoners then he is supporting an organization that violates basic sentient rights.

It's ONE example of how prisoners are to be treat, the USA does have laws about the detainment of Prisoners of war and executing them can get you a trip to levenworth. As for Guantanamo...you mean the facility the current president is trying to shut down due to the violations that occurred there?

Here you go

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Concordance

The Resistance was founded in response to these violations

You always have the right to self defense, and prisoners of war are encouraged to use every means available to them to escape imprisonment, so Rey, Finn, and Poe are fine.

Kylo killed an unarmed old man who had done nothing to resist him. He then killed his own father who was simply talking to him...he also killed a man via backstab in Rey's vision.

Source?

The Storm Troopers were actively attacking people, at no point were they shown to disarm or be disarmed and detained. Had any storm trooper surrendered and been shot by the Resistance you might have a case, none did. The only slaughter of detained prisoners occurred when Kylo Ren gave the order.

 

So despite it being torturous, a violation of her mind and privacy, since it's not rape it doesn't count?

So because she can fight back we assume she'd be open to a relationship with the man who assaulted her, violated her privacy and killed or attempted to kill her friends
we are to assume love can bloom?

A good day to you as well.

 

Man, listen. Are you listening? I didn't say it was "romantic" for Rey. I said it was an archetype. And it was subverted otherwise it would be too creepy to tolerate. I'm saying the filmmakers, because they hopefully aren't idiots, understand the implications of the "bridal carry" and Death and the Maiden imagery regardless where they take it in the future.

 

It counts, it can be seen as terrible, whatever, you can debate on it, just do not equate it to rape. It's offensive.

If you believe that being physically assaulted or having your privacy breached can be equated to being raped, you have a very odd opinion. Remember again, men can be raped as well.

For most, people, rape is very different from a violation of mind and privacy, and much worse (thus why even murderers despise rapists). You're entitled to a different opinion, of course, but that's not how most people see it.

 

I do...that's why I said "Violating a person" in my post.

So do I, now here's a question for you...have you ever been tortured? Do you have any idea the kinds of things a person who has to been tortured has to deal with?

Has another person painfully forced their way into your mind, pulled out whatever they wanted and then taunted you with them while you were under duress?

I'm not making this up, the writers intended the scene to come off as an Assault, if you have an issue with that, take it up with them.

 

Why does everyone assume I do not know this....some disturbing biases coming out here.

I'm beginning to see the problem, you haven't looked into the kinds of thing those who've been tortured had to deal with. You take the kinds of terrible things a torture victim goes through and then you add the feelings of having your mind violated, by a stranger and you might begin to understand my POV.

 

Adept
You've been added to my ignored list.
If someone wants to start a "what is rape" thread, maybe you should post there. (Not sure where it would fit, but, whatever)
If you think torture can be equated to rape, fine, but most people don't agree with it. I've read accounts from women who were tortured and interrogated during totalitarian governments. It's wildly different. I don't want to discuss this any further.

 

What was shown in the movie was that as soon as the stormtroopers landed the "villagers" opened fire on them first.
I'm not justifying war crimes, I'm just pointing out that in the FO set of mind, taking prisoners is impractical. Thus the only logical option is to wipe them out then and there as you would agree that they cannot seriously leave hostile guerrilla group to regroup...
Hm, apparently the Republic has not properly worked for a while now. How about even Mace Windu deciding he should kill Palps as he is too dangerous to be left alive instead of bringing him to justice? (which was what made Anakin chose to defend Palps...)
This is war and we are shown that law and order no longer really work, so the FO (from their point of view) didn't have more options but to obliterate a potentially dangerous hostile group...

Again, the treaty is signed between the Republic and the First Order and the Republic also has violated that treaty as well by supporting the Resistance in secret....That's how usually wars are fought...Unfairly, usually on both sides...

About Guantanamo...You mean the president who came into office with the promise his first order as president will be to close down that unlawful facility and after two terms in office has not done so...Hm. (But let's not digress and go further into arguments about real world and just discuss the imaginary universe...)

Again, I'm not saying the FO are justified. I'm just pointing out that each side is acting from their own point of view and feels justified to be acting in the way they do.

No, Kylo did not kill his father in cold blood (as you seem to imply)...The backstab killing - we have zero information about the circumstances of that scene, so don't make conjectures. For what we saw it seemed he was actually defending somebody that man was trying to strike, so it may turn out it is a counterargument to the point you are trying to make. So, Kylo's killing people score is still 2 in this movie.

Source of the above: Original script.

As for the first use of the weapon - Kylo doesn't join Hux nazy-rally speech (which I find very significant) and instead is shown watching in silence the use of the weapon. (There was description in the novelization that can be interpreted that he wasn't very happy about this turn of events but I have the audio version only...)

 

I know you won't see this...but it needs to be said.

I'm not the person who brought up rape. That was rowan_greenleaf. I provided an answer in response and people chose to focus on that. I posted clarification on what constitutes assault, and then added in a link to information that described what the writers intent was during the interrogation scene. So if you don't want to define what rape is that's fine, simply do not bring it up and neither will I.

 

We've been talking about rape, numerous times. Since there are no actual sexually explicit rape scenes, ultimately, we're just debating what is "rape-like" and everyone has a different way of seeing it.

 

Hey Nanosoft, great post as usual. I really like your discussion on themes; I enjoy the theme of Rey and Finn as orphans and the sense that there is a family out there for both of them. I agree with your thoughts on the unlikelihood of Finn and Rey being related, and the overconfidence people seem to place on statements made by KK and company. Statements that can be interpreted in various ways. Imo, the fact that this is a Skywalker family saga doesn't mean that EVERYONE in it needs to be a Skywalker.

Very good points in your post, but the bolded is something that I'd like to address because there's a lot of false assumption in there, and a lot of excellent points that can absolutely be applied to Kylo/Rey as much as to FinnRey.

Blanket statements can be tricky. Aside from shipping Kylo/Rey, I would caution you against generalizing that ALL in the Kylo/Rey camp are X or Y, because your statement will most likely end up being false. In the case of FinnRey, it is false that people in this thread are blind to that possibility. In fact, as I recall very few people have said that they don't see FinnRey as a viable option established by filmmakers. Yes, it's possible - maybe even cute - but super, super boring, yawn-inducing, anti-climactic and bland. People are aware the potential is there; they just don't want to see it realized because they prefer Kylo/Rey.

1. I agree with you that Finn's romantic interest towards Rey has been hinted at (strongly or otherwise) in TFA. But the long hug, the forehead kiss, the determined promise to see each other again - these things that you are using to imply romantic feelings on Rey's end towards Finn - these are signs of affection. Plain and simple affection can be felt towards anyone (including pets), and that feeling is not necessarily romantic. This hug/forehead kiss/promise can be seen between brothers, parents and their children, good friends, pets and their owners - and yes, lovers. It's affection that Rey is showing towards Finn, but it doesn't equate to romantic interest. If anything, it's the basis of the argument for FinnZoning, because it's so filial and innocent, sans flirt element.

2. You're right, it would be weird for filmmakers to establish FinnRey as a possible romantic pairing only to reveal later on that they are actually related. The same principle applies to Kylo/Rey, in my view.

 

nvmnd

 

So you use a scene in which Mace Windu plans to kill someone...only to have it backfire and push Anakin towards evil as reason why I should let the slaughter of unarmed people go......I'm not seeing it.

If they'd killed them in self defense they would be fine, they instead slaughtered them when they were unarmed. Logic dose not dictate the groups death, and the FO chosing slaughter over imprisonment does not help Kylo's case.

The Resistance would not exist without those treaty violations. The Republic was fully within it's rights to enforce the treaty but an unwillingness to go to war lead to he current state of affairs which resulted in billions of lives being lost when the FO launched an unprovoked attack on the current capital of the NRO plus a number of other worlds.



[quoute]About Guantanamo...You mean the president who came into office with the promise his first order as president will be to close down that unlawful facility and after two terms in office has not done so...Hm. (But let's not digress and go further into arguments about real world and just discuss the imaginary universe...)[/quote]

You brought it up, and it's clear people want it shut down.

Everyone is the hero of their own story, that doesn't make their actions right and it does negate the depths of their crimes.

Your going to have to explain that one, as I don't see it.

Since that man appears to be the last person alive in a field of dead bodies the idea Kylo was somehow defending someone is difficult to believe.

[/quote]

If he'd voiced that, or even looked like he cared about the people on screen I might buy that...but as it stands, as the film is shot he voices no opposition to the weapon. If anything it sounds like he's just disappointed about failing to find his uncle who he wishes to face.

 

Oh dear we didn't know Ren was a villain! :[

 

The biggest problem is the erroneous premise that if a woman smiles, is friendly to a man or shows enthusiasm interacting with him, then it must necessarily mean she is romantically interested/wants to have sex. No, she doesn't. My feeling is that many viewers project this common misconception about men and women relationships to a possible romantic pairing. Let me telegraph it because it seems that this common this-worldly misunderstanding is projected to fictitious characters apparently - - women can be friendly, enthusiastic with a man WITHOUT feeling any romantic or physical attraction. Please do not deny Rey (or any woman) the right to be good friends with a man that doesn't imply sex. If most men cannot be friends with women and invest in a friendship only expecting sex, well that's their problem really. (Yes, Finn might be interested in Rey in that way, but that doesn't necessarily mean she is. ( As an aside: The line about the cute boyfriend made me cringe...) We see this happen in real life so often, it is mindboggling. There is nothing wrong with a woman liking a guy without wanting him and most men are terribly immature when they find it out and their enthusiasm for a woman's company usually disappears when they realise that they are not going to be more than friends...Or stubbornly refuse to believe what the reality is and persevere until they wear her off...Yes, Rey appreciates Finn, and she really needs him as a friend because that's her actual first friend that she remembers. It doesn't need to be romantic. It is good as it is.

Han's advise to Finn was not romantic. Han figured out Finn was lying when he claimed to be from the Resistance and Han cautioned him about women's intuition. That's all. Possibly more to do about Han alluding to his own experience of lying to women and how that is not wise as women tend to be shrewd and find things out eventually due to them being more perceptive...

(Also, The same is true for men. When two men are hugging and enjoy each others company it doesn't necessarily mean they are gay. Example: Luke and Han's relationship in OT which was what was attempted with Finn and Poe but backfired as Issac did that lip biting which was odd, and opened a can of worms...But that is not the thread to discuss this...)

 

oh i love me a bit of sarcasm....

honestly, i feel corrective measures coming our way

 

I can see a certain set of shippers (and I don't mean the reylos) and their soapboxes are out in full force in this thread.....they really don't give up, do they?

 

The red line normally signifies the line drawn in the sand, something both parties won’t cross….. I don’t think the line means that the sides are irreversible…but definitely means that a decision has been made, through word or action….I think it has more to do with the fact that Rey is now going to take the lightsaber to Luke and continue with her training….while Snoke has called Kylo to him to complete his training…..so as of now, each has gone to a different side…. (however, did you notice that Rey’s costume looks more grey in the island scene with Luke…I think that is a sign that the dark side isn’t done with her yet)

I’ll speak about the movie posters in a separate post as it will require a long explanation.

 

it always makes me wonder.. why am i liking this character and why am i advocating for this guy?

 

no. i think i might just pop in a film and ignore thread for tonight. let them circle, er, masturbate all over. it'll be easier to just clear up the mess in the morning

 

panki I've read about her clothes looking grey at the end, I didn't really notice it. I think you're right, the DS isn't done with her...

darth_frared Maybe because he's a lonely and tortured soul? I feel you.