There are no plot holes in the Saga

I'm sorry Darth-Adroit.

And I'm sorry to others who were offended by my brash response.

 

And at this point, when Obi-Wan asked this, the twins respective 'careers' hadn't exactly been mapped out yet.
You know, Leia's 'career' of becoming Senator of Alderaan AND secretly a Rebel Alliance leader.


- TOSCHISTATION

 

but he could have done both at the same time....

Olie: you catch on quickly....
Anakin: I'm gonna be a Jedi Knight...

Obi Wan reaches into his robes
Obi Wan: Here is the paperwork you need you need to fill out. Application to be a Jedi, Health insurance selection form. Donor card. Dont forget to fill out the part about who get's your lightsabre should you turn to the darkside and burn to death in a fiery lava pit.
Anakin: I want my son to have my sabre..
Obi Wan:Jedi are not allowed to have Children. Lets take care of that now....

HisBuzzzzz (lightsabre noise)

Anakin: Very high pitch scream!

 

Long overdo....

So if you drive your car off a cliff you are a pilot (though not for long)

No, because you no longer have any control.


Look the Term PILOT has NOTHING to do with how many AXIS' you are manuevering through. And while most people are not well educated in the meaning of the word - here we go

Yeah, I did look it up before my last post. You'll notice that as referenced as a verb it only effects things on water and in the air.


Hovercraft Pilot

Ah, here we go, RL examples, this is what I am looking for. Aren't overcraft primarly for traveling across bodies of water, though? I know they can go over land, but what is their primary use?


Even still, I am not sure where in the movies they ever reffered to a "pod pilot". Maybe I am missing something essential here.

This is a good point. GL never uses the term, in film, to describe anyone doing anything but air/space piloting. It is my understand that the pod racing section is where Anakin is suppose to be showing his piloting skills and prove that he was already a great pilot when he met Ben. Didn't GL say this some where? If he didn't, we could conceed this as a non-issue as it relates to the pods.


If the script says that they are called pilots, then that's what they are called. How is this a plot hole again?

Improper use of English language to describe things in plot is what I would call a plot hole. I realize not everyone agrees, but that's just where we'll have to agree to disagree. Different people have different definition of plot holes.


I said what I did because of the premise being that the PT, and the PT alone, is the cause of there being any plot holes in Star Wars.

Ah, yes, I see. I won't dispute it without at least knowing examples of what you feel are OT plot holes. But mostly I am speaking of plot holes, or "inconsistances", that were created by creative decisions in the PT that effected its relation with the OT.


Agree with you a bit here. I don't mind the change so much, just that GL's 'explanation' doesn't sit right with the movies as a whole.

That's cool.


We're talking about flaws in the movies themselves, not necessarily the flawed 'explanations' used by the author of the films.

Exactly.


Right. I just don't see how those things you find questionable are engendered solely by the Prequels.

Again, I'm mostly talking about how the PT ties back to the OT. Not the PT, in and of itself.


But even with the 'grief' given to him by Yoda, Obi-Wan still insisted on honoring QGJ's wish. And if Obi-Wan had used that as an 'out', to regain any credibility or 'merit' with Luke after the truth came out, he would still be putting the blame onto someone who couldn't defend themselves

I don't follow this. How does Ben telling Luke about the man who found and freed his father become an excuse for Ben not to own up to making a conscious choice to train Anakin? If Ben wanted an excuse, he could have made one anyway, no?


So, 'hunting' qualifies him as a pilot.

Can you say, 'plot device'?

Uh? Oh, "canyon", my bad. Yes, even though I call a canyon canon does not mean I used the word correctly


He was never told he had to renounce his activities with the Alliance, once he started training.

He kind of was. He didn't want him leaving Dagobah until he was fully trained, regardless of what went on in the Rebellion.


What I said about every line in the OT that refers to the backstory doesn't necessarily have to be manifested in the PT, in which I gave examples. That's why I say that 'x or y logic' or 'fitting' isn't everything here.

I think if something else is shown, such as Obi-wan having only one master, not Yoda, then you should tell the audience why. Otherwise, I agree. The PT didn't have to show Yoda train Ben, but if it was going to show QGJ train Ben then explain why he said Yoda trained him. I just don't agree with leaving details like this

 

I'd say a more realistic answer is that it would be a plot-hole if it was an example from 'real life'. But since it's SW, and SW establishes the 'misuse' of the word pilot, it really isn't a plot-hole, going by Star Wars defined 'rules'.....

Firstly, I don't feel that there are legitimate plot holes in the OT. Which is why I say it 'tongue-in-cheek' when I refer to plot holes in any SW movie.

Second, I stress "plot holes being in the OT only because of the PT" because I believe it's a bit misleading. Misleading because one could argue that the OT already had 'problems' - notice the quotes - all by themselves without the PT's help.

As far as the PT creating holes, I disagree because in order for there to be holes, there has to have been 'solid facts' that were changed. More precisely, 'solid facts' that weren't solely for Luke's benefit or merely for dramatic effect, but moreover specific and general knowledge for the audience's consumption.
What I see as actually the case, was that POVs that were to Luke's benefit were 'changed', or more accurately, didn't pan-out to be true given the Prequels.

Well, that's not much different than what I'm saying. The notion that specifics of the PT's story created and placed 'holes' in an OT that was otherwise 'perfect'. In other words, the problems originating from the PT, and not the OT.

Because if he tells Luke about this yet other Jedi, who played a big role in Anakin becoming a Jedi, it's kind of hard for Ben then to try to take all the 'blame' onto himself.

Gotcha. I think.

That's different. That's not saying that once Luke finishes training, he's permitted to be both a Jedi and a Rebel.

 

This is a good point. GL never uses the term, in film, to describe anyone doing anything but air/space piloting. It is my understand that the pod racing section is where Anakin is suppose to be showing his piloting skills and prove that he was already a great pilot when he met Ben. Didn't GL say this some where? If he didn't, we could conceed this as a non-issue as it relates to the pods.


I'm a pilot, you know, and someday I'm going to fly away
from this place.

 

None of the audience is from the GFFA, though I question that more and more.

 

a better example:

ANAKIN: Watto doesn't know I've built it. (to Qui-Gon) You could make him think it's yours, and you could get him to let me pilot it for you.

 

FYI

Did you know what those guys behind the wheels of the F1s are called? Guess what... pilots! It seems that the term is associated with ground based vehicles after all...

 

Okay, I went back and actually read some of the longer posts instead of just skimming over their bulk. On the topic of Pod Racer Pilots:

1) Pod Racers are considered "pilots". The closest Earth-Based vehicle we can associate a Pod Racer to is a hovercraft, and on Earth we call them Hovercraft Pilots. The fact that Pods go over 600 KPH only increases the odds that they will be referred to as "pilots", because all experimental land craft operators who attempt to break land/speed records (here on Earth) are considered pilots. So whether or not you are from Earth or the GFFA, it is not improper to refer to Pod Racers as "pilots". To call them a "driver" would actually be more improper than calling them a "pilot".

2) Here is what Obi-Wan says about Anakin's piloting skills in ANH:

BEN: Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.

LUKE: I wish I'd known him.

BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend.

As we can see, Obi-Wan's description of Anakin's piloting skills in ANH simply refer to the opinion that he was the best star-pilot in the galaxy. In this instance, there is no specification as to "when" he was the best star-pilot in the galaxy. Going on that awesome intro to ROTS, his Star-Piloting skills are demonstrated to be top-notch. In fact, we as the audience see no other pilot pull off stuff crazier than Anakin. Spinning to blow up the missiles, delicately scraping the buzz droids off Obi-Wan's ship with the body of his ship, flipping over Obi-Wan to be in position to destroy the shields and finally crash-landing half a capitol ship, Lucas has gone all out to show that what Obi-Wan says in ANH about Anakin's piloting skills were indeed the case.

And here is what he says about his piloting skills in ROTJ:

BEN: When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

Now this bit from Obi-Wan in ROTJ actually does indicate a particular timeframe, "when he first knew him". While this doesn't necessarily mean the instant he saw him, I agree that we are talking about the timeframe surrounding TPM. However, this time Obi-Wan doesn't refer to him as the best "Star-Pilot" in the galaxy, merely a "great pilot". Even if you personally refuse to recognize a "Pod Racer" as a "Pilot", Obi-Wan could still be referring to the fact that Anakin single handedly saved the day at the battle of Naboo, when everyone else was failing to do so. For him to fly into the droid control ship, maneuver through the tight openings in the hangar doors, and then fly back out after taking out the main reactor, well you could see why people would consider him a "great pilot".

So no matter how you slice this, it isn't a plot hole, or bad word usage.

 

Okay on the issue of whether or not Anakin was indeed a pilot when Obi-Wan first met Anakin aboard the Naboo Royal Starship (J-type 327 Nubian) after leaving Tatooine. We the gushers, apologists, and p!mps (Go-Mer-Tonic excluded because he doesn't like the word gusher) have proven that not only are land based vehicles operators called pilots in Star Wars. This being proven by showing that air-tank operators (hovercraft operators) are called pilots by George Lucas as far back as the 1974 rough draft of The Star Wars, and that AT-AT operators are called pilots in The Empire Strikes Back novel (copyright 1980) and the Star Wars Visual Dictionary (copyright 1998), and the starwars.com AT-AT databank:

The All Terrain Armored Transport, or AT-AT walker, is a four-legged transport and combat vehicle used by the Imperial ground forces. Standing a towering 15 meters tall, these walkers are intimidating, and are used as much for psychological effect as they are for tactical effect.

An AT-AT has blast-impervious armor plating, and resembles a gigantic beast as it moves across the battlefield. An AT-AT's head carries the main armaments, a pair of light blasters located on the walker's "temples," and heavier, twin laser cannons mounted on the walker's "chin."

The command crew pilots the AT-AT from the walker's head, which is connected to the main body by a flexible neck. The crew consists of a commander, a gunner, and a pilot. Additional crews and troops can be carried in the walker's main storage bay.


Just because AT-AT and AT-ST operators are not referred to as pilots in the saga does not make it any less of a fact that they hold the title of pilot. It is common knowledge to any Star Wars fan that just because a person's, place's, or thing's title is not spoken in the saga does not mean that that person, place, or thing does not have a title. Case in point, the word ewok is never spoken in Return Of The Jedi yet we know that to be the title of their species.

Now the question is does the word pilot exist in the real world as the operator of a land based vehicle?
The answer is yes.
Urkanoid has presented facts that show Formula 1 race car operators are indeed called pilots. Urkanoid has even presented a link to said evidence.

For all of those who have refused to acknowledge Anakin as a pilot in the first half of The Phantom Menace and claim that George Lucas failed to present Anakin as the "great pilot" we are told Anakin to be in Return Of The Jedi. You have officially been called out and this plot hole has been proven to be bogus.

Now by the international laws of Star Wars boguscity you must acknowledge your error and never speak of this alleged plot hole again unless to say it is not a plot hole but merely a perceived plot hole by those who were not familar with a Star Wars lexicon that has existed for over 30 years where in the word pilot refers to hovercraft operators and land based vehicle operators, and that in fact, Formula 1 race car operators are even called pilots here in the real world.

 

Funny I have always heard of them referred to as Drivers. Just like NASCAR and CART. And if you are using the argument that they have wings, so do the cars in CART. I notice even in the search you provided some of the F1s have nothing to do with F1 racing. and the 3rd entry refers to them both as pilots and drivers....

 

I know I'm gonna kick myself for asking but what does GFFA stand for ? <---serious inquiry

GIRLS FRIENDS FOR ANANKIN?
GOES FOR FREEKING ANYTHING
GULLIBLE FRIENDS FOR ANSWERS?

 

You've been called out. It's over. This is what I don't get about you bashers. You've been called out.

I've heard Formula 1 race car drivers referred to as pilots before and yes at the time I heard it I thought it sounded funny, but Formula 1 race car drivers are called pilots.

When I got called out by Loco for Lucas a couple weeks back I acknowledged my ignorance and commended Loco for Lucas. But you guys just don't get it.

You just can't let it go. You lost. Anakin is a pilot in The Phantom Menace. He's not only a pilot, he's a "great pilot" like Obi-Wan said in Return Of The Jedi.

 

You are also not mentioning that he did it without autopilot which it is implied that everyone else is using...

 

Galaxy Far Far Away.

Permission to kick yourself granted.

 

Pilots have been driving boats long before they were flying. A pilot is
actually a helmsman, they are also guides (which is what a pilot actually is), the aviation industry bastardised (or modified) the word "pilot" to include people that operate aeroplanes. "Pilot" is a naval term. Racing car drivers are called pilots for the same reason that people who fly planes are called pilots, both groups have taken a naval term and modified it to mean what they want it to. A pilot IS NOT a person that flies a plane. A pilot is a boat driver, or a person that has changed the meaning of this word to suite their job, e.g.. a person that flies a plane or drives a car.

 

There's this one good thing about this dispute... The fact that we're so fervent about this whole bogus pilot-plot hole thing indicates that actually there aren't any real plot holes to speak of, all there is in my opinion is endless appetite for nitpicking... Lets discuss the Saga, not desecrate it.

 

It is implied that the N1 star fighters had the coordinates of the droid control ship plugged in, so they could autopilot into battle. But once they were there they most certainly wouldn't leave them on. They would take over to engage the enemy.

 

Here goes attempt #4 to reply to this message...

Lets not start the basher/ gusher name calling again.....

First: I am not a basher. I am a realist. 1+1=2. when I see 1+1=3, I recognize it and move on. I dont look for interviews or previous drafts of the script, or explanations involving kentucky windage and Leap days. I can still enjoy the movie.

Second: I was stating a fact when I said "Funny I have always heard of them referred to as Drivers" I meant it . I get all I hear about F1 from mainstream media in USA so I may be wrong. Does is really matter that much to you? I did mention that the link he provided calls them BOTH pilots AND drivers. And to try and be fair about it, I didn't point out the 1 of the links was talking about the first supersonic test aircraft, because it would have been misleading .

Third: I am not invested in either side of this argument. I have argued on BOTH sides when applicable me and my thought process.

Fourth: Just because you believe someone's been called out and that its over doesn't make it so. Even if I believe that F1 drivers are pilots, F1 and pod racing are not the same thing therefore apples/oranges. Now I know this is gonna be hard for you to understand, but I'm typing slow (maybe that's why this message has timed out 3 times ) as I can. The argument is over when no one is willing to argue a point anymore.

Fifth: I commend you for standing up when you realized your argument had been beaten. But you need to realize some of this is more about sparring than actually being right or wrong.

Sixth: why doesn't anyone laugh at my jokes?

 

Could that be because aircraft and race cars are relatively new in historical perspective. Does this mean a entirely new term must be made to designate the (for lack of a more succint{sp?} word) pilot or driver.

If so do we burn the Dictionaries that disagree with you?
Where is the DarthIronclad Dictionary published? Borders doesn't have it. Is it on Ebay?

 

OUCH....

 

I dont have the DVD but I could have sworn that Anakin was dogfighting with the enemy (not just flying straight toward coordinates) and he said something like " Gotta turn this auto pilot off , it's gonna get me killed". That implied to me that the ship had a combat "AI" for itself that the pilots could use.... But I never spent much time with TPM... only saw it 2 times in the theater...

 

>>>> Now this bit from Obi-Wan in ROTJ actually does indicate a particular timeframe, "when he first knew him". While this doesn't necessarily mean the instant he saw him, I agree that we are talking about the timeframe surrounding TPM. However, this time Obi-Wan doesn't refer to him as the best "Star-Pilot" in the galaxy, merely a "great pilot". Even if you personally refuse to recognize a "Pod Racer" as a "Pilot", Obi-Wan could still be referring to the fact that Anakin single handedly saved the day at the battle of Naboo, when everyone else was failing to do so. For him to fly into the droid control ship, maneuver through the tight openings in the hangar doors, and then fly back out after taking out the main reactor, well you could see why people would consider him a "great pilot".

So no matter how you slice this, it isn't a plot hole, or bad word usage.

Here, here, GoMer!


-JR

 

I can't believe this argument has gone on for 6 pages. Anakin being a pilot in TPM is simply NOT a plothole.

If you insist that it's a plothole, then you have to admit that ANH has exactly the same plothole. The situation is the same: Anakin and Luke are refered to as pilots several times, by themselves and/or by others, long before we actually see them piloting.