Lit The woman that broke the galaxy... and Palpatine!

This thread has gone into some weird directions...

 

Yes… I’m not sure what your point is?

The history of Palpatine’s character will never be identical to the history of Abrahamic understanding of the Serpent/Satan/Lucifer/Devil/Iblis. Lucas and McDiarmid did compare them, but they’re not the same. But even if they were the same, that character from Abrahamic understanding (and all its variations) is still not as simple as “pure evil” as you implied.

 

I apologize for my role in perpetuating this derail(though it should be noted I didn’t start it).

Anyways, the question is ultimately what sort of villain do you want? To use a game of thrones comparison-you have say Ramsay Bolton, who while having a somewhat deprived childhood, is well just born rotten.

Compare this to Joffrey or Viserys who are more products of unhealthy and malignant environments. Nature or nurture?

I think you can have both sorts of villains. On the nature category-it’s further divided between the spiritual category and the psychological category-Evil in a straight metaphysical sense vs pathological problem.

And I think the latter sub category is what we are debating here.

 

Why? This is hardly offtopic, while tangential, it is very interesting and nobody complained about it as far as I am aware as civilised debate was enlightening and can easily fuel the debate this topic is about if the curveball is played back into the field.

I beg for No lock, no. no!

Now, back to Palpatine:

We spoke of different versions of Palpatine in Legends and Canon, we spoke of his role and mythological/religious comparisons, but there is another component to consider.

While symbolically Palpatine/Sidious can be paralelled to "Ultimate Evil" or "Evil from Birth" tropes, it does not mean he has to be, or lessen his character if there is more to the superficial pov of his "current evil" contrasted with his past life and path to evil. I think the debate is going in circles because people are missing something in their picture of Palpatine and the universe as a whole.
Palpatine being ultimate evil, or evil from birth, cannot be accepted if one believes in life and birth being good and corruption of goodness happens to create evil. Likewise, the other camp does not like to accept that, preferring a black and white pov rather than complicated grey and individuals evolving. Some love stereotypes and that is ok, regardless if the universe works like that or not or only seems to superficially. But without endless debate if one is true or the other, lets take a third pov into account that might unify both perhaps if one is open to that approach:

Rebirth. While SW does shy away from it, it is all over it. Between the lines, but not spoken out directly. There are no Jedi looking for the rebirth of a Force Dalai Lama. There is no ancient Jedi reborn in a future Forceuser. And there is no Avatar lineage unrelated to bloodlines of families. But SW mythological influences and overall concept would fit nicely with Rebirth as a concept and pov, in and out of universe.

IF Rebirth exists in the GFFA, not just as bodyhopping, which we will come back to shortly, then something like Karma might exist. If the Soul eternal is living many lifes and while very separate characterisation-wise, the string of lifes is tied together by karma, then a soul can have baggage and a lot of karma that may lead to someone being born with a lot of this baggage to work through in the next life. This could be equated to be born evil, while not being born actually evil but rather tainted and with a heavier payload to overcome that may easier corrupt someone early one even. If Palpatine in a previous life was a nasty bastard, the next life pays him back and punches him in the face hard and often hoping he realises the other side of the fist is not as fun as he thought it to be back then. Some learn the lesson, others rather are broken more by it and the wheel of pain and life repeats until lessons are learned.
Well obviously I am no authority on karma, hinduism, or any of that. But in broad strokes some of this may unify the afore debated extremes by placing "evil birth" in a larger context that makes it not evil since inception but evil due to karma or failing ones karmic baggage and placing the origin of some karmic troubles in previous lifes rather than the current one.


Now to bodyhopping, we know it was shaky if a Sith lineage existed via bodyhopping or not, probably not, but the potential alone opens another can of worms: How much is a Sith in control of himself? How many souls (All the Sith?) are fighting in there for control? How is the naming ceremony like in ROTS an act of posession of dark spirits that give a name and new identity to a Sith candidate? In TOTJ Sith spirits posessed Jedi when Exar Kun smashed a Holocron. Later Sith naming ceremonies sound like they bond with an evil spirit. Even if they are not, the original, Anakin, is still somewhere in there and can fight back. Even if they sell their soul to the devil (Gods of the Sith) they may get it back when they realize it is something that can't be sold and that they were tricked kinda.


Palpatine and this debate turned towards the reason for his darkness. Was it Plagueis? Was he before him already? Was it due to an untold story aka Underworld and an unknown woman? Were there several reasons and steps to growing darker and darker or was there one major event merely?
People hated any way to excuse Palpatines evil-ness. Least of all blame it on a woman. But what if she broke him in another way? What if he already was evil, on the path to where he would be later. And she broke that man in that she broke the perfect evil he would have become by showing him another way and giving him the one thing he did not think he still could have: Hope.
I think yes we need to contrast Palpatine to other falls like Anakin who killed his love in blind rage, not by choice. Nor Dooku who choose to kill Sifo-Dyas. Nor Maul who had no choice trained from birth.
Palpatine was a man that had given up on the galaxy and everyone and his descent was his only path left. He had resigned, accepted it, even begun to cherish it as what others would see as a fall would for him be a rise to true greatness and power. And then there was this one woman that changed everything, changed him, threatened to stop Plagueis plans, Palpatines plans, and he could not get rid of her, nor forget or ignore her. Was he torn between Light and Dark like Kylo Ren thx to her all of a sudden? Did Plagueis know or find out about her?

If she broke this Sith in a way that pulled him not towards good but rather halted his fall in a stalemate between both sides, she was his anchor that by cutting it loose, would lead to his descent deeper, but not as her fault, but rather his choice and fault. Would that satisfy those that dislike to put blame to a woman? Or who prefer Palpatines agency instead of excusing his fault?
As we know the story would have involved the underworld and criminal elements, this woman needn't be an angel or good person herself, just someone to catch his attention and by tempting him to join her adventure prevent a worse evil than the one they might commit together.



Also I begin to wonder if this woman, if alive during Underworld, somehow having survived Palpatine and Plagueis, might be tied to the tale of Darth Plagueis the Wise in ROTS.
Sidious tells the story and we know he is no reliable narrator. Who is the loved ones Plagueis could save from death but not himself? Even the Plagueis novel deviated from this element rather having him experiment on others he did not love merely and also dying drunk rather than in his sleep. So what else about the story is off and not tied to Plagueis but rather Sidious himself?
Sidious was trying to master his Master's art to cheat death, but he too, could only save others (loved or not) from certain death, like when he personally rushed to save Anakin Skywalker on Mustafar from fatal injuries not just via medtech and timely arrival but also with the Force, Sith techniques and maybe draining Padmés broken hearted life to save him, if possible. Sidious could save others but not himself via redirecting their lifeforces. Did old man Sidious fear dying in his sleep one day, unable to save himself? Is the story about him?
And if it is, could he save a loved one from death (instead of Plagueis)? Did he once have to kill her for his Master but saved her afterwards, but their fallout lead to her survival and hating him and the Underworld story later on?
Also what if this woman had a child with him he never knew about and thought had died with her before he brought her back? Rhyming with Anakin's children and lack of knowledge as Lucas loves to do.


Thoughts?



PS: What if the Woman that broke Palpatine is a known entity... and rather met him later than we previously thought? What if it is the one that got away alive and he was looking for galaxywide... that he feared due to her knowledge about him and a threat even he feared? What if the woman that broke Palpatine is none other... than Vergere?

 

"if one believes in life and birth being good and corruption of goodness happens to create evil"-not everyone believes this tho? Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're point is here. Are you saying being "born from evil" is a surface affectation by virtue of the meaning of born and evil its really not.

You mean reincarnation. I recall I read an article age ago, before the disney buyout that claimed Legacy introduced reincarnation to the SW universe. Cade was Anakin reborn, and so forth. (I have never been able to find it since). This is an interesting concept, and would fit with SW' eastern metaphysical inspirations, but it has never been formally an aspect of SW that I know of. Though to be fair-supernatural encounters' eschatological universalism(with Palpatine as the last man to leave Chaos) does work well with this concept.

I'm sorry but this is just an utter ruination of Palpatine's character. Palpatine's primary character traits are overwhelming ambition and selfishness. Narcissism without the slightest hint of humility. What does "perfect evil" mean? Anakin is a flawed man, but not fundamentally selfish or malicious. Palpatine is. So you're comparison falls rather flat. Plagueis did not cause him to dwell in the darkness, he was found in it already.

Palpatine caring about the galaxy completely destroys the essence of his character. Why on earth would any woman, or indeed any creature have any effect on Palpatine's megalomania?

This doesn't remove his agency as much as his inherent solitude. Palpatine has no friends, no lovers, no family. You are at best a useful tool, to him or an obstacle. You positing an external figure having some deep spiritual or emotional impact on him, utterly ruins the character that all SW media(including TROS really) have established.

Giving Palpatine anything approaching a sob story is just a poor idea, I'm sorry to say.

Vergere being taken in by Palpatine, charmed and then discovering who he really is and running for her life can be compelling, what you are suggesting is just not a good idea. It makes Palpatine a much less compelling, indeed much less menacing villain.*

*Witness the way Vader has been portrayed in recent media, fan and official-always in near tears over Padme, a destroyed man beneath the armor. I am not saying villains need always not have sympathetic aspects, but we really need less of this-because it makes villains less menacing-both to the protagonists and the audiences.

One of the aspects of Palpatine that I like-is his menace. He plots, schemes, and sometimes cuts loose with incredible displays of power-this gives him a presence on screen or on page complements his "evil from birth" aspect. What you are suggesting would undermine not only his characterization, but his effectiveness as a villain.

 

There’s another very relevant canon character who possibly inherited some story DNA from Underworld’s heartless gangster woman. Maybe we don’t talk about her enough.

Qi’ra from the Solo movie was also based on classic film noir femme fatale characters. Specifically, she was based on Kathie Moffat from the movie Out of the Past. This character, like Qi’ra, is initially portrayed as innocent. But as the movie progresses, she is revealed to be a dangerous woman after all. She brings ruin to the lives of those around her.

“Out of the Past stands the test of seventy years as a pioneering look at the femme fatale in all her amoral glory. She is pure fatal, predatory beauty….”

I can imagine a young Senator Palpatine being betrayed by a woman who seemed good at first. Years later, once she’s become the head of a criminal organization targeted by the Empire, she may ruminate on whether she contributed to what he became in time. But maybe that’s just her view, her regrets. Still, because the story of their past is only seen indirectly, the audience might be left to wonder if perhaps there’s a kernel of truth to it.

I can see Lucas approving an ambiguous look at Palpatine’s past. We get some facts, but then some personal interpretation that may or may not be true. It’s a story told to characters in the present, subjective, possibly flawed or untrue. But also likely to be partially true.

As a side note, Qi’ra has a very interesting storyline ongoing in the comics right now, which pits her directly against Palpatine and Vader.

And an additional side note, Qi’ra was originally called Kura. And mythical Persephone’s name was originally Kore. This connection is tenuous, but I like the parallels. Queens of the Underworld.

 

I always read Q’ira as an inverse of Bria Tharen. Though that might be a loose description.

As for Underworld, I was under the impression it was to be set in the dark times. That said, it just seems like a really bad idea. (Lucas does have bad or self defeating ideas from time to time).

Not to mention “evil woman is responsible for the central villain of the story” is hackneyed and leaves a rather sour taste in one’s mouth.

I think Darth Plagueis does well to establish Palpatine as a sociopathic teenager, who if he ever betrayed, would take it as a failure on his part. Not a crushing of idealism or honesty. If Lucas had wanted a gentler young Palpatine-again I have to say, this is a very very very bad idea.

 

Underworld was indeed set during the dark times. The gangster character would have been someone who knew Palpatine in the past. Some speculate she’d be responsible for an uprising in the Coruscant underworld that Vader would be dispatched to stop.

So it doesn’t seem the intention was to show her and Palpatine in the past. More likely this would come up as dialogue when Vader confronts her. My guess is the audience wouldn’t have known for sure how much of what she said was true. She’s supposed to be a villain, so she could have just been lying to throw Vader off his game or to bide her time for escape. But by having this happen through dialogue from an unreliable narrator, the audience is given hints at Palpatine’s backstory that may or may not be true. It would not fit what we know of him, but what if some of it were true?

That kind of ambiguity would’ve been interesting. Controversial for sure. But it’s the kind of gray area that not only fits the noir genre well, it also aligns with how Lucas likes to introduce things that make the fans and critics go nuts.

 

Indeed. Given the Underworld story focussed on Vader sent against her and Palpatine rather offscreen, we merely have her pov and Vader wondering about his master most likely.

I could imagine Lucas sow doubt in the fans about Palpatine only to crush it right before the credits roll. What if Vader sees paralells and wonders if he can use them against Palpatine or her against him? Only for Palpatine to crush her without remorse.. but with Vader gone and everyone off again, alone, in private the last scene shows him sentimental after all keeping something off her dead body as a souvenir for memory.
It may go against some fans Palpatine, sure, but it would be typical Lucas.

 

Seems possible indeed, although the current Qi’ra is less about noir elements and more about using Palpatine's methods against him - understandably, since she is his apprentice's apprentice thus making her his "granddaughter" Maybe the mysterious gangster lady was somewhat his teacher of political manipulation (while Plagueis in this version of Sidious' backstory was even more focused on studying midi-chlorians than in Legends after the failed assassination attempt on him).

 

“Typical Lucas” in this case is the same thing as the holiday special and the worst dialogue of the prequels. And the planned midi chlorian ST.

Lucas sometimes has bad ideas or good ideas he implements poorly. This is a bad idea.

 

@Darth Invictus you told us you dislike it now countless times. I accept your dislike, but how does that further the discussion of those here that find merit in these ideas? I welcome your pov and ideas, but I am a bit annoyed by constant dislike just for telling people you do not like it. Please accept in return that we do like the idea and want to debate it.

Regarding the Microbiotic World Lucas ST and Holiday Special, in another topic I detailed how I think his microbiotic world may have looked like and I would have loved it. Though that is quite different from his Archives the Prequels interview and mention of his ST ideas with Maul in there. As for the Holiday Special, that was mostly out of Lucas hands and the elements he personally did contribute were actually good, like the animated short section and the concepts of Kashyyyk and other bits. The bad stuff was kinda forced upon him as far as I am aware. And in his movies, OT or PT, I am not aware of anything bad or poorly executed. Merely of elements misunderstood by some fans, even a majority of them at times like JarJar Binks or other elements that are far more than comic relief. Here again his interviews with Paul Duncan added a lot of clarification.

Instead of disliking the concept alone of a woman and Palpatine in whatever relation or connection we do not know anything about, how would you do it? What would you do with Palpatine and the storybits we know from Underworld, few as they are, to craft a good story that fits them all? Lets be constructive here instead of just disliking stuff.

 

Regarding Underworld-I never looked much into it beyond the Wookieepedia page. From what I saw, I imagined more a sort of adult level intrigue/drama show. You’d have legends characters, and more depictions say of Coruscant, the imperial palace, and so forth.

I never really imagined Palpatine I guess in it(then again I didn’t give the show much thought).

Regarding the concept itself, Lucas is not a man who has a set of sacred priors that must remain(well he does but the man is anything but consistent), so a more “human” Palpatine strikes me as something that he would have thought of, and wanted to do.

Why? Who knows.

If I were doing Underworld as I imagined it-I see it as focusing on the imperial elite, on the criminal elite, and on the struggles of characters like Mara Jade, Ferus Olin, and potentially surviving Jedi. Palpatine and Vader’s appearances would be rare but significant. I would be more interested in worldbuilding-what is Coruscanti corporate life like? How do courtiers at the imperial palace interact with petitioners and lobbyists?

Perhaps a sort of SW Frank Underwood style show. Violence and conflict would be shown sparingly-assassinations, sabotage, occasional portrayals of the empire suppressing insurrections.

The show would focus on a multitude of characters, and would go on IU until maybe the founding of the rebel alliance.

 

I meant more what you would do with Palpatine as you see him and a woman in that storyline if it has to happen, not how you would do a completely different show. The specific episode/arc.

 

I wouldn’t do it at all, I took you to mean Underworld itself.

 

I would definitely have enjoyed seeing Mas Amedda, Sly Moore, Sate Pestage, The Peculiar Hat Crew, etc. in Underworld. I would enjoy seeing how people living on the core worlds perceive the Empire and Emperor: Do they think Sheev is a well-meaning figurehead and that the Empire kills people without his permission? What do they think the truth about the Jedi, the Separatists, and the clones is?

 

SW as a rule focuses on backwaters and relatively under developed places. (Except for the Jedi temple and Senate scenes in the PT). Showing the SW galaxy’s equivalent of New York City, London, Paris and DC is really interesting. Imperial metropole, cosmopolitan ecumenopolis, “the world that never sleeps”-in all it’s glory and grandeur. And of course the shadowy underbelly of such places.

That to me is what Underworld, by the title alone ought to have been about.

 

Be glad we got Andor for that! It has all of this.

But what is Andor missing of this cosmopolitan side of the galaxy? The show gives us lots of places and scenes about mundane people and everyday scenarios. But what is missing? And how would Underworld have shown that, given its focus on Bounty Hunters, Vader etc. and another set of elite instead of Andor's normal folks.

Operating in a modern myth mindset Lucas can't escape using tropes, stereotypes and Campbellian or other archetypes, which in most cases is either heroes or antiheroes or at the extreme, a mundane normal person becoming one. All else is tangential to his storytelling mostly while shining bright in the spotlight in Andor itself.

So this woman this topic is about, that can't be headcanoned away, how would she have been portrayed in Lucas style vs. in others?

Is she, despite crime lady status, an hero or antihero compared to Palpatine? Is she a villain? Regardless of his evil or origin, what could she be and what should she be in that story?

We had Qi'ra analogues. We had other ideas about her, even connecting her to Talzin and other ladies Palps dabbled with.

Would be fun if she has red hair... or leaves a little kid at Palpatines doorstep called Mara Jade.

Given Underworld jumps quite some around the timeline with stuff set right after ROTS and stuff later as the rumored storyline would even feature Han, Lando, the Falcon and Kessel Run, I do wonder when exactly this woman arc would have been set and what thus as per placement might have been tied into it.

 

Cory Barlog already told us who she was and what she was like.

 

Palpatine-the end of a thousand year sith revenge plot, the man who smiled and shouted “unlimited power” and told Lord Vader “do not hesitate show no mercy” was broken by some mean gangster.

I’m sorry, this is a ridiculous idea that completely renders Palpatine into a joke. A non entity, no one would ever be able to take him seriously as a villain again.

Did Lucas or whoever else considered this ever realize “wait a moment, this doesn’t make Palpatine sympathetic, it makes him pathetic?”

I forgot, this is Lucas we’re talking about so the question answers itself.

 

Well, Palpatine is a monster, but what level of heartless gangster could be worse? The Sith for all their chaos, strife and war want their own kind of order, rule of the strongest. Palpatine is no Anarchist. He is precise, he is deliberate, not like other monstrous characters from f.e. DC who did terrible cruel things to be despised.
Lets not forget Palpatine in TCW, a show aimed at children, was shown kidnapping, torturing and offscreen killing most likely Forcesensitive children for his evil experiments! How do you top that? Murder and abuse of children ranks highest amongst the despicable acts in most peoples minds.

So, even if this gangster lady is into human trafficing, murder, abuse including or children, babies and whatnot... how could she be worse than Palpatine? She can't be. Thing is, there is only one way she could destroy him as a person and I doubt Underworld would go that route or show it if aimed at children as well.

Some who lived through abuse later themselves abuse others. Are we supposed to believe she destroyed him by abusing him somehow when he was a child? Cosinga either never knew or did not want any public outrage and thus covered it up with merely therapy for Palps but not enough help. Palps lashing out as a youngster and as adult getting worse given trauma?

Were Plagueis not set as a male Muun, I'd say what if Darth Plagueis is this woman, based on the TPM Sith Witch design that became Asajj Ventress for TCW or the female Maul Sithwitch that became Talzin.

Or can we assume Lucas used other unused concepts from his PT writing days for Underworld? Like Episode 3 planned a reveal that Palpatine is Anakin's father or grandfather but shrugged away from that luckily? Maybe he was involved with Shmi after all, and denied his child believing it to be dead. That'd be cruel and could send someone down a dark path.
Heck I now got the weird idea in my head that what if... after Palpatine lost his love and kid to this heartless gangster believing them dead while just... gone, he compensated by kidnapping Maul to train him from infancy... or later on the same with Mara Jade.

Ok, lets close this post with this... a heartless gangster woman that trashed Palpatine when he was young? What if it was Maz Kanata?

 

You’re assuming that George wouldn’t retcon a lot and whitewash Palpatine into being a less evil character to prop this new character up. Lucas certainly isn’t above doing something like that, he operates entirely on flights of fancy.

 

Two questions:

1. Did Cory mean that she was literally a hardcore gangster or was he speaking metaphorically? To me, it reads as the latter.

2. How old was Sheev when this happened? If it was during his childhood, then yes, a cruel gangster could definitely have scarred him for life. Think Lady Proxima times ten.

 

Most of Cory’s quote is him talking about how emotional the story made him and how much it blew his mind that Palpatine could be so sympathetic. He didn’t really go into it beyond that.