ST The Sanctuary - (Dissenters Unite! - Warning on page 232)

Sigh, been reading this thread and occasionally posting that I still can't believe it's about to close.
I got banned once so far due to a claim I was apparently trolling which I wasn't!

But it may be time to bid this thread adieu, but in no way will this be forgotten!

I still haven't watched Rian's Star Wars movie and other than clips may never watch it in its entirety but I do have the two Ewok movies and hope Solo will be at least that good!

May the force be with you all and although not goodbye but rather fare thee well!

 

I thought the day our liberty dies was set on May 25th?

I don’t have a goodbye speech prepared!

I agree.

Just want to add:

I do understand the criticism of people who were turned off by the politics being shoved down their throats. The Star Wars movies have always carried inside their narrative political messages and references to real world events, but George Lucas was way defter in weaving them into the narrative than Rian Johnson is, who tried ideologies like bluntly stated imperatives and came across as borderline stereotyping.

When it comes to movies and entertainment that are meant to reach the minds and the hearts of a vastly diverse audience of different concerns and political orientations, I feel that the way you convey the message is often more important than the message itself. I think most of us are receptive of learning new things and different perspectives from people or characters who we may not necessarily agree with, but if the character you use to convey your messages comes across as a dogmatic preacher who is never challenged, then don’t be surprised if your message is met with resistance and mockery by the audience.

And I think Rian Johnson is pretty bad when it comes communicating his messages via storytelling. They don’t land in as “oh that is interesting perspective” the way they should, instead they are just shot at you like bullet points and hardly defied in the story, which only reduces the worldbuiling and the move itself into a bunch of statements and sweeping generalizations.

Instead of messages being expressed by diverse characterization and actions of individuals (which is how the political messages were expressed in Lucas’ movies) they are laid out in form of almost one-sided rants, which only makes you wanna turn off and switch the program in annoyance. Even when the movie intends to have a nuance and a different message than the one being perceived, that nuance is obfuscated and/or missed by the lack of an organic story progression and character development.

For instance, one “message” of TLJ that everyone interpreted, from dissenters to lovers, is that we must kill the past to move forward or something like that. When it truth, Rian Johnson has clarified in podcasts that the message was that we have to embrace the past and build from it. Which is a radically different message then the majority’s perceptions of the movie, but that is how much of a terrible communicator he is. No wonder why Holdo turned out the way she he was.

 

Well put. Apart from the general didacticism, I think the other problem is that nothing really distinguishes the messages you're supposed to take at face value from the ones you're not. Plus, it seems like sometimes the intended message is present only as "what he said, except the exact opposite". Nobody says, "Actually, we should embrace the past and build on it", nor does anything that happens convey that, we're just supposed to deduce it from the fact that the characters in favour of burning everything down are unreliable sources. Except when they're not.

 

I think Rian Johnson’s articulation of his themes was clumsily done and lacked both subtlety and complexity. In a way I think he outsmarted himself. He took a nihilistic point of view during the whole movie and tried to turn it on its head towards the end. The problem was that those opposing viewpoints of nihilism vs. optimism weren’t juxtaposed in a way that you could clearly see why they chose one vs. the other.

For Luke, he was the ultimate person expressing this nihilistic view and in the end his view was turned by the persuasion of R2D2 and then Yoda. Simple things like an old hologram or a bonk on the head seem to be lacking in profoundness to be the crux to turn the entire nihilistic theme in the opposite direction. If anything the death of Han should have made Luke realize that his inaction and nihilism wasn’t helping anyone, but rather it was allowing his friends to die. It’s the strange order where the scene that should transform him happens before the less profound scenes that do transform him.

Even in the case of Rose where she rescues Finn because you save what you love rather than fight what you hate. While ridiculous on its own it seems even worse when juxtaposed against a similar sacrifice just earlier in the film by Holdo. In fact imagine if as Holdo is trying to sacrifice herself and all the sudden Poe uses some other ship to ram her out of the way almost killing both of them. Then he uses the “saving what you love line” and suddenly kisses her. People would wonder where the hell that came from. Making Holdo sacrifice herself just before Finn’s failed attempt doesn’t make us understand why Rose’s decision was inherently better than Finn’s. In fact it just makes the decision look worse.

If Lucas’s interweaving of multiple themes to create the fabric his films was too complex and subtle, RJ looks like he’s taking a gawdy embroidery and stapling it to his fabric.

 

I think it’s very sad, that your comment is 100% correct

 

It's the way forward, once they end the Skywalker line...things will improve. I for one look forward to seeing Kylo Ren getting chucked down a shaft by our heroes.

 

Let me put it this way, and push the envelope a little further: I don’t think those that think that there is a political agenda - as compared to a message - to the movie are wrong. I would define the difference as a message being the movie showing us a political perspective, while an agenda being the movie telling us that the politics of the writer (or director or producer or studio) are right.

To use my IM2 example again, it makes perfect sense that Tony Stark would be something of a Randian, given his background (both in-universe and out-universe). However, you don’t have to agree with him, and the movie sets up a tertiary antagonist (Senator Stern) and secondary protagonists (Rhodes, Romanoff, and Fury) that don’t agree with him - even if they’re not 100% in disagreement like Stern is. Further, there’s no clear link between what the PTB over at Marvel think and what Tony Stark thinks.

Then, compare to TLJ. Holdo IS a feminist icon, and Poe IS wrong to question her. Canto Bight IS evil and Rose and Finn ARE right in freeing the fathiers. Given what the team over at LFL has said about disagreement with them, it really pulls us out. We’re not seeing Rose’s politics or Holdo’s politics. We’re seeing KK’s and RJ’s politics.

 

The fact this thread always appears as the last commented on shows that there is a need to be able to make our thoughts known.

So what other hugely popular threads are being closed?



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Ahhhhnd .. I'll keep going til this thread is gone.

I just watched TFA for the first time since TLJ came out AND ... I LOVE it . I love all the things that got me back into the fandom - Rey (her leitmotif is soo sweet), her relationship with Finn. Kylo Ben actually being something resembling a villain. Poe being well. A Poe. BB8 not being a deus ex machina of ewok ridiculousness standards. Oh .. and that amazing ending.

Essentially, all of the things that was ditched in TLJ

I feel terrible now.

EDIT: What is the official Disneyplacation for Luke poncing about on the island in his full on Jedi robes in between reverting to a slow death by agarian peasanthood? Genuinely curious.

 

Heh, I remember the first time I watched TFA with my parents. They're immigrants from a country that isn't big on SW and pretty much all they knew about the series was "There's Luke and Darth and Darth is Luke's father." While they did find Rey and Finn charming, overall they thought TFA was a bore and somewhat confusing. At the end of the movie my dad asked "Was the guy in the mask Darth?? What's so great about him, he sucks." They probably made the right call in giving TLJ a pass.

(They did enjoy Rogue One a lot more. My dad came around to appreciating "Darth" after the hallway scene. )

I'm pretty sure it's just what was implied in the movie, i.e. that Luke felt so guilty he decided to mope about on the island in the world's most inefficient suicide attempt.

 

I remember there was this interview with Oscar Isaac where he said he tried to play Poe a certain way (probably like TFA Poe) and Rian Johnson told him not to do it like whatever he was doing.

 

This thread over the last few pages

 

I know, I'll miss it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we are talking about different things? I appreciate what you say above and your right to feel the way you do. However the point I was trying to make is that ever since TLJ was released it has been suggested that the majority of negative feedback of the film was caused by the Alt Right and the use of bots etc etc etc. However more often than not it feels like that reasoning is used to distract from negative critic of the movie by suggesting there is a small number of individuals causing mischief with TLJ reactions for a wider political outcome. What I feel is happening more and more now though is that if you say something against TLJ instead of discussion occurring you get accused of being a part of those groups as an insult to shut your view down or dismiss it. I find it insulting as I don't hate TLJ for any issue of politics and I don't want to be associated with any group just because of the view I have on TLJ. I also believe the groundswell of unhappy fans is quite large.

I hope that makes sense?

 

It certainly does make sense, and I’m using this more as a jumping-off point than anything else.

I guess the point I’m generally exploring is whether those alt-right complaints can have some validity on their own merits, even if generally people dislike the alt-right themselves. So, if someone is complaining about SJW stuff in Star Wars, that greivance could have some legitimacy, and be recognized as such, regardless of whether you agree with their complaint.

 

Well, carrying on from my last post, I think there's an unfortunate (and seemingly random) alternation of heavy-handedness with an attempt at the kind of subtlety where you're supposed to deduce meaning from what isn't said and what doesn't happen- but not accomplished very well. Plus a general tone-deafness.

I'm imagining Rian Johnson's "Return of the Jedi" would have gone something like this:

LUKE: There is still good in him.

KENOBI: He's more machine now than man... twisted and evil.

LUKE: Good point. Well, see you round, Ben!

Luke surrenders to Vader, only to stab him once his back is turned (this is funny). The Emperor dies through other means and the Rebels win. Luke does not turn to the Dark Side or anything like that, though he is a little subdued during the victory celebration.

LEIA: Luke, I know it can't have been easy, killing our father...
LUKE: I did what I had to do, Leia. It was the only way. Come on!

Smiling, they rejoin the party.

ROLL CREDITS​

In interviews, Rian Johnson explains that the movie's ending is tragic, as Luke made a terrible decision and should not have turned to patricide so easily. That's the message we were supposed to get. The clues are plain to see: sure, nobody offers a counter-argument and there are no negative consequences, but remember, Obi Wan Kenobi is a known liar. Obviously we should have realised he was in the wrong, and so should Luke.

 

It's a damn shame TPTB feel the need to close arguably the most popular thread on the whole site...
It's been massively therapeutic though... i will miss it alot

 

Also, RIP Sanctuary

 

There, there. It will be FINE, I tell you.

FINE.

 

The first data are coming out on Solo presales and the numbers are horrendous. Watch for the scapegoating to intensify.

 

Am definitely going to miss this place. I have my tickets for Solo, I caved. But thinking about seeing it makes me want to post and read more here. I don’t want to read people debating why Luke is in character, I have been there. I don’t really rant on TPTB but I do feel that the path Disney is taking has been a shift for the worse, but there is nothing anyone can say that will make me change my mind. He sanctuary has been a place to commiserate about that and am not sure where I can go to get that going forward. Right now Saltier than Crait is the best i have found but really wish there was a venue just like the sanctuary.


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It's been real folks. Only found this site because a few of you found some of my blog posts. Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, and wish you all the best.