ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

Thanks, Matt's Solo Cousin!

Yessss!! A lot of the opposition to Kylo Ren right now is because he was defeated by Rey, and whether that's fair criticism or not, the writers have to do something epic to change these minds. I vote for something that will cost major 3D budget dollars $$$, lol.

I don't know if it's just me, but I thought it was odd they'd keep having the script call Rey "afraid" when one of the more famous quotes from Star Wars is the whole, “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” I think there's a lot of foreshadowing about Rey going dark side. It'll be strange if they don't at least have her struggle with that. Chekhov's gun, and all.

 

Did anyone else think it was a bit strange that Kylo Ren said Rey would be dangerous?
Why use the word dangerous? How does he know she will be dangerous, why did he not say powerful.....

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So much YES! to the bolded. And that italicized sentence .... outstanding!!!!!!

Also, I think there might be something there with the Carrie & Daisy viewing. In that same Howard Stern interview where he said that he saw the movie with the two of them, he also said that he didn't "bond" with any of the actors on the movie because he spent too much time being "nervous". I don't think that's because he's unfriendly. He seems like a reserved, polite guy, and a lot of other people who work with him on other projects publicly rave about him being professional and authentic and supportive, (i.e. Lena Dunham, Girls showrunner Jenni Konner, Ben Stiller and director Noah Baumbach from While We're Young, the co-star and director of Hungry Hearts were apparently protective of him in Venice, and the SNL people seemed to like him, etc.).

However, I think his experience on TFA might have been rather different than anyone else's. First off, in one interview on Good Morning America he said that he would have to do a week of Girls, then a week of TFA, then back to Girls and so on. Some of those other actors must have been hanging around the entire time. Also, I don't know if he is a full-on Method actor like Daniel Day-Lewis, but I think I read he stays pretty much in character around the set, and Kylo Ren's just not that approachable. As a result, I don't think a lot of the people on the movie really knew him as well as say Daisy and John seem to know each other, whether it was because he wasn't there half the time or because staying in character meant he had to be stand-offish from everyone. As a result, seeing the movie with Daisy and Carrie is not necessarily an obvious choice. If anyone might have been a go-to person it might be Oscar Isaac. He and Oscar seemed to know each other better in interviews, which makes sense since they were in Inside Llewyn Davis together. Also, didn't they go to that Zoolander 2 premiere together where Ben Stiller did the big selfie? I think Oscar Isaac also might have gone to Juilliard too.

On the other hand, Adam Driver did that Howard Stern interview before the movie came out so maybe he downplayed who he bonded with on-set to keep the mystery going and maybe he is as thick as thieves with Daisy and Carrie? Or maybe there was just a projector guy available when the three of them just happened to be hanging around?

However, both Daisy and Adam indicated that tons of different takes were taken for each scene. In particular, Daisy remarked being surprised that they went with certain takes when she saw the movie. This makes me think that scenes like the interrogation were played like 15 different ways. Sooooo .... if I was the director of Episode VIII, and Rey and Ren and Leia have all kinds of scenes together, I think I might want the actors to see what takes were chosen together, so that they could share their initial impressions with each other and start building the developing characterizations with each other. If there was one thing that I got from some of these interviews was that the actors were also kept in the dark quite a bit in this process as well. Honestly, if JJ made them take all those different takes, the whole overarching tone of the movie and individual scenes could have been pretty murky until they saw it onscreen.

Also, great Adam Driver picture. It's amazing how different people's eyes look depending on lighting. So many times his eyes look black. In this picture it appears that they are actually almost hazel. I love taking pictures for catching perfect "looks" and "emotions", but I am clueless about lighting, but as you can see above that after the subject itself lighting is everything in photography.

 

Would you by any chance have the link to the Russian fanclub, cannot seem to find it even though I speak Russian I'm forgetting how to speak the language lol

 

This thread goes at a speed of 20 pages/day average...on a slow day, 10, when new people sign up, 30. I'm only mad coz I can't back read fast enough!!!

*sighs* *back reads*

 

i do wonder how many people know him and about him, everyone *seems* to know who he is, so the mask doesn't seem to serve the purpose of disguising him, it serves to intimidate.

i agree, though, redemption is a contract with the audience.

 

for the moment i have given up reading it all. my apologies for missing wonderfully insightful posts.

Valency Jane

you were saying how you listened to the spotify playlist.i have found them pretty generic - especially the one for kylo ren. i just happen to think he's too much of a nerd and a classy nerd at that.

also, i simply don't get the emo stuff, it's indistinct and generic to me. so i decided to write my own KYLO REN MIXTAPE

(also i cannot miss an opportunity to push excellent music on people)

i think he would listen to jeff buckley, because he would know that buckley had issues with his father's legacy, also anyone in their right mind would listen to jeff buckley



also, portishead. especially third. beth gibbons has the voice to shatter any soul and machine gun provides such a jagged and aggressive background to her.



fever ray because...



i love women embracing the darkness so fully. it's so rare, female singers are so often sexualised and exhibited. dreijer-andersson is so so cool.

anyway... i don't have time to put a video for all of these individually.

eternal life (road version) - jeff buckley

it's a fire - portishead

dead of night- depeche mode

master and servant - depeche mode

yü gung (feed my ego) - einstürzende neubauten

from her to eternity - nick cave and the bad seeds

the good son - nick cave and the bad seeds

stranger than kindness - nick cave and the bad seeds

a woman a man walked by - pj harvey

and obviously, the original man in black

(i think he would know the NIN version but choose this one )

this is only a fictional playlist, i've really got to set it up now

Matt's Solo Cousin

i guess joining the dark side for power or dominance in itself would be making us lose connection with the character, i agree.

it's interesting to me, what would i accept? i think i like the idea best that he joined snoke because there was a betrayal, and i think he's already figured that he's kinda wrong about it when he meets han but he's done all these terrible things that it seems impossible.

he's confused and misled but not enough for me to think he can't figure it out. and he knows snoke isn't good for him but ironically, even before he's killed han he thinks it's too late. so, does killing han make it even more impossible now? or is killing now the things that can bring him back? it's such a weird paradox when you think about it.

 

I'm getting to the point where I just accept that I won't be able to read every post, at this going rate. When I come back to the thread, I go through my alerts, where people have quoted/tagged me and just read the last 5 pages to get the gist of things. It's unfortunate really, because everyone just comes up with very well thought out theories and ideas.

 

The mask is there to intimidate and to disassociate him from the rest of the world and to hide his boyish looks, IMO....even we have problems seeing him as a villain when he takes the mask off
But now he has a scar on his face...I don´t think he will look disfigured, I hope it will be a similar scar to Anakin´s in RotS...something to give him credibility of sorts...The robes will stay, but I hope the mask is history

And also: your playlist...now that is a playlist: specially Portishead, Cash, PJ an Cave....me likes A lot

Plus your avatar

Edit:

That´s just it, isn´t it? WHY did he join the Knights of Ren and FO and Snoke...IMO, that is the biggest question of TFA....not who is Rey....
I keep thinking it has to be because something that happened with Luke...only to gain more power seems irrelevant...he already is quite powerful, quite, specially in the mental It must be something else...


Darth Imbecillis

I prefer scoundrel, but I´ll take this too Thank you

 

Someone has added subtitles to go along with Kylo’s quiet look of awe

http://40.media.tumblr.com/70bf6b07aea158e7ed23683565e7bdfb/tumblr_inline_o16nrurzpZ1rs7u7f_540.jpg

Lol he does have the look!

 

You buy the fact he had a child after the clone wars? With a woman on Tatooine? So did he abandon the child? Or maybe he did not know about the child. But if OB1 was a jedi fugitive why would the mother tell the child he/she was a kenobi? A dangerous situation in my opinion

 

Obi Wan having kids contradicts what we were shown in the previous episodes. It retcons the jedi code. It would change Obi wans very nature to first betray the Jedi code and then to abandon his child and mother. Some hero he is

 

Yeah I agree! If Kylo Ben and Rey will start a Grey Jedi order, they’ll do it differently. Like the Jedi are allowed to feel and act on their emotions. They’ll just have to deal with their feelings carefully, which is much healthier than suppressing them. No more two goody shoes Jedi but an order of flexible mavericks. There are more complexities to explore by being grey… it could generate more exciting stories after ST. Jedi should be allowed to marry publicly too. Who knows Kylo Ben and Rey will set the precedent.

If it’s true, that will explain Luke’s grumpy troubled expression… he’s having the dilemma of foreseeing the war and knowing the people who will die in it. That will certainly mess him up especially if he saw the grim fates of his loved ones. What if he saw himself as one of the key players of the upcoming war which he doesn’t want to happen? I think someone has already mentioned this earlier that Luke might have retreated because he is trying to find some solutions... something that will give him a better alternative, perhaps.

 

Arcanah

thanks! i loove portishead.

i think i want an overhaul of the costume, ... something less heavy for fighting. i'd like that very much. can we get leather, please? or maybe something grey (that would upset some people so much ) love the mask as well, i want it there some of the time

but why does everyone know who he is?

 

I think you are being a little presumptous. Was it shown to the audience, whether through movie, books, games or Tv show that OB1 had a child? Just reading about the relantionship with Satine. He offers to leave the Jedi order for her. That tells me he will not cheat the jedi code. Either he will be a jedi knight and follow all the rules or he won't be. He is an honourable character. He believed in the Jedi code. NOTHING suggest he actually broke his oath. It is all theory. If they do make Rey a kenobi it would go against everything OB1 stood for and believed in.

 

Yep, it's a total Marry Me look and "You need a teacher. I can show you the ways of the Force" was popping the question. It's true love, people. As someone said in another post, this is his fairy-tale love at first sight.

Thorin Oakenshield Agreed. Brobi Wan was still old school Jedi in ESB and ROTS where he couldn't understand why Luke would want to a) abandon training for his friends and b) spare his father. That's classic Jedi inability to understand how basic human emotions work. So it's out of character that he would go against the code, father children, etc. Though, OTOH, could be karma.

Truth is, there are two types of fans - those who build a theory around the most instantly obvious clue (Daisy is sitting between Harrison and Carrie = Han and Leia's daughter, SOLitary = Solo, Luke's lightsaber is calling to Rey = Luke's daughter) and fans who reject instantly obvious just because it's instantly obvious and therefore cannot surprise in a later reveal (Rey calls Luke's lightsaber = Brobi Wan called Qui Gonn's lightsaber = Rey is Brobi Wan's descendant cause less obvious than Luke's daughter).I'm simply not convinced by any theory because they are all wishful thinking and less "what makes the most sense narratively". Cause what makes most sense story-wise is your answer. is it that Rey descended from so and so or that so and so dropped the kid on a remote planet and why or that so and so had no clue he/she had a kid at all and therefore has nothing to do with dropping or that there is no known so and so parent? Cause 2 most pressing mysteries are "who dropped Rey" and "why" and neither has to have anything to do with real parents, mind you. That's the thing. Everyone is too wrapped up in "parent dropped Rey" because sweetheart line in the novelization. But that's a line that Han used a lot for Leia who wasn't related so it means nothing in terms of familial. Heck, Unkar says it a lot in novelization too. And it was cut from the movie so it isn't canon any more than Rey seeing a mysterious boy is.

I hope this thread doesn't turn into Alternative to Rey's Parentage(Is Skywalker And If You Are Not On a Team You Are Not Welcome) Thread in VIII Forum. So this is the last time I comment on that topic in Reylo Thread.

 

Yeah Portishead is one of my favorites to: All mine

I definitely see him changing his attire during the story when he switches sides....The mask is great, but he doesn´t need it any more...and also very uncomfortable for fighting......I would like him to keep the robes during his Kylo Ren persona, but gradually switching to something more Grey Jedi like....you know how Rey has switched her clothes at the end...scavenger no more ....dunno how the leather Ren would fit with the Gray Jedi thing, though....but maybe for a breastplate or something?

He is famous? For being the fallen prince of Leia, a truest fighter of the enemy?...And FO propaganda wanted to accentuate that? Or he just knows all of the ones who call him by name from the past....San Tekka, probably knows him from his Ben days....wonder who Hux is...did they really go to high school together
Doe Finn knows him, or of him?
Rey doesn´t know him...she gets his name (Kylo) from his head during interrogation...who else?



Thorin Oakenshield

Maybe she was just so great to him that he would betray himself...love kinda makes you do strange things

 

Totally agree with you. But love for somebody does NOT mean you change what you believe in. Obi wan loved Anakin but he still stood against him because he was now an enemy of the jedi. He did his duty. Now I have no doubt that he loved Satine. But did he act on it? A jedi's cross to bear is not that they are unable to love,it is that they are not ALLOWED to love. Not allowed to start a famil, or have kids or even a cute dog! For the greater good they must SACRIFICE THEIR OWN WANTS. But the main thing is did OB1 have any phyiscal relantionship with anyone? Did he have a phyiscal relantionship with Satine? I do not think he did, unless he betrayed the code he believed in. By offering to leave the Jedi for her he was saying he could not break the code. He would follow it completly or NOT at all. Also would his love for Satine or his duty to the Jedi Code mean he would start a phyiscal relantionship with ANOTHER woman?! He is too honourable to betray Satine or the code in my opinion

 

Arcanah i have a very very soft spot for the mask i'm not letting it go until he does. but the robes are too long for fighting with, he'll need to be more limber, there's not been enough fighting for him, we need to see that

lor san tekka knows him... poe *seems* to know he's leia's, han instantly knows who he is... but you are right, rey doesn't.

finn knows who he is as obviously he's his boss, sort of. but he doesn't know he's han and leia's. ... it just seems like it's not a disguise. he intimidates and yeah his pretty face stays hidden.

Thorin Oakenshield

the jedi order has fallen apart. sod the jedi code. it was pretty stupid to begin with.

but the same applies to him and luke for abandoning children, it's not great and i don't want it either. i'm in the rey random camp.

 

The bolded, I must admit, is inline with how I perceived his character...at least in the PT....Much to think about, have we, no?

 

That is a possibility. But you don't think they should have shown that in ONE of the previous 7 episodes? OB was presented as a true Jedi. To say he betrayed what he believed in a flashback scene would not do for me OR a lot of fans. It would need a signifcant number of scenes to show who he fell in love with and why he betrayed the code, what happened to the child. How they met their own lover and had Rey and why they dumped Rey on Jakku. Get through all this and the movie would be 3.5 hours long!

 

We already have a canon instance of Brobi-Wan saying thst he'd have left the Jedi Order for a woman (Satine) if she'd have asked. Brobi-Wan isn't as vanilla as the movies make him out to be. If he'd have left the Order for Satine, surely he could have had a child when the order was no more.

 

I was just about to say that Brobi-Wan....he could have fathered a child after Jedi Order was destroyed...doesn´t even he himself says that he is not a Jedi no more, or sth like that?

How could it be shown in previous episodes if it happened in between 3 and 4? Thorin Oakenshield

 

ok so as always i was on tumblr when i read a amazing analysis on kylo's redemption and redemption arcs in general. note: i was like this person in the first paragraph where i was like, this will be the twist right..., kylo is never coming back right??? but something was nagging me and this post perfectly explains it. this is by rexluscus

p.s great to see so many new people on here , also happy belated 900 pages no doubt we will reach 1000 by the weekend. its so hard to keep up since everything happens when im asleep. *curses* time difference lol. enjoy the read

When I first saw The Force Awakens, I came out of the theater suspecting that Kylo Ren would not get the same kind of redemption that Darth Vader got. My theory was, they’ve done that already. Maybe the “twist” of these new films will be that the conflicted bad guy DOESN’T choose the right side in the end. Maybe love and hope DON’T save the day this time - which, let’s face it, they often don’t in real life. When I read JJ Abrams talking about writing a villain who was “in process,” that seemed to confirm my view. Ah, I thought, they’re doing a “Breaking Bad” thing where we see someone getting WORSE, not better, so that the terms of the hero’s formation are inverted and we see what happens when someone is repeatedly presented with the choice to do good and instead chooses to do evil. That could be kinda interesting.

As I thought more about it, though, I realized that wouldn’t work. Because, despite Abrams’s “in process” remarks, Ren is ALREADY TOO EVIL when we first meet him for the “Breaking Bad” storyline to make sense.

Basically, if Ren doesn’t eventually turn back to the light, his story will have no third act. Think about it: he has been set up as a villain who’s torn between the dark and the light. Which will he choose??? In Movie #1, he wavers a tiny bit, but then hardcore chooses dark. In Movie #2, he will probably choose dark again, in a new and disturbing way. In Movie #3…what then? If he chooses dark yet again, it’s neither surprising nor interesting. You may as well never have set up the light as an option. This isn’t “Breaking Bad” where a guy starts out making bad choices for what seem like the right reasons and slides gradually into making them for the wrong ones. Right out of the gate, Kylo Ren is Choosing Evil. If all he does for the rest of the trilogy is Choose Evil, there’s no development and no arc. If, on the other hand, he Chooses Evil for two movies in increasingly drastic ways and then somehow figures out how to Choose Good despite having committed himself so thoroughly to Evil, THAT’S an arc. It also hews closely to the central themes ofStar Wars and resonates with Ren’s status as a Second Darth Vader.

Let me put it this way: if they weren’t planning on turning him back to the light, Ren would have started out way less evil, maybe even kinda good, and he wouldn’t have killed Han until Movie #2, which would have been his big turning point. His arc would thus have been from Potentially Evil to Fully Evil, like Anakin’s in the prequel trilogy. But if he goes from Already Quite Evil to Still Very Very Evil, then he’s just doing the same thing for three movies.

(I guess you could have him turn to the light in Movie #2 and then turn BACK to the dark in Movie #3. That could be interesting. But there are good reasons not to do this - such as, who’s your on-the-ground villain for Movie #2, then? If you spend Movie #1 building your villain, you’re gonna want to take him for a drive in Movie #2. I’ll get to some other reasons in a moment.)

I see people say things like “what he’s done makes him irredeemable” and “it’ll be too hard for the writers to redeem him.” This misses the point of redemption stories. There’s NO sin that makes a character too evil for redemption - in fact, the worse the sin, the more satisfying the redemption. (And by “redemption,” I mean the character’s own change of heart, not the character’s forgiveness by others.) When Abrams said they had to do something “bold” to make him a worthy successor to Darth Vader, that could be what he meant. Darth Vader was evil as ****, so it moved and amazed us when he turned to the light. But we know that story. We’re virtually expecting some version of it. Kylo Ren has to do something REALLY beyond the pale - not only to make him a scary, effective villain we can all hate, but to make his redemption meaningful. We have to believe redemption isn’t possible for Ren, or else when it happens, we’ll think “oh yeah of course.” And we probably WILL think that, no matter what. But look, I’ve seen ROTJ dozens of times - I KNOW what’s coming - and I’m STILL moved by Vader’s redemption at the end. It’s not the surprise, it’s the magnitude of the reversal that moves me.

The best redemption stories are about people who seem irredeemable, who have committed unforgivable crimes, discovering that those crimes haven’t completely extinguished their capacity for good. If the crimes aren’t that bad, the story has less power. Correspondingly, no crime is TOO bad - that’s the whole point. A redemption arc is basically a conversion narrative, so it emphasizes the contrast between the former evil self and the new good self. The greater the contrast, the more the redemption (or conversion, if you want to call it that) amazes us.

I actually think Ren’s murder of his father makes it EASIER for the writers to turn him back to the light later on - because now he’s done something that can really eat away at him inside. That’s the sin that can slowly blossom into remorse. Often in films, villains turn away from evil because there’s ONE thing they’re not willing to do, a line they refuse to cross - often hurting or killing someone they love. This is the case with Darth Vader. A darker, more radical version of the same story, though, is when a villain DOES cross that line - and discovers they can’t live with it. But the burden of having become someone who COULD do such a thing - who doesn’t DESERVE to be good - makes it that much harder to atone, which gives the story tension and pathos. (See: Snape.) I think that’s how the filmmakers are going to make Ren a “worthy successor” to Darth Vader - by making him cross lines even VADER didn’t cross and STILL find his way back to the light.

Another reason for Ren to redeem himself: otherwise, you’d unwrite the hopefulness of the original trilogy. The first two trilogies amount to a single narrative: a good man falls into evil until he’s redeemed from evil by his son. But this healed wound is reopened in the new trilogy with the fall of the good man’s grandson - who may have fallen as a CHILD, no less. In a way, it’s the residual evil of Vader’s legacy coming home to roost. Most of the conflict in the new trilogy can be traced back to Ben’s fall - to the effects of Vader’s legacy that persist in spite of Anakin’s redemption. So now, if Ben STAYS fallen to the very end and has to be destroyed, then evil triumphs and Anakin’s turn away from the dark side didn’t matter. Which would be a seriously downer ending to the series as a whole. I mean, they COULD go there, but why take a famously optimistic story like Star Wars and make it a story about how everything goes to **** if you wait long enough? Star Wars posits redemption from evil, not just the destruction of evil’s agents, as the ultimate good. So just writing Ben off as a lost cause, while confirming a certain notion of how the real world works, clashes with the thematic logic of Star Wars as a whole.

I also don’t think they’ll make Han’s death a pointless sacrifice. The mercy and compassion he showed Ben will have consequences - that won’t just be tears shed into the void. I also think - I HOPE - that they will give Leia a glimmer of happiness in the otherwise unrelenting series of losses and disappointments that has been her life. I mean, good lord.

The filmmakers know we’re expecting redemption, though. So they have to push Kylo Ren past what looks like the point of no return. They will want him to SEEM irredeemable. That’s precisely what would make his redemption effective.

Regarding whether he will die: he might. But because Disney is planning a bunch of these films, I think there’s a chance they’ll keep him alive. They’ll be looking for ways to create continuity between the trilogy and future spin-offs, so they might decide that Kylo/Ben has uses beyond his role as VII/VIII/IX villain. If the trilogy were all that Disney was planning, I’d say yes, he’s probably going to die, just because there isn’t enough time to wrap up his storyline without killing him. But if they’re thinking of Star Wars as an open-ended series (as they seem to be), there’s theoretically time in future films to get into Ben’s post-redemption struggles - a storyline that’s never really been done in a Star Wars feature film, unless you consider Han Solo’s arc a redemption story. Which, come to think of it, I do. But redeemed!Ben would be interesting in a “what if Darth Vader had lived long enough to help clean up his mess?” kind of way, which might appeal to future writers/directors who are wondering what new places they can take Star Wars to.

 

Thorin Oakenshield

the jedi order has fallen apart. sod the jedi code. it was pretty stupid to begin with.

but the same applies to him and luke for abandoning children, it's not great and i don't want it either. i'm in the rey random camp.[/quote]

Agree with you. The whole ludicrous theory that she is an OB1 is summed by the thought that we are to believe OB1 abandoned his child and the child then abandoned their OWN child on Jakku. Is it a Kenobi family tradition to abadon kids?!?!?!