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ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Sunbloom, Dec 19, 2015.

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Sforza Jedi Master

Registered:

Jan 28, 2016

Geminiwankenobi said: ↑

People probably ant to strap some tape over my mouth to shut me up about Rey Kenobi but I haven't given a full explanation as to why I think she's a Kenobi.

1. Her solitude on a dusty sandy planet.
Daisy Ridley said: How Rey starts off, her being solitary is a big clue as to who she is. A character most known for his solitary personality and living choices is Obi Wan Kenobi from ANH. He is introduced to us as Ben Kenobi (make note of that name)..Ben is not Obi Wan's real name, he gave himself a new name whilst living in solitude. Rey could have given herself a fake name because she does not know her real name, I also heard that on the helmet she has it says the word "reigh" She could have chosen that name and turned it into Rey. The other two members of the trio do not use their real names either. Finn does not know his, Kylo adopted a new one. The only thing similar to Luke about how she starts is that she is on a sand planet. she is completely different to him in the fact that she lives completely alone in solitude and does not use her real name. Both Anakin and Luke did not start that way in the stories.

People think she could be hidden there and is in solitary to protect her because she is Lukes, but then that can just as easily be said if she is a force sensitive Kenobi, she would need to be hidden too, I mean, Kylo is running around murdering force sensitive children. There are targets on their heads.

Personally I think Daisy is just talking about Rey's personality being solitary because Rey could have easily decided to live with other scavengers, but she doesnt, she wants to live by herself, on her own. That is what she means by her being solitary, it's not about her being hidden for her safety.

Ben Kenobi also chose the solitary life.

She is introduced with her face hidden, not only does this tie in with the other 2 members of the Trio, but it also ties in with how Obi Wan is introduced to an audience, his face is hidden.

2. Her lack of a Family and family history.

Rey is absolutely alone with no family, nothing is known about them, she is shrouded in mystery. Obi Wan/Ben Kenobi is also one of the only character's who's family appears to be non existent and pretty much nothing is known about them, he is a mystery. He does not appear to have any descendants at all when we meet him in ANH "the last of his line"

3. Obi Wan Kenobi's childhood and growing up.

In the official book about Phantom Menace, Obi Wan grew up dreaming of being a pilot and he enjoyed fixing machines in his spare time, until he realised he was force sensitive and was then taken away from his family to train, he cant remember the early days with his family.

Rey cant remember her family and is shown to be an aspiring pilot and is good at fixing machines, She puts a helmet on her head and knows a lot about machines. I only remember Luke being interested in machines not flying when we first meet him.

4. Her accent

Sometimes the most obvious clue is just sitting right under your nose.

I do not for one second believe that her English accent means nothing and is just a coincidence.

John Boyega is English, he was told to not use his accent because it does not fit with his character. Daisy on the other hand was told to keep her accent and she was told to actually make it sound a bit posher. Why? Because accent is something inherited from your surroundings and where you grow up, her family must have had posh English accents..again this points to her having nothing to do with Luke and everything to do with characters who have English accents.

The accent in a film is just as defining of character as any other attribute, like a scar where did they get that scar?, the character is smoking, why does this character smoke? The character has an English accent, why does she have this accent?

This is why Batman is played by an English actor but is told to do an American accent because Batman's family is American. Someone gives a southern accent in a movie, you know where they came from, the south of America. Someone has an Australian accent in a movie, they come from Australia.

Rey has an English accent in this movie? She has come from somewhere where they speak with an English accent. Not American.

I left the cinema thinking "who is she, she must be related to someone" and I thought of her accent and drew a conclusion immediately that the only characters who are most famously known for their English accents in this Franchise is Kenobi or C3PO, she is not the descendent of a robot.

The bad guys are also tied in with this accent so I'm not ruling out Dark Rey Origins theory. I think that theory is very compelling as well and I wouldn't mind seeing that happen.

5. Her clothes

Rey has a long cloak-like robe, it's like a watered down version of Obi Wan's robes and boots from The Phantom Menace.

6. Saving a droid in trouble

She hears a commotion which disrupts her solitude and goes and saves BB8. Ben Kenobi hears a commotion which disrupts his solitude and saves Luke and the droids.

7. The sense that people know her but then have no clue who she is.

Han solo feels like he knows her, Leia feels like she knows her, Luke feels like he knows her but they all do not recognise her facial features to be of someone they have met before in the past. If they can sense this in her then it could indicate Kenobi they are sensing. I also think Han and Leia feel like she is a Daughter in Law, like they can sense that their son would love her. Also if Han loves her, Leia loves her instantly, t's only natural that their son would love her instantly.

(I'm going to get to Kylo's connection later)

8. The lack of Obi Wan Kenobi.

We hear about/ see all the important human main characters in this story, all bar one. Obi Wan Kenobi had a huge part to play in both trilogies, he is closely tied with both Luke and Anakin Skywalker, yet......

People argue that every trilogy has to have Skywalker, well every trilogy also has to have a Kenobi. A Skywalker is there in the form of Kylo, A Kenobi is absent. It seems like he has just completely been forgotten. Unless his descendent is hidden there right under our noses the entire time.

9. His arrival.

Well over half way into the movie, lots of characters from the old franchise have made an appearance be it through telling tales or just seeing them in the flesh. Still nothing about Obi. he appears to be gone, forever.

Then he appears.

He doesn't just make any old entrance through word of mouth or a passing phrase. No, the filmmakers chose to save his entrance for the most important moment of Rey's life. The Forceback.

10. He is calling to her through the lightsaber.

Rey is called to a chest containing a lightsaber (One that is very similar to the one Obi Wan kept it in), she opens it, touches it and is shown a bunch of visions from the past/future, she has people talking from the past, she is shown what she must do. Once it has all been shown to her, the person showing her these visions is revealed: Obi wan tells her: "Rey, these are your first steps" he is the only person speaking to her in the present and it's right at the end of the vision, when she's getting scared, he shouts out to her, we get a sense that he is not quite part of the sequence of visions because his voice can still be heard when she has left the force vision.

This leads me to believe that it is him calling to her and is contacting her directly through that lightsaber. If this moment was about showing her that she is a Skywalker and that she must take up her families legacy, why then is not a single Skywalker showing her this vision? Why is it Obi Wan? The choice of words Obi Wan uses are like something a parent would say to their child. Take your first steps.

More importantly they are drawing attention to Obi Wan when he was older as well as when he was younger. Old Obi Wan says "Rey" then young Obi Wan says "these are your first steps" A reminder that he had an important part to play in the prequels and original trilogy.

11. The real reason she is called to the chest and lightsaber.

People are so blinded by the fact that it's Anakin's lightsaber, that they are missing something else. I understand why though, it's a deliberate misdirection on the filmmaker's behalf. You only understand the significance of Obi Wan talking to her through that lightsaber once you have seen the ending of the film when she passes it to Luke, the rightful owner.

Obi wan held on to that lightsaber for longer that Anakin and Luke combined, he then gave Luke his father's lightsaber in order to prompt Luke to take on the quest. At the end, Rey is giving Luke his father's lightsaber to prompt him BACK to the quest. This is why it must be Rey who goes to him, because a Kenobi is the messenger.

Maz flat out tells her who owned that lightsaber, sounds surprised that it called to Rey, tells Rey that she will never see her family again (because they literally are all gone, she is the last), she practically tells her that she needs to bring Luke Back and that she will need the force, she then tells her to take the lightsaber (which she gives directly to Luke) that is why she is called to that lightsaber.

12. Kylo Ren's attraction and fascination.

I believe these two have a force bond, but I also believe that this bond could be there for another reason. He feels drawn to her because she is a Kenobi and Obi Wan was close to Anakin as well as Luke Skywalker. This time it is a Male Skywalker descendent and a Female Kenobi, so attraction could build and love between them could also easily develop.

13. The mind trick.

This one trick stands out a lot in this movie like a bit of a sore thumb, we dont see anyone else using it, yet it comes as naturally to her as it did to Obi Wan Kenobi in both the prequels and original trilogy. The mind trick is closely tied to Obi Wan, and when you hear her do that with her confident British accent, I was immediately reminded of Obi wan.

14. Sneaking around Star Killer Base

Very much like Obi Wan snuck around the death star, hanging onto sides, messing with equipment

15. Ben Solo

That's not a coincidence. It would show even more how Rey and Kylo are intertwined, his real name is Ben, just like Ben Kenobi.

16. She is nimble on her feet

When she jumps out of Ren's grasp and rolls away from him, like a slippery mouse, I am reminded of a young Obi Wan, he was very nimble and I remember him rolling around a lot in the prequels.

17. Her clothes at the end.

All grey with unique patterns on the shoulders and unique sleeves which cover parts of her hands, it looks like this concept art of a young Obi Wan Kenobi. If she is a Kenobi, this is a very secretive and subtle way to show she is:

Rey is dressed very similarly, exact same pattern on the shoulders, exact same sleeves, she has grey trousers too.

18. The ending and it's emotional symbolism, getting luke back to the quest

Already sort of touched on this but, her giving him that lightsaber, is very epic and I can see when filmmakers are trying to make a point with what you are seeing and hearing. It's one giant callback to when Obi wan first met Luke and gave him that lightsaber, that, to me is the filmmakers giving you a huge clue as to who she is before the movie ends. It would explain why Daisy thinks that by the end you should know who she is and when I re-watched that scene. I knew who she must be. I just felt like it was spelling it out to us without words.

19. Reversal of the mentor.

Luke is dressed exactly like Obi wan was when he first met him, the hood and everything, he has a beard just like Obi Wan. Obi Wan was Luke's mentor. He is now to be her mentor, but this time a Skywalker will mentor a young Kenobi.

20. Why would it work?

The theme: Obi wan failed to stop Anakin from falling to the dark side, this time his granddaughter can save Anakin's Grandson from the same fate.

Products of their grandfathers, not grandfather.

It would not be that hard to explain that she is a Kenobi. Luke would only have to tell her.
Click to expand...

Sforza, Mar 6, 2016

#22276

MissG, Darth Dementor, Zeralyos and 5 others like this.
spacebaby45678 Jedi Master

Registered:

Jan 14, 2016

Geminiwankenobi said: ↑

People probably ant to strap some tape over my mouth to shut me up about Rey Kenobi but I haven't given a full explanation as to why I think she's a Kenobi.

1. Her solitude on a dusty sandy planet.
Daisy Ridley said: How Rey starts off, her being solitary is a big clue as to who she is. A character most known for his solitary personality and living choices is Obi Wan Kenobi from ANH. He is introduced to us as Ben Kenobi (make note of that name)..Ben is not Obi Wan's real name, he gave himself a new name whilst living in solitude. Rey could have given herself a fake name because she does not know her real name, I also heard that on the helmet she has it says the word "reigh" She could have chosen that name and turned it into Rey. The other two members of the trio do not use their real names either. Finn does not know his, Kylo adopted a new one. The only thing similar to Luke about how she starts is that she is on a sand planet. she is completely different to him in the fact that she lives completely alone in solitude and does not use her real name. Both Anakin and Luke did not start that way in the stories.

People think she could be hidden there and is in solitary to protect her because she is Lukes, but then that can just as easily be said if she is a force sensitive Kenobi, she would need to be hidden too, I mean, Kylo is running around murdering force sensitive children. There are targets on their heads.

Personally I think Daisy is just talking about Rey's personality being solitary because Rey could have easily decided to live with other scavengers, but she doesnt, she wants to live by herself, on her own. That is what she means by her being solitary, it's not about her being hidden for her safety.

Ben Kenobi also chose the solitary life.

She is introduced with her face hidden, not only does this tie in with the other 2 members of the Trio, but it also ties in with how Obi Wan is introduced to an audience, his face is hidden.

2. Her lack of a Family and family history.

Rey is absolutely alone with no family, nothing is known about them, she is shrouded in mystery. Obi Wan/Ben Kenobi is also one of the only character's who's family appears to be non existent and pretty much nothing is known about them, he is a mystery. He does not appear to have any descendants at all when we meet him in ANH "the last of his line"

3. Obi Wan Kenobi's childhood and growing up.

In the official book about Phantom Menace, Obi Wan grew up dreaming of being a pilot and he enjoyed fixing machines in his spare time, until he realised he was force sensitive and was then taken away from his family to train, he cant remember the early days with his family.

Rey cant remember her family and is shown to be an aspiring pilot and is good at fixing machines, She puts a helmet on her head and knows a lot about machines. I only remember Luke being interested in machines not flying when we first meet him.

4. Her accent

Sometimes the most obvious clue is just sitting right under your nose.

I do not for one second believe that her English accent means nothing and is just a coincidence.

John Boyega is English, he was told to not use his accent because it does not fit with his character. Daisy on the other hand was told to keep her accent and she was told to actually make it sound a bit posher. Why? Because accent is something inherited from your surroundings and where you grow up, her family must have had posh English accents..again this points to her having nothing to do with Luke and everything to do with characters who have English accents.

The accent in a film is just as defining of character as any other attribute, like a scar where did they get that scar?, the character is smoking, why does this character smoke? The character has an English accent, why does she have this accent?

This is why Batman is played by an English actor but is told to do an American accent because Batman's family is American. Someone gives a southern accent in a movie, you know where they came from, the south of America. Someone has an Australian accent in a movie, they come from Australia.

Rey has an English accent in this movie? She has come from somewhere where they speak with an English accent. Not American.

I left the cinema thinking "who is she, she must be related to someone" and I thought of her accent and drew a conclusion immediately that the only characters who are most famously known for their English accents in this Franchise is Kenobi or C3PO, she is not the descendent of a robot.

The bad guys are also tied in with this accent so I'm not ruling out Dark Rey Origins theory. I think that theory is very compelling as well and I wouldn't mind seeing that happen.

5. Her clothes

Rey has a long cloak-like robe, it's like a watered down version of Obi Wan's robes and boots from The Phantom Menace.

6. Saving a droid in trouble

She hears a commotion which disrupts her solitude and goes and saves BB8. Ben Kenobi hears a commotion which disrupts his solitude and saves Luke and the droids.

7. The sense that people know her but then have no clue who she is.

Han solo feels like he knows her, Leia feels like she knows her, Luke feels like he knows her but they all do not recognise her facial features to be of someone they have met before in the past. If they can sense this in her then it could indicate Kenobi they are sensing. I also think Han and Leia feel like she is a Daughter in Law, like they can sense that their son would love her. Also if Han loves her, Leia loves her instantly, t's only natural that their son would love her instantly.

(I'm going to get to Kylo's connection later)

8. The lack of Obi Wan Kenobi.

We hear about/ see all the important human main characters in this story, all bar one. Obi Wan Kenobi had a huge part to play in both trilogies, he is closely tied with both Luke and Anakin Skywalker, yet......

People argue that every trilogy has to have Skywalker, well every trilogy also has to have a Kenobi. A Skywalker is there in the form of Kylo, A Kenobi is absent. It seems like he has just completely been forgotten. Unless his descendent is hidden there right under our noses the entire time.

9. His arrival.

Well over half way into the movie, lots of characters from the old franchise have made an appearance be it through telling tales or just seeing them in the flesh. Still nothing about Obi. he appears to be gone, forever.

Then he appears.

He doesn't just make any old entrance through word of mouth or a passing phrase. No, the filmmakers chose to save his entrance for the most important moment of Rey's life. The Forceback.

10. He is calling to her through the lightsaber.

Rey is called to a chest containing a lightsaber (One that is very similar to the one Obi Wan kept it in), she opens it, touches it and is shown a bunch of visions from the past/future, she has people talking from the past, she is shown what she must do. Once it has all been shown to her, the person showing her these visions is revealed: Obi wan tells her: "Rey, these are your first steps" he is the only person speaking to her in the present and it's right at the end of the vision, when she's getting scared, he shouts out to her, we get a sense that he is not quite part of the sequence of visions because his voice can still be heard when she has left the force vision.

This leads me to believe that it is him calling to her and is contacting her directly through that lightsaber. If this moment was about showing her that she is a Skywalker and that she must take up her families legacy, why then is not a single Skywalker showing her this vision? Why is it Obi Wan? The choice of words Obi Wan uses are like something a parent would say to their child. Take your first steps.

More importantly they are drawing attention to Obi Wan when he was older as well as when he was younger. Old Obi Wan says "Rey" then young Obi Wan says "these are your first steps" A reminder that he had an important part to play in the prequels and original trilogy.

11. The real reason she is called to the chest and lightsaber.

People are so blinded by the fact that it's Anakin's lightsaber, that they are missing something else. I understand why though, it's a deliberate misdirection on the filmmaker's behalf. You only understand the significance of Obi Wan talking to her through that lightsaber once you have seen the ending of the film when she passes it to Luke, the rightful owner.

Obi wan held on to that lightsaber for longer that Anakin and Luke combined, he then gave Luke his father's lightsaber in order to prompt Luke to take on the quest. At the end, Rey is giving Luke his father's lightsaber to prompt him BACK to the quest. This is why it must be Rey who goes to him, because a Kenobi is the messenger.

Maz flat out tells her who owned that lightsaber, sounds surprised that it called to Rey, tells Rey that she will never see her family again (because they literally are all gone, she is the last), she practically tells her that she needs to bring Luke Back and that she will need the force, she then tells her to take the lightsaber (which she gives directly to Luke) that is why she is called to that lightsaber.

12. Kylo Ren's attraction and fascination.

I believe these two have a force bond, but I also believe that this bond could be there for another reason. He feels drawn to her because she is a Kenobi and Obi Wan was close to Anakin as well as Luke Skywalker. This time it is a Male Skywalker descendent and a Female Kenobi, so attraction could build and love between them could also easily develop.

13. The mind trick.

This one trick stands out a lot in this movie like a bit of a sore thumb, we dont see anyone else using it, yet it comes as naturally to her as it did to Obi Wan Kenobi in both the prequels and original trilogy. The mind trick is closely tied to Obi Wan, and when you hear her do that with her confident British accent, I was immediately reminded of Obi wan.

14. Sneaking around Star Killer Base

Very much like Obi Wan snuck around the death star, hanging onto sides, messing with equipment

15. Ben Solo

That's not a coincidence. It would show even more how Rey and Kylo are intertwined, his real name is Ben, just like Ben Kenobi.

16. She is nimble on her feet

When she jumps out of Ren's grasp and rolls away from him, like a slippery mouse, I am reminded of a young Obi Wan, he was very nimble and I remember him rolling around a lot in the prequels.

17. Her clothes at the end.

All grey with unique patterns on the shoulders and unique sleeves which cover parts of her hands, it looks like this concept art of a young Obi Wan Kenobi. If she is a Kenobi, this is a very secretive and subtle way to show she is:

Rey is dressed very similarly, exact same pattern on the shoulders, exact same sleeves, she has grey trousers too.

18. The ending and it's emotional symbolism, getting luke back to the quest

Already sort of touched on this but, her giving him that lightsaber, is very epic and I can see when filmmakers are trying to make a point with what you are seeing and hearing. It's one giant callback to when Obi wan first met Luke and gave him that lightsaber, that, to me is the filmmakers giving you a huge clue as to who she is before the movie ends. It would explain why Daisy thinks that by the end you should know who she is and when I re-watched that scene. I knew who she must be. I just felt like it was spelling it out to us without words.

19. Reversal of the mentor.

Luke is dressed exactly like Obi wan was when he first met him, the hood and everything, he has a beard just like Obi Wan. Obi Wan was Luke's mentor. He is now to be her mentor, but this time a Skywalker will mentor a young Kenobi.

20. Why would it work?

The theme: Obi wan failed to stop Anakin from falling to the dark side, this time his granddaughter can save Anakin's Grandson from the same fate.

Products of their grandfathers, not grandfather.

It would not be that hard to explain that she is a Kenobi. Luke would only have to tell her.
Click to expand...

Beautiful!

And this little jewel I just found on Tumbler by some Kenobi truthers

"14) ……….this picture I took at Target. Luke, Anakin, Darth Vader, and Kylo all used similar grips. Rey’s and Obi-Wan’s grips are noticeably different, so… ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" reylotrashlordrebloggedpeace-passion-reylo

spacebaby45678, Mar 6, 2016

#22277

taembby, MelBee, Darth Dementor and 12 others like this.
Sforza Jedi Master

Registered:

Jan 28, 2016

spacebaby45678 said: ↑

Sforza said: ↑

So, Obi One's girlfriend/wife was royal or something like that?
Click to expand...

Yes Duchess Satine
Click to expand...

OFC, Mandalorian flag at Maz castle.

Sforza, Mar 6, 2016

#22278

Valency Jane, Zeralyos, Matt's Solo Cousin and 3 others like this.
panki Jedi Grand Master

Registered:

Jan 11, 2016

styroglue said: ↑

Over 7000 posts to catch up. Dear... Rey and Kylo Ren, whatever you think they may be, certainly inspire lengthy discussions.

Fyi, this is a well made fan poster, but it's not a cosplayer. Hot Toys happens to makes screen accurate figures. This was posed by a blogger.
https://m.facebook.com/hottoys/phot...690437343/10153205111067344/?type=3&source=43
Click to expand...

I absolutely love this picture! But it makes me feel like Kylo is trying to cover himself in Vader's ashes to prevent the light from reaching him but yet it is reaching him.

panki, Mar 6, 2016

#22279

styroglue, Valency Jane, Zeralyos and 4 others like this.
Reynak Jedi Knight

Registered:

Feb 29, 2016

BlackIsTheColor said: ↑

Reynak said: ↑

BlackIsTheColor said: ↑

naaaah. I mean, maybe in northern Europe.
When I saw him in my home town I thought he was italian. His colors and strong features (nose, full lips) are very common here. As a matter of fact he reminds me a couple of guys I know (only one of them is good looking though)
I think that in those pictures of him running he looks more "exotic" than he is.
Click to expand...

Then you saw him in person. What did he look like? Because actors don't look the same when you see them in person. Very often they disappoint you. In other cases it's just the opposite.
Click to expand...

yes, that's true. I've seen quite a few celebrities at the festival because when I was younger and didn't have to work I used to hang there with my friends Actors usually look smaller and a lot thinner.
Anyway, I didn't know Adam beforehand. He's tall, indeed, although not as big as he looks on screen.
He looked good in his suit, well groomed. The hair were longish and lovely. As a matter of fact, he had come directly from London where he was filming TFA so he had Kylo's hair.
I knew nothing about his involvement in TFA until that very day and, since I was a huge fan of the OT but didn't like the PT, I didn't know what to think about it.
IMO the description of him being unconventionally handsome fits well.
He looked a normal guy, not your typical Hollywood star with a megawatt smile. But he smiled a lot, more than in most of the interviews I watched on youtube. He looked shy and extremely nice. A bit disorientated, maybe.
However, his co-star and director (Rohrwacher and Costanzo, who happen to be partners in real life) were very protective and fond of him. The atmosphere was quite laid down because it was a small indipendent film so, thank goodness, there was none of the craziness of Brangelina, Clooney or whatever big star comes to your mind.
So, I thought he was cute but also that maybe it was just me, because I like tall guys and I'm not much attracted by pretty faces.
I indeed felt like I was fancing the geek guy at school... LOL
Anyway, I kind of forgot it all... and the funny thing is that when I watched “Frances Ha”, a few months later, I didn't recognize him at first.
Then I've started to watch Girls and got him on my radar
Click to expand...

That's true, whenever I've seen actors in real life I thought they were quite short and very thin, and nothing extraordinary as regards looks, in most cases. I have seen people who are far more attractive and are not actors. What you say is nice, he is cute in an understated unconventional way,so you think you are perhaps the only one who likes that guy but later you discover he has the same effect on more people than you expected. I can imagine that.

Perhaps you had the feeling that you liked the class nerd,as you put it, because he is so far from you typical movie star, he doesn't behave like one, I mean, and he doesn't consider himself as one. He says he doesn't like red carpets and they make him feel uncomfortable.

Reynak, Mar 6, 2016

#22280

Valency Jane, BrehaSolo, BlackIsTheColor and 3 others like this.
Sylvia Snow Jedi Knight

Registered:

Mar 5, 2016

Just a quick question, seeing that it's 892 already, how long will it take for this threat to reach 1000???

Sylvia Snow, Mar 6, 2016

#22281

Darth Dementor, Valency Jane, Little_Boots and 1 other person like this.
Geminiwankenobi Jedi Grand Master

Registered:

Feb 10, 2016

Force22 said: ↑

Geminiwankenobi
I like the points you wrote on how it would work symbolically, but I still think the evidence is flimsy.

I mean, we don't think Poe is Leia's son just because he sends a droid with important information, he's captured by a dark sider and rescued by someone in a stormtrooper uniform... (True that we know Poe is a Dameron)

I don't know, there are too many call backs to ANH in TFA for everything to be interpreted as a parentage clue.

On the other hand, symbolically, it would be interesting. It could work. I just don't think the clues are there yet, and I wonder about the amount of backstory or exposition necessary to make that work. I find it a little convoluted. But hey, perhaps they'll find a good explanation.
Click to expand...

I dont think we are supposed to know yet, if it is explained within the next 2 movies (which is quite a bit of time to do so) then when you look back on TFA you would see the hints which were there the whole time

When I look at Rey/Ren scenes, I can see they are symbolic and metaphoric, however they are not spelling out a love story at this point in the franchise, but they are pointing to it, and if they are endgame, it will look obvious when you look back on TFA.

Thats how I see it with Rey Kenobi theory.

Geminiwankenobi, Mar 6, 2016

#22282

Darth Dementor, laugh-it-up-fuzzball, Valency Jane and 6 others like this.
spacebaby45678 Jedi Master

Registered:

Jan 14, 2016

http://reylotrashlord.tumblr.com/post/140586711360/a-brief-tldr-of-major-known-reyobi-wan

Here is the whole post, but I think there are a few Rey/Obi parallels that are not mentioned in Geminiwankenobi

7) Goes hand to hand with Kylo Ren, with certain moments in the battle almost mirroring Obi Wan’s final battle with Anikin in RotS exactly.
8) Abandons Kylo Ren on the battle field in a very similar manner to which Obi Wan abandoned Anikin

9) Understands Droid and Shyriiwook.
10) A lot of people use the piloting as an exclusively Skywalker trait, but Obi-Wan was also an excellent pilot. He just didn’t enjoy it.
11) The Phantom Menace scene where Obi-Wan fixes a ship by ripping something out. (I was inebriated when I rewatched this so I can’t remember specifics, BUT it did happen because I yelled about it). !!!!! This was when I first began to believe in Rey Kenobi
12) Another thing people chalk up to being just a Luke trait: both witnessed the death of their mentor/paternal figure. However, Obi-Wan and Rey got revenge.(I know that Luke blew up the Death Star and that’s arguably a form of revenge, but that’s inherently different from dueling someone and maiming or killing them).
13) Both have the capacity for extreme rage and have used it when fighting. Obi-Wan pretends that he doesn’t feel emotions that sharply or let them affect his decisions, but his duel with Darth Maul points otherwise. It’s only when Obi-Wan focuses that he’s able to defeat Darth Maul.

spacebaby45678, Mar 6, 2016

#22283

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panki Jedi Grand Master

Registered:

Jan 11, 2016

Rei of Sunshine said: ↑

Actually... I was going more for Dragon and Phoenix = Kylo Re and Rey

Whereas Snoke is the Snake in the Phoenix's talons...

Instead of Reylo being all Phoenix, I figured that to stay true to the yin yang concept, one must be the dragon while the other is the phoenix...

This also goes well with the idea of bringing balance to the force... Dragon and Phoenix can either mean a tempestuous union or a blissful one...like the Dark and the Light, when Jed and Sith fight, there is no balance...but the resolving of grey can be the blissful union.

Click to expand...

When I saw this pic of the dragon and phoenix, I could almost imagine the dragon saying- You need a teacher, I can show you the ways of the force....and the phoenix closing it's eyes and mumbling- the force....

panki, Mar 6, 2016

#22284

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Brobi-Wan Jedi Knight

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Feb 26, 2016

spacebaby45678 said: ↑

Sforza said: ↑

So, Obi One's girlfriend/wife was royal or something like that?
Click to expand...

Yes Duchess Satine
Click to expand...

Hey, I know how to pick 'em!
Brobi-Wan has good taste.

Sylvia Snow said: ↑

Just a quick question, seeing that it's 892 already, how long will it take for this threat to reach 1000???
Click to expand...

I think it was only a week or so ago when we were at 800, so it should only be about 2 weeks and we should reach 1000, no broblem!

Brobi-Wan, Mar 6, 2016

#22285

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Sylvia Snow Jedi Knight

Registered:

Mar 5, 2016

Brobi-Wan said: ↑

spacebaby45678 said: ↑

Sforza said: ↑

So, Obi One's girlfriend/wife was royal or something like that?
Click to expand...

Yes Duchess Satine
Click to expand...

Hey, I know how to pick 'em!
Brobi-Wan has good taste.

Sylvia Snow said: ↑

Just a quick question, seeing that it's 892 already, how long will it take for this threat to reach 1000???
Click to expand...

I think it was only a week or so ago when we were at 800, so it should only be about 2 weeks and we should reach 1000, no broblem!

Click to expand...

Well, there's speculation that Laura Dern will be Duchess Satine......

Sylvia Snow, Mar 6, 2016

#22286

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Little_Boots Jedi Grand Master

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Dec 23, 2015

Crimson Corsair said: ↑

Welcome young Skywalker

Click to expand...

I love the design in the throne room. A spider at the centre of his Web.

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Little_Boots, Mar 6, 2016

#22287

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Geminiwankenobi Jedi Grand Master

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Feb 10, 2016

spacebaby45678 said: ↑

ITA The Kenobi narrative hints are the most subtle! They Skywalker et al. call backs are mostly visual.

Crimson Corsair Obi Wan was also a good pilot, so this call back cancels out for our potential Dads
Click to expand...

Good old fashioned misdirection so that they can throw an unexpected twist at you

Hey doesnt she appear so obviously to be Luke's daughter? well guess what she's not! and the clues were there all the time!

Geminiwankenobi, Mar 6, 2016

#22288

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rey09 Jedi Knight

Registered:

Dec 20, 2015

Thorin Oakenshield said: ↑

rey09 said: ↑

Thorin Oakenshield said: ↑

Yeah. I agree. I think the resistance will need aid now that the republic fleet is gone. My guess is Leia goes to him asking for his support against the FO. She will have to convince him to fight because he believe the FO's problem is with the resistance. She tells him once Snoke is done with them he will come for King Prana. Heres the cool thing: Prana is king of Naboo. I imagine once the empire fell the Hutts made their move to take Naboo[given the close proximity between tatooine and Naboo]. He rose to power and defended Naboo and took the fight to Tatooine itself, overthrowing the Hutts and taking their position as the big crime boss.
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How did you find out he's the king of Naboo?? I can't find his planet online. I just remember seeing the current senator of Naboo in the dictionary.
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Oh no. That is just my idea. Because I really like Naboo and would like to see it again
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Ah ok, I'd also love to see Naboo. It's so beautiful

rey09, Mar 6, 2016

#22289

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Sylvia Snow Jedi Knight

Registered:

Mar 5, 2016

Crimson Corsair said: ↑

Sylvia Snow said: ↑

Hello everyone! I'm a new member here but I have been lurking in this Reylo discussion for quite some time and now, I decided to join in even if I may not have much experience or knowledge on some aspects, also English is not my native language but I would like to contribute as much as possible.

Click to expand...

Thank you,it's my honor to be here around such awesome group of people.
Welcome young Skywalker

Click to expand...

Sylvia Snow, Mar 6, 2016

#22290

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Little_Boots Jedi Grand Master

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Dec 23, 2015

Geminiwankenobi said: ↑

People probably ant to strap some tape over my mouth to shut me up about Rey Kenobi but I haven't given a full explanation as to why I think she's a Kenobi.

1. Her solitude on a dusty sandy planet.
Daisy Ridley said: How Rey starts off, her being solitary is a big clue as to who she is. A character most known for his solitary personality and living choices is Obi Wan Kenobi from ANH. He is introduced to us as Ben Kenobi (make note of that name)..Ben is not Obi Wan's real name, he gave himself a new name whilst living in solitude. Rey could have given herself a fake name because she does not know her real name, I also heard that on the helmet she has it says the word "reigh" She could have chosen that name and turned it into Rey. The other two members of the trio do not use their real names either. Finn does not know his, Kylo adopted a new one. The only thing similar to Luke about how she starts is that she is on a sand planet. she is completely different to him in the fact that she lives completely alone in solitude and does not use her real name. Both Anakin and Luke did not start that way in the stories.

People think she could be hidden there and is in solitary to protect her because she is Lukes, but then that can just as easily be said if she is a force sensitive Kenobi, she would need to be hidden too, I mean, Kylo is running around murdering force sensitive children. There are targets on their heads.

Personally I think Daisy is just talking about Rey's personality being solitary because Rey could have easily decided to live with other scavengers, but she doesnt, she wants to live by herself, on her own. That is what she means by her being solitary, it's not about her being hidden for her safety.

Ben Kenobi also chose the solitary life.

She is introduced with her face hidden, not only does this tie in with the other 2 members of the Trio, but it also ties in with how Obi Wan is introduced to an audience, his face is hidden.

2. Her lack of a Family and family history.

Rey is absolutely alone with no family, nothing is known about them, she is shrouded in mystery. Obi Wan/Ben Kenobi is also one of the only character's who's family appears to be non existent and pretty much nothing is known about them, he is a mystery. He does not appear to have any descendants at all when we meet him in ANH "the last of his line"

3. Obi Wan Kenobi's childhood and growing up.

In the official book about Phantom Menace, Obi Wan grew up dreaming of being a pilot and he enjoyed fixing machines in his spare time, until he realised he was force sensitive and was then taken away from his family to train, he cant remember the early days with his family.

Rey cant remember her family and is shown to be an aspiring pilot and is good at fixing machines, She puts a helmet on her head and knows a lot about machines. I only remember Luke being interested in machines not flying when we first meet him.

4. Her accent

Sometimes the most obvious clue is just sitting right under your nose.

I do not for one second believe that her English accent means nothing and is just a coincidence.

John Boyega is English, he was told to not use his accent because it does not fit with his character. Daisy on the other hand was told to keep her accent and she was told to actually make it sound a bit posher. Why? Because accent is something inherited from your surroundings and where you grow up, her family must have had posh English accents..again this points to her having nothing to do with Luke and everything to do with characters who have English accents.

The accent in a film is just as defining of character as any other attribute, like a scar where did they get that scar?, the character is smoking, why does this character smoke? The character has an English accent, why does she have this accent?

This is why Batman is played by an English actor but is told to do an American accent because Batman's family is American. Someone gives a southern accent in a movie, you know where they came from, the south of America. Someone has an Australian accent in a movie, they come from Australia.

Rey has an English accent in this movie? She has come from somewhere where they speak with an English accent. Not American.

I left the cinema thinking "who is she, she must be related to someone" and I thought of her accent and drew a conclusion immediately that the only characters who are most famously known for their English accents in this Franchise is Kenobi or C3PO, she is not the descendent of a robot.

The bad guys are also tied in with this accent so I'm not ruling out Dark Rey Origins theory. I think that theory is very compelling as well and I wouldn't mind seeing that happen.

5. Her clothes

Rey has a long cloak-like robe, it's like a watered down version of Obi Wan's robes and boots from The Phantom Menace.

6. Saving a droid in trouble

She hears a commotion which disrupts her solitude and goes and saves BB8. Ben Kenobi hears a commotion which disrupts his solitude and saves Luke and the droids.

7. The sense that people know her but then have no clue who she is.

Han solo feels like he knows her, Leia feels like she knows her, Luke feels like he knows her but they all do not recognise her facial features to be of someone they have met before in the past. If they can sense this in her then it could indicate Kenobi they are sensing. I also think Han and Leia feel like she is a Daughter in Law, like they can sense that their son would love her. Also if Han loves her, Leia loves her instantly, t's only natural that their son would love her instantly.

(I'm going to get to Kylo's connection later)

8. The lack of Obi Wan Kenobi.

We hear about/ see all the important human main characters in this story, all bar one. Obi Wan Kenobi had a huge part to play in both trilogies, he is closely tied with both Luke and Anakin Skywalker, yet......

People argue that every trilogy has to have Skywalker, well every trilogy also has to have a Kenobi. A Skywalker is there in the form of Kylo, A Kenobi is absent. It seems like he has just completely been forgotten. Unless his descendent is hidden there right under our noses the entire time.

9. His arrival.

Well over half way into the movie, lots of characters from the old franchise have made an appearance be it through telling tales or just seeing them in the flesh. Still nothing about Obi. he appears to be gone, forever.

Then he appears.

He doesn't just make any old entrance through word of mouth or a passing phrase. No, the filmmakers chose to save his entrance for the most important moment of Rey's life. The Forceback.

10. He is calling to her through the lightsaber.

Rey is called to a chest containing a lightsaber (One that is very similar to the one Obi Wan kept it in), she opens it, touches it and is shown a bunch of visions from the past/future, she has people talking from the past, she is shown what she must do. Once it has all been shown to her, the person showing her these visions is revealed: Obi wan tells her: "Rey, these are your first steps" he is the only person speaking to her in the present and it's right at the end of the vision, when she's getting scared, he shouts out to her, we get a sense that he is not quite part of the sequence of visions because his voice can still be heard when she has left the force vision.

This leads me to believe that it is him calling to her and is contacting her directly through that lightsaber. If this moment was about showing her that she is a Skywalker and that she must take up her families legacy, why then is not a single Skywalker showing her this vision? Why is it Obi Wan? The choice of words Obi Wan uses are like something a parent would say to their child. Take your first steps.

More importantly they are drawing attention to Obi Wan when he was older as well as when he was younger. Old Obi Wan says "Rey" then young Obi Wan says "these are your first steps" A reminder that he had an important part to play in the prequels and original trilogy.

11. The real reason she is called to the chest and lightsaber.

People are so blinded by the fact that it's Anakin's lightsaber, that they are missing something else. I understand why though, it's a deliberate misdirection on the filmmaker's behalf. You only understand the significance of Obi Wan talking to her through that lightsaber once you have seen the ending of the film when she passes it to Luke, the rightful owner.

Obi wan held on to that lightsaber for longer that Anakin and Luke combined, he then gave Luke his father's lightsaber in order to prompt Luke to take on the quest. At the end, Rey is giving Luke his father's lightsaber to prompt him BACK to the quest. This is why it must be Rey who goes to him, because a Kenobi is the messenger.

Maz flat out tells her who owned that lightsaber, sounds surprised that it called to Rey, tells Rey that she will never see her family again (because they literally are all gone, she is the last), she practically tells her that she needs to bring Luke Back and that she will need the force, she then tells her to take the lightsaber (which she gives directly to Luke) that is why she is called to that lightsaber.

12. Kylo Ren's attraction and fascination.

I believe these two have a force bond, but I also believe that this bond could be there for another reason. He feels drawn to her because she is a Kenobi and Obi Wan was close to Anakin as well as Luke Skywalker. This time it is a Male Skywalker descendent and a Female Kenobi, so attraction could build and love between them could also easily develop.

13. The mind trick.

This one trick stands out a lot in this movie like a bit of a sore thumb, we dont see anyone else using it, yet it comes as naturally to her as it did to Obi Wan Kenobi in both the prequels and original trilogy. The mind trick is closely tied to Obi Wan, and when you hear her do that with her confident British accent, I was immediately reminded of Obi wan.

14. Sneaking around Star Killer Base

Very much like Obi Wan snuck around the death star, hanging onto sides, messing with equipment

15. Ben Solo

That's not a coincidence. It would show even more how Rey and Kylo are intertwined, his real name is Ben, just like Ben Kenobi.

16. She is nimble on her feet

When she jumps out of Ren's grasp and rolls away from him, like a slippery mouse, I am reminded of a young Obi Wan, he was very nimble and I remember him rolling around a lot in the prequels.

17. Her clothes at the end.

All grey with unique patterns on the shoulders and unique sleeves which cover parts of her hands, it looks like this concept art of a young Obi Wan Kenobi. If she is a Kenobi, this is a very secretive and subtle way to show she is:

Rey is dressed very similarly, exact same pattern on the shoulders, exact same sleeves, she has grey trousers too.

18. The ending and it's emotional symbolism, getting luke back to the quest

Already sort of touched on this but, her giving him that lightsaber, is very epic and I can see when filmmakers are trying to make a point with what you are seeing and hearing. It's one giant callback to when Obi wan first met Luke and gave him that lightsaber, that, to me is the filmmakers giving you a huge clue as to who she is before the movie ends. It would explain why Daisy thinks that by the end you should know who she is and when I re-watched that scene. I knew who she must be. I just felt like it was spelling it out to us without words.

19. Reversal of the mentor.

Luke is dressed exactly like Obi wan was when he first met him, the hood and everything, he has a beard just like Obi Wan. Obi Wan was Luke's mentor. He is now to be her mentor, but this time a Skywalker will mentor a young Kenobi.

20. Why would it work?

The theme: Obi wan failed to stop Anakin from falling to the dark side, this time his granddaughter can save Anakin's Grandson from the same fate.

Products of their grandfathers, not grandfather.

It would not be that hard to explain that she is a Kenobi. Luke would only have to tell her.

EDIT - reason 21

Daisy Ridley almost **** her pants when she thought she gave the secret away on Japanese television LOL..her face dropped and she started breathing quickly when someone started talking about who her character might be after she had just spoken about the solitary Rey being a big clue.
Click to expand...

Where is this show that Daisy spoke on? Someone send a link lol

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Little_Boots, Mar 6, 2016

#22291

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Geminiwankenobi Jedi Grand Master

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Feb 10, 2016

If people also want to get a good idea about what themes they wanted to bring into the franchise, sometimes the earliest concepts will reveal it to you, however many get abandoned as well. But I ean come on, they clearly stuck with this one, it was something they wanted to do right from the start:

Kira and Jedi Killer (Rey and Kylo)

Geminiwankenobi, Mar 6, 2016

#22292

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Jakku Sun Aesthetic Jedi Knight

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Feb 22, 2016

It's funny that we know exactly who Kylo Ren is related to, but we have no idea for Rey, while we know exactly what Rey was doing most of her life, thanks to her survival guide, but Kylo's backstory is about as mysterious as Rey's parentage. The parallels....

Whoever Rey's parents turn out to be, i feel like every theory is going to need a lot of explaining since they made it such a mystery. I can only think they made it a mystery because it is somehow important to the plot. At this point, though, I'm afraid everyone is going to be disappointed. I'm still going to hope they have something really good planned, though.

Jakku Sun Aesthetic, Mar 6, 2016

#22293

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Matt's Solo Cousin Jedi Knight

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Feb 12, 2016

MoonFyre said: ↑

Jakku Sun Aesthetic said: ↑

I had just a couple thoughts about some things being discussed lately.
About Luke and his relationship to Ben/Kylo: I think probably Luke knows even more than Leia. So Han knows the least, then Leia, and then Luke knows the most about how/why Ben/Kylo turned than anyone. Even though it's pretty far-fetched, I have entertained the idea that Ben/Kylo and Luke are/were planning something together and somehow the plan went wrong...who knows?? Idk we better get tons of answers from Luke.

I am sure this idea has been thought of by someone, but Kylo putting his helmet down in the "ashes" or whatever they are in the interrogation seems important to me. It could symbolize that he will fall and then rise, like a Phoenix. It could also symbolize how Darth Vader was burned and essentially died in flamfre and turned to ash and now benkylo is rising from the legacy and ashes of his grandfather. He will rise above it and become what his grandfather never got the chance to become. I also think when he drops the mask when talking to Han it is supposed to remind us of how he set his mask down in the ashes and signal that this is his lowest moment, his burning into ash moment. He is lower than Rey and Finn, everything is red like fire. But he won't burn like Anakin. He won't be turned to ash forever like Vader. He will rise from this low point.... Idk could be reading waaaaay too much into that
Click to expand...

This is really good, the phoenix metaphor is really cool! According to Jewish legends, phoenix represents victory over temptation. I have the feeling that Kylo will go through more tribulations and will finally reach the turning point of his life, leading to his ultimate estrangement from Snoke and the dark side. … he will reject going full and eternally dark (he isn't full dark to begin with, and he still have the pull of the light even when he killed Han).

Metaphorically speaking, it’ll tear him apart on the inside and consume his spirit in flames… and yes, just like the phoenix rising from the ashes, he’s going to be renewed and reborn, with the embodiment of Ben Solo (light) and Kylo Ren (dark).

It’s also interesting that according to the Chinese Wisdom, Phoenix is seen in two, male and female. Combining them together, they represent yin and yang. The female phoenix is associated with the yin energy (dark, passive, cold, moon) while the male phoenix deals with the yang (light, active, life, sun). Their combination as a whole is the symbol of balance and immortal partnership.

If Kylo and Rey are to parallel each other in ST, maybe phoenix could be seen as both of their symbols too. Yin yang, victory over temptation, renewal and partnership – it fits their dynamic, duality, possible future alliance and them winning over their struggles and temptations.
Click to expand...

I agree. This "rising from the ashes" metaphor is fantastic and possibly pretty accurate. I mean they showed ashes *twice*. Okay, the first one was with Vader's helmet, so you can just say that those ashes are probably from the funeral pyre and are just part and parcel of the larger Vader shrine. But the second set of ashes ... IMO, that's unnecessary. They didn't *need to have* a pile of ashes in the interrogation room. If they are going to burn somebody, they wouldn't need wood to do it. It's also very interesting that that's where Kylo puts his helmet when he takes it off for Rey ... like the Kylo mask in the ashes represents his current low state, but then he walks away from them to her, at least momentarily. So yeah, ashes mean something.

Also, thank you @MoonFrye for pointing out the symbology of the phoenix in both Jewish and Chinese culture. The Chinese version fits with the larger "Space Panda/Yin & Yang" theme, but I find the Jewish interpretation to be especially poignant for Kylo (and maybe Rey, depending on where she goes). The idea of "victory over temptation" is such a satisfying concept for a character like him. For him it would literally be like throwing off the chains, and visually, it might be the moment of the lightsaber flies into his hand.

Matt's Solo Cousin, Mar 6, 2016

#22294

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Geminiwankenobi Jedi Grand Master

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Feb 10, 2016

Little_Boots said: ↑

Where is this show that Daisy spoke on? Someone send a link lol

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Click to expand...

Geminiwankenobi, Mar 6, 2016

#22295

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Brobi-Wan Jedi Knight

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Feb 26, 2016

Sylvia Snow said: ↑

Well, there's speculation that Laura Dern will be Duchess Satine......
Click to expand...

I thought Satine died during The Clone Wars cartoon run, but her sister, Bo Katan, on the other hand, might still be alive:

(wow, Brobi-Wan does know how to pick 'em!)

Brobi-Wan, Mar 6, 2016

#22296

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Speksy Jedi Master

Registered:

Jan 16, 2016

Sylvia Snow said: ↑

Brobi-Wan said: ↑

spacebaby45678 said: ↑

Yes Duchess Satine
Click to expand...

Hey, I know how to pick 'em!
Brobi-Wan has good taste.

Sylvia Snow said: ↑

Just a quick question, seeing that it's 892 already, how long will it take for this threat to reach 1000???
Click to expand...

I think it was only a week or so ago when we were at 800, so it should only be about 2 weeks and we should reach 1000, no broblem!

Click to expand...

Well, there's speculation that Laura Dern will be Duchess Satine......
Click to expand...

I can see why

Speksy, Mar 6, 2016

#22297

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Mana Jedi Master

Registered:

Dec 28, 2015

Geminiwankenobi said: ↑

Little_Boots said: ↑

Where is this show that Daisy spoke on? Someone send a link lol

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Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Funny how those women took 'Solitary' to mean she's Han's child...I hope they're not too disappointed, now that Daisys confirmed Rey's not a Solo...

Mana, Mar 6, 2016

#22298

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Geminiwankenobi Jedi Grand Master

Registered:

Feb 10, 2016

god I really hope that this franchise is not copying Phantom of the Opera to a tee...it sounds very similar, I hope they are just taking elements and will not copy her choice.

Question: Why does Christine choose Raul instead of the Phantom?
Answer:This is a very short, but very complex question about which dissertations are written. Here is my best attempt at a brief summary. Christine lives as a sheltered child-like woman in a highly patriarchal Victorian society. She is torn between two loves. There is Raoul, who represents safety, light, and a sort of romantic, adolescent view of what true love should mean. Then there is Erik, the Phantom, with whom Christine has had a long time bond. He has been to her like a guardian angel. He gave her music. He comforted her when her father died. And yet, as his role turns from that of protector and teacher to one of lustful suitor, he comes to represent darkness, passion, lust, obsession, and danger. He is unstable, driven to madness by a world of light he can never know. He is also, let's not forget, homicidal. Christine ultimately makes the only choice society makes available to her - the safe and sane choice. From the ending of the film, we learn that Christine remained wife to Raoul, but it is unclear how happily her life turned out. She probably always shared a connection to Erik, who possessed for her a depth of love she could never know from any other man. Andrew Lloyd Weber wrote a sequel to "The Phantom of the Opera" called "Love Never Dies." In it, we learn that the Phantom did, indeed, remain in Christine's life. I won't provide spoilers here, but more information about "Love Never Dies" can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Never_Dies_ (musical).
Click to expand...

Geminiwankenobi, Mar 6, 2016

#22299

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Little_Boots Jedi Grand Master

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Dec 23, 2015

Mana said: ↑

Funny how those women took 'Solitary' to mean she's Han's child...I hope they're not too disappointed, now that Daisys confirmed Rey's not a Solo...
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Yea they thought it was solo'tary haha, the buffoons

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Little_Boots, Mar 6, 2016

#22300

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