There are no plot holes in the Saga

Let's see now... Anakin tried spinning and got lucky with it. Did Obi-Wan know that a little luck saved Anakin's life? No. Obi-Wan wasn't spectating the battle, he was busy dueling Darth Maul.

The two above posts have very good points. (Lol by the way.)

 

First, his point was what the Jedi had been doing, not how long the Old Republic has been around. If you think he's saying that the Jedi and Old Republic have ALWAYS been inexoribly linked, I disagree.

Second, it's not an important plot point, so if it's really a 'plot-hole', I'm o.k. with it.

Again, it's not an important plot point.

No reason to think that they didn't find out about Obi-Wan after the fact.

And Owen acting neurotic about the whole thing and having 'strange priorities', doesn't constitute a 'plot hole' or 'contradiction'.

And............the problem with that was................??????

A 'complete fabrication' that helped motivate Luke to become a Jedi.

Yep. Just like how long the Republic existed isn't relevant.

No, we don't have a disparity.
The acting assumption seems to be that we were being given a 'history lesson' by both Obi-Wan and Palpatine.

Right. But with the old dialogue of ESB, there's nothing to contradict the notion that the Emperor and Vader knew about Luke, but decided not to do anything about him until he became a member of the Rebel Alliance. Nothing so 'odd' about that, especially i

 

Rather than scripting a film to have Obi-Wan be right, we are resorting to a technicality and simply attributing ignorance to his claim about Anakin being a good pilot.


"He wasn't really a good pilot. But Obi-Wan doesn't know any better - he really thinks that Anakin was 'good' when he was only lucky. So technically, it's not a plot hole. Obi-Wan is just stupid, and his recollection to Luke in that hut is just the babbling of an old man whom is losing his memory."

That's the argument? Rather than it be a plot hole, Obi-Wan is now simply ignorant of the truth?

I prefer "plot hole."

 

Just because you would prefer there was a plot hole here, doesn't mean there is one.

Obi-Wan assuming Anakin was a great pilot on the basis he single handednly saved the day in TPM is understandable, and not a plot hole.

 

It's YOUR argument, Hudnall, it's YOUR opinion that Anakin is not a great pilot, and it's not even relevant.

The question is not our subjective opinion of Anakin's piloting skills, the real question is if it makes sense for Obi-Wan to call him "already a great pilot".

 

It what was shown onscreen - and you guys are suggesting that I should simply chalk up his statement about "good pilot" to ignorance of Anakin's skills and an assumption based on not seeing him in action and luck.

 

The boy had skills, there is no doubt about that. He won a podrace against Sebulba, who was supposedly "the best". And the boy was only eight. eight. eight. How many 8 year olds do you know that can beat Jeff Gordon in a NASCAR race?

 

Well yes...

If you ignore the fact that Obi-Wan's ghost is not under oath in court, but he's trying to comfort Luke, who is pissed off at him for lying about his father. (a good time for some glorification, yet not the best time for another outright lie)

And you insist that Anakin is not a good pilot, despite demonstrating his skills TWICE, which are impressive given the circumstances.

...then that's the third option for you Hudnall.

 

Okay guys, its an inconsistency and we all know it but its not that big a deal.

When Obi Wan said he was a great pilot we all assumed, as did Lucas, that he was talking about flying spaceships. Lucas changed his mind, wrote Anakin as a 9 year old, and made the term "pilot" a bit of a technicality. We all know that driving podracer hovercraft is not exactly what Obi Wan/Lucas had in mind, but technically, it fits, even if at a stretch; we just have to go with it.

We can debate the semantics of what constitutes a "pilot" but the simple fact is that Lucas and Obi Wan were originally referring to spaceships but this was changed to hovercraft, which isnt the same thing but is good enough considering its what we have to live with.

 

Sorry, it's not even an "inconsistency". It's becoming a big deal, though.

The last time I saw TPM, Anakin piloted a spaceship. The mere fact justifies Obi-Wan's line to me, although Obi-Wan could just as well be refering to the podrace, where Anakin utilized the same skills, regardless of how it's called.

 

To sum up things, I would say I agree with zombie's last post and respectuflly disagrew with Plo's last post.


Firstly, I don't feel that there are legitimate plot holes in the OT. Which is why I say it 'tongue-in-cheek' when I refer to plot holes in any SW movie.

Ben seeming to forget about Leia in ESB and Vader not letting the Emporer take a saber in his face seem plot hole-ish. I wouldn't say they are out and out plot holes, but they are things that make me go


As far as the PT creating holes, I disagree because in order for there to be holes, there has to have been 'solid facts' that were changed. More precisely, 'solid facts' that weren't solely for Luke's benefit or merely for dramatic effect

Well, if you throw in dramatic effect than it is impossible for any work of fiction to have a plot hole, but I don't agree with that definition because he can add things that create dramatic effect which don't create any inconsistancies.


In other words, the problems originating from the PT, and not the OT.

Yes, that's more or less what I am saying. As with anything, when you write the "pre"-story after "the" story has been written, you're bound to the story which was already established.


Because if he tells Luke about this yet other Jedi, who played a big role in Anakin becoming a Jedi, it's kind of hard for Ben then to try to take all the 'blame' onto himself.

Again, disagree. Ben made his own choices. GQJ did not train Anakin.


That's different. That's not saying that once Luke finishes training, he's permitted to be both a Jedi and a Rebel.

This would fit well with the PT, though. Jedis fought with Republic soldiers, so I would think it would be expected for new Jedi to fight with Rebel soldiers.


Now watching all six in order, I still don't see the need for Luke in the latter episodes to be told the exact truth on everything that went down 20 years or more ago.

Oh, I'm not saying he has to be told about QGJ, I'm saying it creates confusion for the audience to be shown/told one thing and then switch over half way through the series tell the audience something else. Mentioning QGJ in the OT is one way to correct this. There are other (and better) ways, though.


As we can see, Obi-Wan's description of Anakin's piloting skills in ANH simply refer to the opinion that he was the best star-pilot in the galaxy. In this instance, there is no specification as to "when" he was the best star-pilot in the galaxy.

Well, yes, thanks to ROTS I don't see this as a plot-hole. I'm not sold on the idea that Anakin really was the best, but at least he gives Obi-wan reason to say that.


Whether he is a great pilot is only a matter of opinion. Our word against Obi-Wan's.

That Obi-wan's a shifty sort, I don't think we can trust him


Well, why does it need to be explained? For one, I got it.

Not to be difficult, but I don't see what there is to get. One person says the Republic's been round for 1000 generations, one for 1000 years (a much shorter period of time). If someone talks about how the USA has been around for 200 years and then later says its been around for 1,000 years, I'm going to be thoroughly confused.


Ben does not say that the Republic, as a political entity has been around for over 1000 generations. Or at least, that wasn't his point. The point was how long the Jedi have been doing their duty.

But then wouldn't he say "For a thousand generations the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice". But instead he says "For a thousand generations the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." He puts it into a context, the context being the Old Republic.

Who else in ANH used the term Old Republic?

Tarkin: "The last reminents of the Old Republic have been swept away."

What was Tarkin talking about? The political entity, same as Palpatine in AOTC when he said "this republic which has stood for a thousand years." And Tarkin

 

The Republic has been in existence for over 25,000 years. Two thousand years ago, the Sith fractured the Republic by taking over a number of systems and creating their Empire. The Jedi and the Republic fought the Sith in many battles, ending with the seven battles of Ruusan. In the end, the Sith were destroyed save for Darth Bane and the Republic was reunited with the remmants of the Sith Empire. The Galactic Republic was forged and the military was eventually disolved into what it is at the start of TPM. Lucas confirmed this long ago.

Again, it's not an important plot point. [/quote]

It's all correct.

The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith Lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of that era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

As Ki-Adi-Mundi states in Episode I, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium; however, not all were wiped out. A surviving Sith Lord sought to rebuild the order, to retake the galaxy, and to take revenge. This Sith Lord realized the dangers of having too many in the order, so he kept his existence a secret. It would be a long time coming, but he carefully plotted revenge. There would be only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice, working in secret, planting the seeds for their eventual rise.

By Episode III, the Sith are ready to reveal themselves. There's no more need for subterfuge, no more need for skulking in the shadows. Darth Sidious, the Sith mastermind, will make good on a 1000-year plot to finally avenge the fallen order, destroy the Jedi Knights, and retake command of the galaxy.

--Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 60

"The Sith are the archenemies of the Jedi," George Lucas explained, "and for a long time, they ruled the universe until the Jedi came along and got rid of them. The Sith characters in the previous Star Wars films were Darth Vader and the other apprentices-Darth Maul from Episode I and Count Dooku, or Darth Tyrannus, from Episode II and the soon-to-be released Episode III. The evil master Sith in all of the films is Darth Sidious, who becomes Emperor of the universe."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Insider, issue 78; page 80


There is no error here.

 

Actually, Obi-Wan calls Luke "quite a good" pilot...

Obi-Wan's valuations are debatable, but at least Anakin ACTUALLY PILOTED A SPACESHIP. So I guess the plothole is in ANH. If there is a plothole, that is.

 

Yeah, if they say he was a good pilot but don't show it, that's not a plot hole because there is no contradiction.

That said, they show Anakin piloting Pods and Starships in TPM, so in this case, they say he's a great pilot and show it to boot.

So this is not a plot hole 2 times.

 

Darn it, Sinister, didn't you know I came to Saga so I could post in a thread where we didn't argue?

 

I got this. It's not much but you said anything.

If the Star Wars films could serve as a throwback to the movie serials of yesteryear, why shouldn't they revive the basic concept of the radio drama as well?
These dramas began when George Lucas donated the rights to them to National Public Radio station KUSC-FM, a station connected with his alma mater, the University of Southern California. With rights to the scripts, the trilogy's myriad sound effects, and John Williams's score, NPR turned to science fiction author Brian Daley--writer of, among other things, a trilogy of novels focusing on Han Solo--to handle the adaptation itself.

The situation, he (Lucas) felt, was great not only for kids who couldn't afford the price of a movie ticket, but for those people who were shut-ins as well.---The Unauthorized Star Wars Compendium

And by no means is this book the work of a gusher because the final pages of the book are dedicated to ripping apart Return Of The Jedi and the Special Editions.

 

On the issue of Anakin being a great pilot when Obi-Wan first met Anakin. Of course, Zombie is probably right when saying that when Lucas made ROTJ, Anakin probably was a great starpilot or something a little more prestigous than a race car driver, however, I always thought it took a lot of skill to race a hovercraft at 950 kilometers per hour. Most of us hard core fans know and accept that Lucas made this stuff up as he went along. When I first watched The Phantom Menace, I just figured everyone was like me and accepted that Obi-Wan's dialogue in Return Of The Jedi was now referring to Anakin being a great Podracer pilot. I never saw Obi-Wan's dialogue as ever referring to Anakin being whisked away via the N-1 starship's automatic pilot to the droid control ship as great piloting. In fact, later I would come to interpret Anakin's spinning out of control and landing in the droid control ship's hanger bay as the will of the Force or divine intervention as I like to call it.

 

And I would say that both are right.

Well, then, sometimes things that make you go are just that, and nothing more.

You caught the 'dramatic effect' part, but missed the part about things 'said for Luke's benefit.'

Thoughts?

He was bound, and he did stick with it. It's not like he had Anakin/Vader kill Obi-Wan at the end of ROTS, keep all his limbs, and then kill Sidious or something to that effect.

But what you're saying goes further than what would constitute 'straying from the story'.

You seem to be talking about the "pre-story" elements that were mentioned in "the story", and then equating the various interpretations that many had with the 'actual words' themselves that alluded to the backstory in the OT.

Thus, GL's 'crime' of not adhering to any particular interpretation of those lines (and such intepretations in whatever manner being construed to be his 'original intention').

Right.

But you have a problem not so much with Ben taking 'the blame', but with his "I took it upon myself" line, correct?

You've got a point.

Except the reality is that we're actually dealing with things said or told, and not 'shown'. In other words, character POVs. We were not 'shown' anything.

 

First, his point was what the Jedi had been doing, not how long the Old Republic has been around. If you think he's saying that the Jedi and Old Republic have ALWAYS been inexoribly linked, I disagree.

I'm just taking Ben's word as his word. He said they Jedi were guardians in the Old Republic for a thousand generations. For all we know, they were guardians of something else before that, or they didn't exist. Who knows, but he frames the statement in a specific context. In the end, all we have to work with is what is in the movie.


Second, it's not an important plot point, so if it's really a 'plot-hole'

I see, but I don't classify a plot-hole by its importance.


The Republic has been in existence for over 25,000 years. Two thousand years ago, the Sith fractured the Republic by taking over a number of systems and creating their Empire.

Interesting information, but unfortunately never stated in the movie. Might have been interesting to have in the movie.


Obi-wan didn't forget about Leia. He didn't consider her because she was a captive of Vader and had no way of knowing her true heritage. Much less about how to hear the dead, so she could come to Dagobah.

Well, that's a good and interesting point about him writing off Leia because Vader had her prisoner. But then why didn't Yoda write her off, too?

As to her ability to hear the dead, that's really unknown. Luke had almost no training when Ben first started talking to him from beyond.


And Vader is conflicted when it comes to Palpatine. He's got between a rock and a hard place. It's not so easy to turn on Palpatine as he thought it was. There's a reason Palpatine killed Plaugeis in his sleep.

Perhaps, but Vader wanted Luke for the purpose of killing the Emporer. He missed a good opportunity. And why "must" he obey his master? How can you plan an overthrough if you're bound to obedience?

All I can figure is Vader was talking smack to get Luke to join him, or he didn't believe he could turn Luke to the dark side without the Emporer's help.


Correct. In fact, it would've happened had Obi-wan lived and trained Luke fully. They would be the new Master/Padawan team. Neither Jedi Master condem him for fighting with the Alliance.

Right, we agree here. My disagreement which brought up this point was with Toschi, although I forget about what now. What were we arguing about, Toschi?


Well, when going in order, it does gel. The dialogue is such that it works without mentioning Qui-gon. Obi-wan could've easily broken his promise to him when the Council arrived. But he believed in Qui-gon and believed in Anakin, so he went ahead and told Yoda that he'd do it no matter what they said. If he tells Luke that he only trained Anakin because of a promise, he makes it look like he didn't care about Anakin as much.

Sinister, I'm not saying Ben was wrong to omit QGJ. This is the latest reply in a series of replies which started started when we were debating whether or not Obi-wan saying he was trained by Yoda in ESB presented a plot hole in the Saga.


So I'd say that there is no plot hole if Luke is considered a pilot by using a T-16 and a landspeeder

I've never heard anything about Luke's skill be proven because he drove landspeeders. The whole base for his pioting, as I understand it, seems to be his experience with T-16s.


Obi-Wan's valuations are debatable, but at least Anakin ACTUALLY PILOTED A SPACESHIP. So I guess the plothole is in ANH. If there is a plothole, that is.

Not sure I follow. Both TPM and ANH show the respective Skywalkers flying spaceships.

Anyone found out anything on the F1 formula piloting? I only saw the term used in the header of that article from the earlier link, but driver was used the body of the text. Surely we've got some race car fans out there that can help us.

 

I always thought it took a lot of skill to race a hovercraft at 950 kilometers per hour.

I agree it took great skill.

Toschi, I'll get back to your latest reply tomorrow hopefully.

 

Thank you. I never meant to hurt your feelings and I was not calling you a pimp. I will admit I did call you an apologist and I did (and do) feel like that was an accurate description of what you are doing. It was not meant to offend and I apologize if it did.

I would also like to thank Hudnall for defending me in my absence.

 

But Obi-Wan calls Luke a pilot before he even flies the spaceship.

 

O.K.

But then why does what Palpatine says in AOTC automatically mean that there was no Republic prior to 1000 years prior?

Neither do I.

Nor do I call something a plot hole whenever a given subtext isn't explained on-screen.

Maybe, but not necessary.

Well, why did Yoda 'write off' Luke, but Ben didn't? - "That boy was our last hope."

Why did Yoda 'write off' Anakin in ROTS as soon as he watched the holo-recording, but Obi-Wan wouldn't?



See ya later,
TOSCHISTATION

 

Yes and Obi-Wan says, â??When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot.â?? That means we can throw out everything that happened after the Queenâ??s ship left Tatooine.

The entire pilot debate is essentially a debate about the vehicles in question. Through the dialog in the films we know that Luke flew a T-16 PRIOR to meeting up with Ben in ANH. Through the Pod Race in TPM we know that Anakin drove a pod-racer PRIOR to meeting Ben.

To simplify things and allow posters an easy way to find out where they sit on this issue just answer the following question:

Do you consider the operator of a Pod Racer a Pilot?

If you answer yes then there is no plot hole. If you answer no then there is a plot hole.

 

Actually, it's in ROTS.

Mace: "The oppression of the Sith will never return."

Palpatine: "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy."

A generation is at least 25 years. A thousand times twenty five is 25,000. Palpatine does not say generations. He says years. Ergo, the Republic was around and then it was divided up, because of the Sith. The Sith were defeated and the Republic was reunited, which then lead to a thousand years of releative peace.

Always in motion is the future. Nothing is certain.

But he had just enough to hear him. The more Luke trained, both on his own and with Yoda, the more he got to see Obi-wan.

I believe he was serious, he just didn't realize that it would be so difficult to go against him. As I mentioned, Sidious killed Plagueis in his sleep. It must be truly difficult to pull off, for any Sith to kill their Master. The ROTJ novelization says that he felt Luke wasn't sufficently turned, but then that doesn't make sense. Or maybe I'm dense and it does.

Ah, that. There is no error. Yoda trains all the Younglings in the ways of the Force. Other Jedi teach other skills such as combat, medicial training, navigation and basic school teachings. Once the Youngling is paired up with a Knight/Master, they're then sent out on missions in which the Knight/Master will teach his/her Padawan how to be a Jedi in the feild. This is why Lucas highlights the scene with Yoda training the Younglings in AOTC. And has Obi-wan refer to what Yoda had taught him, in TPM. So in terms of learning the ways of the Force, Yoda taught Obi-wan everything that he knew. In terms of how to apply those basic tennets as a Jedi, Qui-gon Jinn taught Obi-wan all that he knew. He did also stress the need to learn more about the Living Force, but this is because Obi-wan has yet to totally focus on it.

Which is basically an airspeeder. That's what a Skyhopper is. A Podracer isn't much different, expect that it goes ten times faster and is generally closer to the ground. And Anakin's the only human capable of not only racing one of those things, but the only one to ever win.