There Is Still Good in Him: Do The Jedi Believe Anakin Can Come Back From The Dark Side?

>>>>Hmmm.... I am confused. RotS has been out and we have all seen it multiple times. We know what happens at the end: there is no Vader/Ben confrontation where Vader does one good deed. In fact, if the yellow eyes are a visual barometer of Anakin "dying" and Vader "starting to come alive", then by the end of RotS, "Anakin" is dead and "Vader" lives. No "last" good deed.

FJ, this thread in it's other 2 guises of

There Is Still Good In Him: Anakin Let's Obi-Wan and Luke Go?
There Is Still Good In Him: Do Yoda and Ben Believe Anakin can be Redeemed?

Changed part way through the second version, once it became clear from the spoilers that there was going to be no last good deed, and became focused purely on what had always been the heart of the debate - whether or not Yoda and Obi-Wan believed that Anakin could be turned back from the dark side and that this is what they were working towards through their training of Luke in the OT.

Just so people are clear, this is the post I was trying to get (and am still trying to get) Sin to put up as the first post, so that people were aware of the change in the discussion:

---

Okay, new version deserves a new first post. :)

Do Yoda and Obi-Wan believe that Anakin can be redeemed after the events of [i]Revenge of the Sith[/i]?

This is what Lucas had to say about the possibility:

[hr]The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia?s father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. [b]All those years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father.[/b] That?s what Ben has been doing, but you don?t know this in the first film.

[i]-- George Lucas, Laurent Bouzereau, The Annotated Screenplays[/i][hr]

It is clear to me that Obi-Wan cannot bring himself to destroy Anakin in his duel at the end of Episode III. He pleads with Anakin not to try his leap to the bank of the lava river on Mustafar, even though Yoda has specifically given him the mission of destroying the Sith. And when Anakin jumps, Kenobi chooses not to use a strike that will kill. He leaves Anakin's fate to the Will of the Force. And even though the likelihood should be that Anakin will perish; he does not.

Kenobi has 19 years to ponder the fact that something stopped him from outright killing the Chosen One, and something kept Anakin alive.

He also has that time to think about Padme's last words to him on Polis Massa:

[hr]"Obi-Wan...there...is good in him. I know....I [b]know[/b] there is....still...."

[i]-- Padme Skywalker[/i][hr]
Words that she speaks as she touches the eternal, and becomes one with the mystical energy field that created Anakin to bring balance to the Force. In that moment, she KNOWS the truth. And she tells Obi-Wan whilst he holds the boy in his arms that he will watch over for those 19 years.

Obi-Wan's first reaction after Padme's death is to look down at Luke.

The boy whom the two remaining Jedi train, with a far greater emphasis on understanding the perils of the dark side and with the focus on confronting his father.

I believe this focus is because they hope to send a son to try and reach his father, where the Chosen One's wife and 'brother' failed. By reaching into his heart and making Anakin understand that there is still good in him.[hr][/blockquote]

[i][b]>>>>However, I fully believe that the Jedi - Obi-Wan and Yoda - finally understand the exact nature of the prophecy after RotS, and realize that Vader IS the Chosen One. Hence they take no direct action in the OT - Obi-Wan does not even try to kill Vader in ANH. They ask Luke to "confront" Vader, so that somehow, mysteriously, Vader will fulfil the prohecy and destroy the Sith. Of course, they know that by "destroying" the Sith, Vader will also have to die - but they never spell this out to Luke. Luke und

 

First of all the idea that Obi Wan and Yoda believe in Anakin sometime between Eps III and IV seem ludicrous. Why would they ever believe Anakin could turn back to good? After all the destruction and evil he has wrought it would seem pretty accurate when Obi Wan calls him "twisted, evil." There is also NOTHING in the OT which indicates that they believe he can be turned. For example, uh...maybe telling Luke it's possible to come back from the Dark Side???

It was Luke's own idea to turn Vader. And he achieved greatness through doing so.

But even if it were true that Yoda and Ben somehow learned "the truth" of prophecy and believed Anakin was indeed the Chosen One then there is no need to send Luke to "confront" him. If they believe in the prophecy then they KNOW Anakin will turn back to good and save the day in the end. that is the whole point of a prophecy. it is 100% CERTAIN to happen. So there is no need to do anything. Luke, Leia, the whole struggle of the rebellion is irrelevant. No matter what, Anakin would have balanced the Force. Of course this renders pretty much the entire OT unecessary. It's just one of many ways Anakin's inevitable act would have happened.

 

GDS, I don't offer this as proof of the pro theory, but to tell Luke during his training that it is possible to turn back from the Dark Side defeats the purpose of training him to resist the dark side. The Dark Side is a threat that Luke cannot take lightly. Even if they believe that Anakin can be saved, the consequences of the Dark Side are irreversible. In Anakin's case, years of evil are still part of his life. The Dark side dominated his destiny. Many of the various versions of the Pro argument have embraced the fact that the Dark Side dominated Anakin's destiny. When he chose the Dark Side it dictated the route he would take to fulfilling his destiny, but it did not become his destiny. From the pro perspective, telling Luke that he must save his father is comprable to telling Anakin he is the Chosen One.

In RoTS, when Anakin informs Mace that Palps is the Sith Lord orchestrating everything, Mace tells him to stay put. Anakin's gut reaction is to say that he must go. IMO, this gut reaction is different from Anakin's ruminations about what will happen to Palpatine (in to Padme as a result). His gut reaction ("I must go, Master.") is intuitive. He doesn't know exactly why he must go, he just knows that he must go.

It isn't until he starts dwelling on Padme's potential demise (with a little help from Palps reaching out through the Dark Side), that Anakin makes the conscious decision to go to Palps' office.


It's this intuitive spirit that Obi-Wan and Yoda try to foster in Luke. They teach him to quiet his mind and listen to the call of the Force. Telling him outright to go save his father's soul (or kill him for that matter), is counterintuitive. He must discover his purpose on his own. That was one of the many failures of with Anakin.

 

"But even if it were true that Yoda and Ben somehow learned "the truth" of prophecy and believed Anakin was indeed the Chosen One then there is no need to send Luke to "confront" him. If they believe in the prophecy then they KNOW Anakin will turn back to good and save the day in the end. that is the whole point of a prophecy. it is 100% CERTAIN to happen. So there is no need to do anything. Luke, Leia, the whole struggle of the rebellion is irrelevant. No matter what, Anakin would have balanced the Force. Of course this renders pretty much the entire OT unecessary. It's just one of many ways Anakin's inevitable act would have happened."

there was every need to send luke to confront him. you know that anakin will fulfill the prophecy, but he's darth vader and evil. as vader during the twenty odd years after ROTS, there was no catalyst to bring this about, and all luke ever really was in the end, was a vehicle to bring anakin back to that same choice that he blew the first time 'round. obi-wan and yoda knew that no matter what, luke couldn't defeat the emperor or vader, as it was not his place. i think it was after luke removed vader's hand that he realized this as well. you can't defeat evil with evil, you can only defeat it with compassion and love. i think that's what obi-wan and yoda knew the whole time, but they had to prompt, and tell luke things from "certain points of view", to get him to the point where he would understand it himself, and give anakin a chance to fulfill his destiny.

peace,
Krumbum

 

you can't defeat evil with evil, you can only defeat it with compassion and love. i think that's what obi-wan and yoda knew the whole time, but they had to prompt, and tell luke things from "certain points of view", to get him to the point where he would understand it himself, and give anakin a chance to fulfill his destiny.

Krumbum, excellent point.

As for the prophecy: If it is a matter of trusting in the Prophecy (but I don't believe it comes down to faith in the prophecy), it is not a stretch to conclude that the two remaining jedi learn a few things after Anakin's fall. In terms of Anakin's purpose as the Chosen One, the Jedi Council pushed Anakin to the sidelines. IMO, they believed (most evident with Mace) that if Anakin was the Chosen One then he would fulfill the Prophecy and there was nothing that they had to do to allow that (or prevent it). In this respect, the Jedi Council failed. They turned away form their destiny. They were meant to support the Chosen One, aid him in fulfilling his destiny to bring balance (most evident when Mace tells Anakin to stay put while they face Palps. In a very real sense, Mace unwittingly tries to hijack Anakin's destiny and the fallout is horrendous).

 

Excellent posts, JediSF and darth_krumbum

 

However, I fully believe that the Jedi - Obi-Wan and Yoda - finally understand the exact nature of the prophecy after RotS, and realize that Vader IS the Chosen One.

"You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness! You were my brother Anakin, I loved you!"
-Obi Wan Kenobi

Obi-Wan is speaking in the past tense here. Anakin was supposed to be the Chosen One, but he chose not to fulfill his destiny.

Hence they take no direct action in the OT - Obi-Wan does not even try to kill Vader in ANH.

No he doesn't try to kill Vader, but he and Yoda train Luke to.


They ask Luke to "confront" Vader, so that somehow, mysteriously, Vader will fulfil the prohecy and destroy the Sith. Of course, they know that by "destroying" the Sith, Vader will also have to die - but they never spell this out to Luke. Luke understands this at Anakin's funeral pyre where he too learns to "let go".

It is obvious that Yoda does not believe that Anakin can come back. It is obvious to me that Obi-Wan believes the same as Yoda, but he is a little harder to prove. Once again, I will state things I said earlier that prove my points.

Yoda Proof:

"Your apprentice is gone. Consumed by Darth Vader."

"Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

"Destroy the Sith we must."

"Told you did he? Unexpected this is."

"...consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."


Obi-Wan Proof:

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine before he turned to evil, helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father."

"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."

"Then you are LOST!"

"You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness! You were my brother Anakin, I loved you!"

"When this happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed."

"Only a master of evil Darth."

There is no hard evidence from the films that support the other view of this topic.

 

Clearly you did not at all take into consideration the totally plausible alternative interpretations of those quotes which I posted earlier. Do not presume to know exactly what the characters are thinking, when there are multiple examples of them saying one thing but meaning something a little different. Star Wars is all about a certain point of view. The Force does not see things as black or white, and neither do Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

Here is an example of my argument from the EU:

Behind him, broadcast on the holomonitos, the attack on Omwat played out. "I tricked you into coming here," Dooku said. "This is a trap."

Yoda said, "A trap? Oh, yes it is."

His old touch was warm and firm. If you fall, catch you I will.

No. Not if but when. Yoda had said, When you fall, catch you I will. Had he known even then, seventy years ago, that this day would come? Surely even Yoda could not guess that his star pupil would fall so very, very far.

"To the dark side I do not think I shall go," Yoda said conversationally. "Not today. Feel the pull, do I? Of course! But a secret let me tell you apprentice."

"I'm not your apprentice," Dooku said. Yoda ignored him.

"Yoda a darkness carries with him," the Master said, "....and Dooku bears a light. After all these years! Across all these oceans of space! All these bodies you have tried to heap between us: and yet call to me still, the little Dooku does! Flies toward the true Force, like iron pulled to a magnet." Yoda cackled. "Even the blind seed grows to the light: should mighty Dooku be unable to achieve when even the rose can do?"

The Count said, "I have gone too far down the dark path to ever return."

"Pfeh." Yoda snapped his fingers. "The empty universe, where is it now? Alone are you, Count, and no one your master. Each instant the universe annihilates itself and starts again." He poked Dooku in the chest with his stick, hard. "Choose, and start again!"

-- page 309

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[blockquote][b]
"....Your new Master calls. Dooku, ask yourself: which of us loves you better?"

"I serve only Darth Sidious," Dooku said.

"Not my question, apprentice."

The red light blinked. There was another explosion from downstairs. A siren went off, and several of hte holomonitors began to flash.

"Come," Yoda said urgently. He put his hand once more on Dooku's arm. "Catch you, I said I would. Believe you must: more forgiveness will you find from your old Master than from the new one."[/b][/blockquote]

-- page 313
[hr]
[blockquote][b]
Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminuative Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."[/b][/blockquote]

-- page 316 [i]Star Wars: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous[/i], Sean Stewart
[hr]
So now you see BOTH sides of it. If Yoda can still believe there is good in Dooku after all he's done, and all the years he's been a Sith, then why wouldn't he feel the same about Anakin? However, like I said before, IF there is no chance of saving him from himself then he has to be destroyed.

 

There are three possibilities RebelScum77:

1. Yoda believes that Dooku was not fully corrupted. This is possible as Dooku never fully exhibited all the hallmarks of the Sith. Where are the eyes, where is the hate and his reluctance to kill Jedi at times. He also exhibits regret at Jedi deaths in some of the novels.

2. Yoda knows Dooku far better than Anakin. Perhaps it is a personal thing between Yoda and Dooku. Indeed, it appears that Yoda's personal connection almost worked.

3. Anyone can be brought back. If this is the case, Yoda and Ben never thought to explore it.

I personally believe that your example is points one and two.

1. Dooku, though a Sith Lord, never fully gave himself to the Sith. He is too old and cynical to give himself to anything fully. He never stated that his evowed goal was the destruction of the Jedi. Rather the deaths of the Jedi seemed to be an unfortunate by-product in his efforts to detroy the Republic.

2. Yoda and Dooku had a deep master/apprentice relatationship. It seemed to rankle the both of them that they were now enemies. Indeed, Yoda exhibits more anger and regret over the loss of his former apprentice than he has ever shown elsewhere.

That being said, if it seems the Jedi believed it could happen in special instances. Actually, only one Jedi felt that way.

Conclusion:
So no, for the most part, they do not believe that it is possible to bring back a Sith.

 

1. Dooku, though a Sith Lord, never fully gave himself to the Sith. He is too old and cynical to give himself to anything fully. He never stated that his evowed goal was the destruction of the Jedi. Rather the deaths of the Jedi seemed to be an unfortunate by-product in his efforts to detroy the Republic.

Are you listening to yourself? Dooku not fully a Sith? He was responsible for a war that killed millions and millions of people and don't you think that if the Jedi really stood in his way he wouldn't have hesistated to take them all out? Yes, he certainly has more depth to him than Sidious or Maul, but so does Anakin. Dooku turned because he felt the Republic was corrupt and Anakin turned because he wanted to save someone he loved. Sidious and Maul did it for the powaaaar. So, if Yoda believed Dooku might be able to turn because his heart wasn't totally black, then why couldn't he believe the same thing about Vader? Clearly Luke saw it in him.

2. Yoda and Dooku had a deep master/apprentice relatationship. It seemed to rankle the both of them that they were now enemies. Indeed, Yoda exhibits more anger and regret over the loss of his former apprentice than he has ever shown elsewhere.

But Anakin and Obi-Wan have an even stronger relationship and who's to say what Yoda's relationship to Anakin really was. Yoda does exhibit sadness as he and Obi-Wan see the security holos and he reacts to Anakin's pain in AOTC. Neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan seem to really want to fight each other on Mustafar. And Yoda doesn't feel anger or regret, Obi-Wan does which is why he is determined to watch over Luke, to somehow right the tragedy that he has wrought.

That being said, if it seems the Jedi believed it could happen in special instances. Actually, only one Jedi felt that way.

Who says that Obi-Wan doesn't feel it? It is entirely possible if you look at what he means other that what he literally says.

Conclusion:
So no, for the most part, they do not believe that it is possible to bring back a Sith.

Clearly, in Dark Rendezvous, Yoda felt it was possible.

 

The answer is still no.

Simply put, Ben nor Yoda ever overtly exhibted any sign they thought he could come back. All the evidence to the contrary is pure speculation.

Only Luke thought Vader could be brought back, a position that Ben deridded as fanciful in ROTJ.

As for the Dooku argument.

1. Despite the billions killed, I still don't think he was as Sith as the others. A leader is not a Sith merely because people have died due to a policy decision. Indeed, that he caused the war is completely irrelevent. Anyone can start wars, and it is not unique to the Sith.

Every Sith other than Dooku had the Sith eyes. They are there for a reason. They denote a total fall to the darkside. Why doesn't Dooku ever exhibit this trait?

2. The personal connection. You assertion that Obi-Wan's connection is stronger than the Yoda/Dooku connection is a strawman argument. It bears no real relevance in my point that Yoda's relationship influenced his belief with Dooku. I was pointing out a possibility for that particular example.

I apologize if my diction infered that a personal relationship effects all the Jedi in their belief that someone can be turned, that was not my meaning.

 

1. Despite the billions killed, I still don't think he was as Sith as the others. A leader is not a Sith merely because people have died due to a policy decision. Indeed, that he caused the war is completely irrelevent. Anyone can start wars, and it is not unique to the Sith.

So how is Anakin "more" Sith than Dooku? People died under him due to "policy decisions" too. Anakin actually had a "better" reason to turn than any of the other Sith, if there is such a thing.

Every Sith other than Dooku had the Sith eyes. They are there for a reason. They denote a total fall to the darkside. Why doesn't Dooku ever exhibit this trait?

The yellow eyes come about due to extreme anger and hatred. Dooku is too cool and calculated for that. He just isn't as passionate as the other men. But that doens't make him any less evil than the rest of them.

 

JEDISF said:GDS, I don't offer this as proof of the pro theory, but to tell Luke during his training that it is possible to turn back from the Dark Side defeats the purpose of training him to resist the dark side. The Dark Side is a threat that Luke cannot take lightly. Even if they believe that Anakin can be saved, the consequences of the Dark Side are irreversible.

Well, this is negated in the OT. Luke tells Ben that he BELIEVES Vader can be turned back to good. And Luke repeats this often. So despite what obi Wan did or did not tell him, Luke is convinced that it is possible to come back. So obviously all these risks you are discussing are moot.

Krumdun-- Again, you have to look at the bigger picutre. The prophecy of the chosen one is a CERTAIN event. What we see happen in the OT is just ONE OF MANY, MANY WAYS that Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy. What if Anakin never turned to the Sith? He still would have fulfilled the prophect eventually. So once again, Luke would NOT have been necessary to bring Anakin back.

So my point remains. If Obi Wan and Yoda learn the truth of the Force and KNOW that Anakin will balance the Force, then none of the OT is necessary. No matter what, Anakin will destory the Sith and balance the Force. Whether Luke died, lived or became a plumber, it's gonna happen.

 

Here is an example of my argument from the EU

Ok, and all of my examples can be found in the films, which are canon.

Who says that Obi-Wan doesn't feel it? It is entirely possible if you look at what he means other that what he literally says.

He means exactly what he says, unless he created another definition for "destroyed".

Clearly, in Dark Rendezvous, Yoda felt it was possible.

Once again, EU.

Clearly you did not at all take into consideration the totally plausible alternative interpretations of those quotes which I posted earlier. Do not presume to know exactly what the characters are thinking, when there are multiple examples of them saying one thing but meaning something a little different. Star Wars is all about a certain point of view. The Force does not see things as black or white, and neither do Obi-Wan and Yoda.

And for the last time, all of your opinions are based on EU. While my proof is found in the films.

 

I hate to say it GDS, but for the first time your WRONG!(sounding like Donald Trump) A prophecy, or destiny is an absolute preordained path that a person, nation, world, etc unknowingly follows, which CANNOT be changed. When it comes to destiny, there are no options, only what was predetermined by God, fate, the force, etc. In this instance it was predetermined that Luke redeem his father, by causing Vader to destroy the Emperor-thus fufilling the prophecy. This was the ONLY way it could have happened.

Edit: And on a personal note, I hope it's my destiny to be surrounded by beautiful women, living the rest of my days in care free opulence.

 

i beleive that all the jedi that died, knew that anakin would, but they knew it was too early for the plan to destroy the sith to happen.

 

The Prophecy didn't say anything about Anakin having to be redeemed first. All he had to do was kill Sidious.

 

It really depends on how you interpret the prophecy. My interpretation was that inorder for the force to be in balance, all the Jedi and all the Sith had to die, and then it starts over again. Luke was the one sole Jedi who survived, and brought the order back to life. And it looks like to me there was only one way it could of happene. " Everything is going according to plan... "

 

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays. Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them."

"Which brings us to the often-asked question: Just what is Star Wars canon, and what is not? The one sure answer: The Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition -- the three films themselves as executive-produced, and in the case of Star Wars written and directed, by George Lucas, are canon. Coming in a close second we have the authorised adaptations of the three films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics."

-- Steve Sansweet, Preface to the "Star Wars Encyclopedia"


I DID explain my interpretation from a movie-only standpoint, some people are just unwilling to accept that there are alternative ways of looking at Yoda and Obi-Wan's words other than a 100% literal level. These EU excerpts just serve to further the point.

 

To answer the original post question:

Yes, I do believe (and I'm assuming this question refers to Yoda and OB1 only since presumably they are the only Jedi left after ROTS) that the Jedi believe that Anakin can come back from the dark side. However, just because they believe it could happen doesn't mean they think it will happen. Maybe that's where A New Hope refers to not only Luke, but a new hope in believing that the good side can come back again, hope in that everything will work itself out, even with the empire and the Emperor ruling the galaxy. I don't think they could rely on the Prophecy anymore. They relied on it throughout the whole PT and did it work out? Not so much. It would be extremely dangerous for them to even consider they would have had it figured out by the OT.

The thing about Luke is that they had to be extremely careful with him. They could only tell him so much. They were both right in that he needed to be a fully trained Jedi before he could confront Vader. I guess they learned this after seeing how Anakin was always so worried about Shmi and eventually went after her. Finding her then watching her die only led him closer to the dark side. Then how he felt about Padme supposedly betraying him with OB1 (Liar!). If OB1 told Luke right away who Vader was, Luke would have ran off looking for him, been caught, tortured to know where OB1 was, and then would have been subjected to join the dark side. It would have been "all too easy".

I believe the reason Yoda said "Unexpected this is..." is that I believe Yoda felt once Anakin had turned to the dark side and became Vader that he would not have identified himself with his former persona anymore. To Yoda, why didn't Vader just say, "I am the Dark Lord of the Sith and you will join me or die!". Why say the truth? Yes, I realize it can help convince Luke to join the dark side, but why would a sith lord need to do that? Isn't he powerful enough just to force him to do it? Luke wasn't a fully trained jedi yet, he easily could have made Luke join, why try to convince him? It wasn't like there were other Jedi that could help Luke, bail him out. Vader didn't need to tell him, but he did.

I think, in the back of their minds, if anyone could turn Vader back to Anakin, it was Luke. But they weren't counting on it. They had to prepare Luke to do whatever it took to defeat Vader and his Emperor. They couldn't let Luke go in thinking, "Well, they said to hope for the best and hope he turns back...". He had to be ready conquer them both. I think they felt if Anakin happened to turn back, then great. But they couldn't depend on it, the Rebellion and the whole galaxy was at stake.

 

I don't view the EU as canon either, regardless of what representatives from Lucasfilm say. The only thing I view as the "Holy Gospel" of Star Wars, are the films themselves. I haven't read much EU stuff, but some of what I have read comes off as just flat out nutty, and contradictory to the OT. These deviations only further invalidates the EU as being canon, IMO. So I don't consider it as a good reference when making citations to validate a point in the films themselves.

 

When it comes to destiny, there are no options, only what was predetermined by God, fate, the force, etc.

No, Anakin had a choice to help Mace or not. It was his own choice that brought his downfall. GL has said this himself (though I cannot find the quote to back it up).

I DID explain my interpretation from a movie-only standpoint, some people are just unwilling to accept that there are alternative ways of looking at Yoda and Obi-Wan's words other than a 100% literal level. These EU excerpts just serve to further the point.

Explain this quote to me then:

"When this happened, the good man who was your Father was destroyed."

How can anyone take this any other way other than Anakin being destroyed, gone, no more?

You still havn't answered some earlier questions I asked, instead you just answered by saying:

Clearly you did not at all take into consideration the totally plausible alternative interpretations of those quotes which I posted earlier. Do not presume to know exactly what the characters are thinking, when there are multiple examples of them saying one thing but meaning something a little different. Star Wars is all about a certain point of view. The Force does not see things as black or white, and neither do Obi-Wan and Yoda.

All of the quotes that I have posted are said in a very literal sense. No where in the OT is it even hinted at by Obi-Wan or Yoda that Anakin could be redemmed.

 

Very well said origjedi... I'm not sure why it's SO difficult to see how Obi-Wan (in particular) and Yoda could still believe, like Padme and Luke, that maybe, just maybe there is good still left in Anakin. And IF that remote possibility is the case than Luke is the only one to bring that out. But if not, Luke is also the only one who can get close enough to kill him.

"When this happened, the good man who was your Father was destroyed."

Yes this is true, but not in your dictionary definition way. Stop focusing on sematics and look at the true meaning. But just because something was once destroyed doesn't mean you can't rebuild it from the rubble. And this is another example of Obi-Wan giving Luke the best and worst aspects of his father, so he can choose for himself the path he must take.

All of the quotes that I have posted are said in a very literal sense. No where in the OT is it even hinted at by Obi-Wan or Yoda that Anakin could be redemmed.

So is Obi-Wan being literal when he says "your father wanted you to have this," and "He betrayed and murdered your father," "since before you were born." You can't pick the quotes that suit your argument and say that they're "literal". Obi-Wan has a long history of saying things from a certain point of view, because he has an agenda with Luke. It's a strategy to prepare him for what he has to do.

 

I agree. Obi-Wan doesn't necessarily mean what he says. For instance:

In RotJ, Obi-Wan & Yoda say that Luke must confront and destroy Vader before he can become a Jedi. Obi-Wan even goes on to say that if Luke doesn't then the Emporer has already won.

Now, do you think Obi-Wan & Yoda meant for Luke to go in there and kill Vader/Anakin physically? I don't think so. Just like Obi-Wan was talking symbolism in ANH, he is doing the same here. When he says Luke must destoy Vader, he means the evil inside Anakin. Obi-Wan knows that only Luke can do that, only Luke can find the good in Anakin and bring that out. That is how he is to destory Vader, not by a lightsaber ... but by love.

So yes, Obi-Wan and Yoda know that Anakin has good in him. But only Luke can find it. That's why the offspring were a threat to Vader in the first place.


kthxbye,