Index The Seedy Side V. 2.0 (An Underworld Index/Discussion Thread - disc. crime lords)

Oh yeah, good point. I always forget he went to the academy. That sounds more like the premise for a humor fic.

I mean, he was a good officer later on. Check out him being an excellent general (even if he doesn?t like it) in Solo Command. But until he went through the journey of the OT, I don?t think he had the maturity yet IMHO.

Okay, here?s another can of worms to crack open before I go off on vacation: Harrison Ford apparently felt that Han should sacrifice himself in RotJ for the good of the Alliance. Would this have been a good move, or a big mistake, or what?

 

He had the maturity to do the right thing (free Chewie) even at his own loss (being kicked out). I think Han has always had a problem with institutions and authority in general, he got in trouble with the Hutts too, right? I've always believed that he joined the Alliance and became a general mostly because of Leia. Because the moment she (aparently) rejected him (Isolder and bla, bla, bla ), he quitted.

I've answered this question in the Original Trilogy Forum once, but here I go again.

I think it would have been a mistake. It would have been good for the character, gaining a lot of posthumous glory and honor, but it would have been very bad for Leia. Its a matter of balance, of sacrifice and reward. Luke lost his innocence, the glorified idea of a Jedi father, and gained the redention of Vader and his own status as a Jedi. Han started as a loner and a selfish guy and would had gained friends, love (short) and (posthumous) glory. What about Leia? What does she personaly gain, if not Han?

 

Hello, all my lovely fellow seedy-side writers! I haven't been around in six BILLION years, but I'm here now. I hate arguments, so I'm not even going to start on EU Han. I love Timothy Zahn's Han, George Lucas's Han, and NOBODY ELSE'S. Then end. Have a good day.

Say, does anyone know where the Character Interviews are? I would love to interveiw my OCs, but didn't know where to find it. Help please?

 

Take the words "Would've sucked", and repeat them in time to the Lone Ranger theme. Does that give you any idea how I feel about Harrison's suggestion?

Seriously, it would have been a majorly bad play on George's part if he had actually run with that idea. Han had an interesting story arc, and it would have been an antimclimax to have the character die. And in what matter would Han have died? I vaguely remember reading the original suggestion was to not have him survive the carbonite. A definite anticlimax. Nothing heroic about it...just...pathetic. Yes, it would have been realistic, and perhaps a logical ending for the character that many have viewed as the most real of the OT characters. But this is supposed to be a mythic story, with mythic heroes. That sort of ending...well, okay, Achilles got shot in the heel and died in the Greek stories, but is that we want Han to go out? Not with a bang, not even with a whimper...but just a *poof*, he's gone?

 

Yeah, I totally agree, LM. Han is just to cool to go out without a bang.

 

I?m glad we?ve had so many people bringing their thoughts to the subject of Captain Solo. A belated welcome to the Seedy Side, Golden_Jedi.

Now then. I think I?d agree on the matter of Han?s death. It really wouldn?t have contributed much. Golden_Jedi, you make a good point about Leia. With Han?s death, her character (and Chewie, incidentally) gets nothing but sadness. Not good for the kind of ending RotJ is.

And if leiamoody is right, that is the worst death he could have possibly gotten if he had died. Anticlimactic is an accurate description, especially after TESB?s cliffhanger and the whole first part of RotJ is spent trying to rescue him. Heck, getting hit by a stick with a blind guy and falling into a pit is better.

For Jedi_Eruanne?s reference, or anyone else?s, the Original Seedy Side did an exercise wherein we interviewed our seedy characters to get into their heads and examine what they?re really about. You can find one by Fate, interviewing Jango Fett, on Page 2; I interviewed my detective heroes on the next page. You can check them out if you want, but this is where I?m going with this:

Would anyone be interested in trying that again? I?m thinking a constantly open quasi-challenge. Anybody could wander into this thread any time and post their interview with a seedy character, canon or OC. What do you scoundrels think? Aye or nay?

I?ll be back with a new topic of discussion.

Face

 

YAY!! Deffinitly aye, Nathan. It sounds like a WONDERFUL idea.

 

Thanks for the welcome, The_Face. Unfortunately, the only seedy character I've written so far is a slightly AU Han and he has just joined the Alliance.

 

Hey all! I?m here with the luckiest update of all.

Thirteenth Update

We start off with a new fic for the index, one that welcomes BurntTheMacaroni to the Seedy Side?

A Smuggler?s Life

Timeline: starting 9 BBY and forward. Wasnt sure which to post it in, but it will mainly be things after the destruction of the second death star, which is when Mirax's life takes a nice turn
Genre: General.. Anything from humor to romance to angst, it will change chapter to chapter
Main characters: Mirax, with appearances by the Antilles Family, Booster, Corran (in later chapters), and a few others
Summary: Mirax Terrik is the only daughter of a smuggler, one of the most famous smugglers in the galaxy. Although people might think that life would be sweet, filled with money, riches, treasures and fun, Mirax learned early it was anything but fun. This is a 'series', taking you through different parts of Mirax' life, from the ripe age of 9, to married life.
Status: In-progress

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And, per request, we have a new ongoing writing exercise:

[b][color=teal]Interview with a Scoundrel[/b][/color]

Interview any seedy character, canon or OC, on whatever subjects you want. Don?t go on too long. Keep it under 1,500 words, say. That enough? Mmkay. Then post it here for our enjoyment and discussion. [face_grin]

[hr]

And, on top of that, there?s also a brand-new discussion topic. Behold!

[b][color=teal]?I Fought The Law?[/b][/color]

When criminals are your heroes, what are the enforcers of the law? Police have been portrayed in many stories and movies about underworld characters to be bumbling or evil. The Empire is generally villainous. Planetary police (such as CorSec) are a mixed bag. Of course, some of the seedy stories here and elsewhere are about these traditional good guys, in underworld settings (I?m reminded here of, say, The Untouchables). What I?m getting at is this: How do you portray these authority figures in relation to the seedy side? What are good techniques for writing them? Things like that. Go on, discuss away.

[hr]

[b][color=teal]In Other News?[/b][/color]

If anyone is interested in some inter-thread synergy, [b]Caledre[/b]?s [i]ILL Met in Anchorhead[/i], which is featured here in the Seedy Side index is the Story of the Month at the [link=http://boards.theforce.net/fan_fiction_resource/b10304/24035622/p4/]OC Discussion & Database[/link]. The discussion of this excellent fic begins near the bottom of that page if you follow the link.

Also, congratulations to all Seedy Siders who have been nominated for the Beyond Awards! Keep it up. [face_applause]

Now, discuss, interview, read, reply, etcetera. [face_grin]

 

Anybody? I'll be back with my thoughts on the topic later, I suppose...

 

*puts hand up* I'm here!

Interesting topic, Nathan, I would have to say that my characters dislike the law, but I don't usually protray them as bad, just inconvinient. CorSec are generally rude ( ), police are usually just there to chase after whichever character, and the Empire is always bad. I always take pains to make sure they don't seem bumbling or stupid as that's not true, and is a hidieous steriotype that comes with the package when you write Seedy. I make the Empire evil, but not stupid or idiotic; CorSec is rude and unkind (most of the time), but smart; The Police are a mixed bag as Nathan said, they are generally all over the map. (The cocky, the slightly wacked, the smart, the power-hungry, the just plain stupid...)

Anywho, would LOVE to hear more on the subject.

 

I think you caught a lot of my feelings on the subject, Dorothea. I?ll probably end up repeating you some (and myself, I?d wager ).

Well, in my Galaxy Noir stories, my heroes are private detectives. They?ll work for anyone with credits, but that typically means they are out to catch criminals. They?re kind of law enforcement themselves (actually they were law enforcement, CorSec and Duro police respectively). But at the same time, being freelance, they?re outside the system. Sometimes the cops in an area will work with them, sometimes they?d rather kneecap them.

In the case of the Empire, like many seedy-siders, they?ve been in bloody conflict. In the second, the Imperials were convinced they were harboring a killer. In the third, the Imps were another rival in a race to obtain a Jedi artifact. The detectives have friendlier relations with the New Republic; they know a few Intel operatives.

In Escape from Perdition, however, my hero was a prisoner of the Empire, having been framed for murder. Some prisoners were what you?d consider the ?good guys?, but they had done terrible things. Other prisoners were monsters who deserved to be there. Some of the prison staff were cruel torturers (as was the warden), but others were basically good, and some blurred the lines.

So I generally take these kind of authority figures on a character-by-character basis. Each one will have a different attitude, competency level, so on, so forth. Of course, I mentioned some generalities earlier. The Empire, as a body, has to act like the Empire. They?re not a friendly organization. They?d prefer to blast a smuggler out of the sky than to give him, say, a trial.

I think the important thing to consider if your protagonist is on the wrong side of the law is not to simplify the authorities. Just because they oppose someone we like, it doesn?t mean they have to be the two-dimensional Generic Villain, even if they are Imperial. These are people who, typically, would be portrayed as very decent people. It?s a great opportunity to delve into gray areas. Does your underworld hero kill these people who are just doing their job? Does the cop identify with the smuggler on the lam? Things like that.

I?ll leave it at that for now. Please contribute your own thoughts.

Please.

 

whats up seedy siders. My current wip is... well, dying. I kinda wrote myself into a corner over there, so I've been brainstorming about writing a new underworld fic. Its going to be part noir, part political intrigue complete with a bunch of OCs, both from the underworld and the senate.
I guess I came in here looking for advice, inspiration and maybe a beta...

as for the discussion... Authority figures arent necessarily the bad guys because the main character is on the wrong side of the law. AT the very least, I dont like to portray authority figures as the bad guys. After all, law and order = good, right? Anyways, I would generally like to write the authorities as a hindrance to the criminal main character. If I can make a parallel, imagine that the criminal main character is a little kid that wants to fly and the authorities are the law of gravity. You can't exactly fight the law of gravity, nor can you really antagonize it. Likewise, its hard to antagonize the authorities, because they (typically) represent the law and traditional societal moral values, values that your readers and even your main character criminal might accept as "right". Its also very tough to fight the authorities because they have so much power, so the main character needs to find a way to go around them

oh, and lastly, I actually submitted a response to the Oct 2004 challenge "Only the Good Die Young" a while ago, but I guess Fate didn't record it... Anyways, here's a link to my old submission: Justify my Thug

 

Well, you have most certainly come to the right place. If ever there was a location to look for a beta and/or get advice on the grey relm of gansters, P.I.s, con men, drug dealers, gun runners, slave traders, and traveling salesmen, this would be it. I read your challenge. Really good. I think I remember that one...something along the lines of writing about a grey sider who is old and jaded, or somethin like that. I highly approve of your use of Jay Z, but I'll save a proper RR for the vig's thread. [edit: or not, since it's a locked topic..]
I like your Gravity analogy, by the way.


On to the topic: authority. Ah, sweet, sweet authority. Oh, what would we do without you?
Have more seedy characters to write about, that's what

It's an ancient dilemma: the law isn't going away, but the thief isn't going away either. They can't kiss and make up, but the constant antagonization just can't go on forever. It's almost a guarantee that these two forces are going to reach a temporary equilibrium. That's just how it works. The cop who needs the petty criminal to track down the big fish, the bounty hunter who has to work with the police to get to his target...then there's the crooked cops, who act as the police force's very own seedy side...and then there's the snitch, whose relationship with authority is probably the most complicated of all.

But with the GFFA, there are certain places where it just doesn't matter what authority thinks. Consider: Tatooine has no central government. It's like a frontier. Nal Hutta is actually controled by criminals, and Nar Shaddaa is just plain mob rule. Not to mention the inherent lawlessness of deep space. The greatest flaw of authority in the GFFA is not incompetence or underfunding or want of recruits or crooked cops, it's the galaxy itself. It's just not suited for stability.

 

Well, I do believe that this place will suit me pretty fine

Hi everyone! I'm Luton_Plunder, also known as LP or Luton or any other permutation of the original. I haven't got any fics posted yet 'cause I'm still getting acquainted around here - so many boards, so many threads! I only just found this one

I have a great interest in this kind of story. In my opinion, this seedy side you're talking about is what made Star Wars fundamentally different from traditional rival Star Trek. Star Wars had the shady bad guys and the only-barely-up-to-moral-spec heroes (Infinitely more interesting than the bathed-in-white-light heroes or the even more vexing men-want-to-be-him-and-women-want-to-be-with-him superhero).

So I thought that, when I do come to write my own fic that I'd start in this kind of territory. Its about CorSec officers in fact, so what a good topic for me to arrive for!

All the points so far have been great - I reckon it's way too easy to fall into the trap of characterising anyone that isn't your protagonist as either overtly evil or very obviously miguided. I often thought of making a self-imposed rule whereby I only write stories about evil robots, because thats what alot of my villains used to be

I heard an Interview with Kevin Spacey the other day who said that whenever he's playing an evil guy he doesn't think of them as evil, he just thinks of them as people who are good guys in their own twisted kind of way. And we all know that if Kevin Spacey says it, its gotta be true.

A similar thing that I've always tried to stick by was something I heard on the firefly commentary (You've all heard of Firefly I trust? Yes? Shiny.) Talking about how Adam Baldwin, who plays Jayne, was having trouble getting into the character of a shady mercenary. He eventually got it when he realised that Jayne thought that he was the Hero of the story, he thought the whole show was happening just for him. It's a good philosophy to stick by when characterising the bad guys I reckon, even the minor ones - they all think they're the heroes of the story.

Anyway, just my two cents - I hope I didn't repeat any points too much.
Catch you all around -

LP

 

Vivid_Scripts: Sorry ?bout your WIP That?s never fun. Well, if it can be saved, I hope you manage it. If not, may it R.I.P. See what I did there? Heh heh? Ugh. Anyway, best of luck there, and with your new endeavors!

Ooh! Sounds cool.

As for advice, if you ever have underworld questions, feel totally free to ask. We?re a fairly helpful bunch, when we can be. As for beta readers, I believe the Beta Reader Indexcan help you. I?ll do a SeedySider-style announcement for you. *puts on captain hat*

If anyone is interested in being a beta reader for Vivid_Scripts, he is looking for one. PM him for details, okay? Aye.

Maybe that?ll help, but I?d suggest checking that thread.

I, like Yod, think your gravity analogy is a good one. For criminal characters, the authorities aren?t necessarily directly antagonists (unless he/she has a history with one of the cops, I suppose). They?re more akin to a force of nature. A force of order, in this case.

Aha, excellent point! That?s where we dive into those gray areas. The reader agrees with the people out to get our ?hero?. But obviously the protagonist criminal has something, whether it be a P.O.V. that challenges readers? preconceived notions or simple magnetic charisma.

Thanks for adding your thoughts!

Oh, and thanks for telling me about your old challenge response. It was really well done. I like how you portrayed the character as both a very ?real? person, and also as a representation of all his kind. Just great stuff all around. I?ll add it to the index next update.

Yod, thanks for joining in.

Well, you can always write about them in prison.

Now you?re foreshadowing on purpose. Excellent points on those who blur the lines even further. Look out for a new challenge dealing with something like this soon.

Yes, the thing about the GFFA is the construction of the galaxy almost encourages a thriving underworld. It is all at once the Wild West, the Inner City, and the High Seas. What better place for robbery, thuggery, and piracy? The lawmen hardly stand a chance.

Luton_Plunder, welcome to the Seedy Side!?

Ah, the bane of OC writers, the Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Much has been written about them. One of the nice things about seedy characters is, by design, it?s rather difficult to make them into such a thing. It can be done, but it?s considerably harder to paint someone as doing no wrong when they?re in the business of wrong-doing.

Fortuitous indeed! I

 

alright, here goes my first set of questions for you Seedy Siders:

1) does anyone have intimate knowledge of the coruscant provinces/districts? About 90% of my fic is going to be set on coruscant, and I want to make sure I get the details right. So before I go on making up names of lower city slums and provinces, I wanted to know if anyone had any information they could throw my way. So far, all I know is that Dex's diner is situated in "CoCo Town"

2) Names. How do you find appropriate names for your characters? I spent hours banging my head against the wall before I found four names I liked for some of my main characters, but Im still not sure if they fit in with the GFFA/Star Wars universe.

3) what sort of slang do your seedy side characters use in your fics? I know a lot of RL street slang, but before I start throwing that into my fic, I kind of want to get an idea of what's already commonly accepted as GFFA street slang.

What I really want to do is paint a clear picture of the urban life that goes on in the lower cities of coruscant. I'm probably gonna end up having half a dozen important characters that are from the lower city. A lot of them might end up being from different neighborhoods, so I want to give each character a different voice and a different set of slang. A hoodlum from New York wouldn't use the same terms as a cholo from Los Angeles, right?

Anyways, the fic is going to be titled "The Dauphin", and its going to be told almost exclusively from first person. I saw Sin City recently, and I fell in love with the sprawling first person narrative style of storytelling.

ALSO: forgot to say, thanks for good responses on my old submission. Glad you guys enjoyed it

 

I don't do much with Coruscant, more of a deep-space/Nar Shadaa kind of girl. But I would recommend borrowing the SW planets and moons book (can't remember what it's called, sorry!) from the library. It's super spiffy.

Names are my favorite thing to do. I come up with a sound I like or a letter I would like it to start with, then use lots of 's and Js and Ks to make it with. Jumbles of vowels are coo' too..... Like with the name of one of my main characters from Smuggler's Inc, I decided I wanted his name to start with a 'T', because I couldn't think of very many boys names that started with a 'T', it had to sound manly too (if you follow me) and I came up with, Treyer. Hope that helps. (but probably not. )

Lingo? Make it up. I don't think there is any set GFFA seedy lingo, except maybe 'deathsticks'.... Seriously though, I totally want to read your story when you start posting it. Sounds exciting.

 

Coruscant can be a fun place to play. There's so much potential it's mind boggling. One thing I like about it is that it's multicultural/multispecieal by nature, but still retains its own identity. I think that's got something to do with it having no actual ground.
which is another thing I love about Coruscant. There's always something below you, and always something above you. That always inspired my creative centers, ever since I heard about the place in the Zahn series. (and again in Dune...and again in Do Robots Dream of Eletric Sheep...and again in the 5th Element...) Really, there's no planet quite like it (except for the one in Dune...and the one in )

Rule of thumb - It's either a Town or a district, depending on whether it's defined culturally or politically...respectively. I prefer using actual names as designators, as it sounds more natural and comfortable, but some coruscant districts are apparently nothing more than numerical designations. Take that how you wish.

Now slang, I love slang. I've been studying GFFA slang behind the scenes for a long time now. There are a couple threads on the topic - swearing, earth word replacement, general stuff - but here's something to give you an idea:

"Kriff" is this imp swear word of choice, and because of that, it's also most of the developed galaxy's swear word of choice. Where it comes from, nobody knows (etymologically, I mean. It 'comes from' Zahn) I like it because it's kind of funny, but I'd have trouble using it for real in a story without snickering.
"Death Sticks" are a popular chemical drug that I doubt chemists actually call 'death sticks'. It probably has other slang names along with that one.
It's widely believed that the "Spice" Han smuggled around was slang for some sort of powdery drug. "Dune"s own drug called Spice supports this, as a lot of Frank Herbert's mythology inspired Lucas.
"Frell" is a common swear word around fics here. It actually originates from a sci fi channel show called "Farscape", but the word's popularity got it adopted into the GFFA.
saying "Poodoo" would reveal someone to be of Tatooine origin.
While using "Hell" in a curse would probably get you pegged as Corellian.
"Damn" is probably as universal as "Kriff"
"Nicobac" is the GFFA equivalent of a cigarette. Though they're probably more futurey.
"Caff" would be coffee.
I've heard "Tek" be used to identify a Blastec.

I have employed in the past a form of underworld communication called the OCR hotline. It's a way for Organized Crime Rings to stay connected with various going downs across their sector/system/planet/district. It's essentially messages that move encrypted through the holonet under all the offical stuff. I'd imagine that anyone sending a message this way would be talking with a lot of slang and code, encryption or no encryption. Just to be safe.

That's all I got.

 

YAY! I totally just saved your slang refrence guide, Yodimus! I've always wanted to have a guide like that. I like that 'hell' pegs you as a Corellian, and 'poodoo', a Tatooine... resident. (what do you call someone from Tatooine? Tatooinian? Tatooinite? A Tatoo? )

 

Vivid_Scripts, I?ll try to address your questions, though I see others are already doing a better job of it.

1) Yeah, Coruscant is so enormous and diverse, you can pretty much make your own districts and neighborhoods to serve your purposes. Yod makes a point that some are simply numbers, but I imagine most of those also have nicknames among locals. The only one I know about from canon is Invisec, which is pretty much purely populated by non-humans. Awful, awful place at the bottom of the planet. Sometimes they don?t even get daylight.

2) Names are generally a very personal thing. Myself, I like to use names that reflect something of what the character?s like, but if done poorly, that can come off as dumb. Sometimes I?ll grab a word that pertains to them, and start borrowing letters and sounds from it. Jumble it up and toss in some other sounds that make it pronounceable (very important).

Also, sometimes you can use first names that are from Earth but semi-unusual (Han, Luke). Just keep from common ones. Nobody wants to hear about Corey Calrissian (Great now someone?s going to inform me they?re in Part 17 of the Adventures of Corey Calrissian epic and they?ve just been chosen to cross over to official novels?)

Follow your instincts. Maybe bounce your names off someone.

3) I?d agree different terms for different places makes sense. Yod?s list is a pretty good one. When that doesn?t cover it, make it up, I guess.

Update still coming...

 

Fourteenth Update

Today?s update is quite challenge-centric. It starts with a response from Vivid_Scripts to the old challenge ?Only the Good Die Young.? It?s not this late, it?s just that we here at the Seedy Side failed to index it. But here it is, and it?s very good:

Justify My Thug

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And now a new challenge for the month of July (and onward).

[b][color=teal]?Gone Legitimate?[/b][/color]

This month?s challenge is one I thought fit with our current topic of discussion nicely. All you have to do is write about a hardcore criminal taking an honest job from the authorities. Just two main things.

1) Notice that this has to be something [i]honest.[/i] For example, you can?t just have the Empire hire a bounty hunter to do their dirty work. You could, however, have the hunter capture the bountyhead (who would need to deserve imprisonment) without breaking any laws.

2) This should be a seedy character who isn?t comfortable with legitimate work. Think hired killers and remorseless enforcers over shippers who?ll take legal or illegal deliveries. That kind of thing. Just so it?s not easy on the seedy-sider.

Other than that, it can be in any format. Just post it in the proper forum (Before, Beyond, Saga) with the challenge name in the title of the thread. Then send me or SeedySider a link to your story, and it will be indexed.

If any of this doesn?t make sense, please ask questions. I should have my response up soon, which may help clarify the intention of this challenge.

Oh, and remember, you can always submit a late entry for the other challenges. And the ?Interview with a Scoundrel? one is ongoing of course.

 

got a few more questions for you seedy siders:

A) Drug use in underworld fics. Theres going to be a scene in my fic where the main character is drugged. How much is too much? I'm probably going to end up describing, the effects that the drug has on his consciousness... after all, this main character is also the narrarator.

B) The Value of a credit. How much is a lot? In ANH, Luke said that 17K credits was "almost enough to get a ship". How much would the average bounty pay? How much would "big game" (think han solo here) pay?

 

All depends on the species, I think. With humans...well, what's a drug and a general idea of its effects should be obvious. But with aliens, those effects could be totally different. In fact, what could be a powerful, addictive drug to humans could be as harmless as sugar to, say, a Bothan. Or vice versa.
But overall, anything illegal will be found quite profusely in the underworld. Even if that illegal thing is a harmless sugery substance that the dominant race of the district find themselves uncontrollably and detrimentally hooked on.
That said, I have no clue - outside of the stun gun - what drugs in the GFFA are specifically classified as sedatives. I can't imagine spice being much stronger than weed. And that would be a pain in the butt to OD on. I do suspect deathsticks to be mildly hallucinagenic. But anything stronger will probably have to be made up. Heck, most of what I've just said has been conjecture anyway.

Luckily, with first person, "vague" is a valid counter attack to "I'm fuzzy on the details"


Someone else should take the next question. I think there may have been a thread on that in the past, but I can't help you otherwise.
Clever Challenge, Face. Gots me thinking.
Then again...I still haven't gotten around to the last challenge..heh

 

A term I've seen in the EU thrown around for a drug alien species are addicted to (particularly by Han) is "salt", especially prominent in the variety of aliens we seen in the Cantina in ANH; like Talz, and Arcona.

What it actually is, I don't know though.