Thrawn's one failure: from a certain point of view...

From Heir to the Empire:

"Understood, sir," Pellaeon said. "With your permission, I'll get the Chimaera underway." He turned to go-

And paused. Halfway across the room, one of the sculptures had not disappeared with the others. Sitting all alone in its globe of light, it slowly writhed on its pedestal like a wave in some bizarre alien ocean. "Yes," Thrawn said from behind him. "That one is indeed real."

"It's...very interesting," Pellaeon managed. The sculpture was strangely hypnotic.

"Isn't it?" Thrawn agreed, his voice sounding almost wistful. "It was my one failure, out on the Fringes. The one time when understanding a race's art gave me no insight at all into its psyche. At least not at the time. Now, I believe I'm finally beginning to understand them."

"I'm sure that will prove useful in the future," Pellaeon offered diplomatically.

"I doubt it," Thrawn said, in that same wistful voice. "I wound up destroying their world."

Pellaeon swallowed. "Yes, sir," he said, starting again for the door. He winced only a little as he passed the sculpture.

Bizarre wave, huh?

Alien ocean?

Can we say... "frozen"?!

Can we say... "ice planet"?!

Can we say... "Csilla"!?

Just a curveball...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Aren't we grasping for straws today?

Seriously though, did Zahn even have a backstory to Thrawn's homeworld yet? Not only that, but the phrase, "like a wave in some bizarre alien ocean" just seems like a figure of speech, not some secretive hint.

Oh well, at least it is good to see that your brain is working overtime.

Anyways, I will be interested to see what others think about this theory.

--Adm. Nick

 

omg kamino!11!

 

Hmmmm.......intresting......

Thrawn's views were principally different than the Chiss race. They were orderly, structured, tradionalist, reserved, and isolationist. He was exiled because he was too different, too innovative, too brash.

Though if Thrawn destroyed them as an Imperial, why are the Chiss "allied" with the Empire? What was that Chiss planet (suppousedly Csilla) in Force Heretic? etc.

 

Thrawn's views were principally different than the Chiss race. They were orderly, structured, tradionalist, reserved, and isolationist. He was exiled because he was too different, too innovative, too brash.

But not different enough. Every single one of his failures happened because he failed to take change into account. Lets review:

-Failed to understand a species whose art indicates a constantly changing and shifting mentality.
-Failed to anticipate how C?baoth would change, growing more insane and powerful.
-Failed to understand the change in the Noghri.
-He started losing his final battle when variables started changing on him. He still had at least parity in firepower, but he no longer understood the variables.
-Failed to take precautions against the growing lake outside his cloning chambers.

Thrawn (and probably most Chiss) was great at analyzing any given situation and coming up with an excellent plan. And Thrawn (and probably most Chiss) was rather poor at adapting to shifting circumstances.

 

. . . or perhaps a subtle warning to Pellaon not to fail in the task he left to get on with.

 

"-Failed to understand a species whose art indicates a constantly changing and shifting mentality. "

But there's no order in such an attitude. How could a civilization exist with such ideals of.....inconsistency?

"-Failed to anticipate how C?baoth would change, growing more insane and powerful. "

Do you think so? I felt he prepared for what he could, with all the ysalamiri and trapping C'baoth in Mount Tantiss. Really, could anyone have anticipated C'baoth would have done what he did to Covell?

"-Failed to understand the change in the Noghri."

Did anyone detect a change until it was too late? While it was probably stupid to use one of them as a bodygaurd, the Noghri were a very helpful asset.

"-He started losing his final battle when variables started changing on him. He still had at least parity in firepower, but he no longer understood the variables."

The smuggler fleet wouldn't have ever joined the battle if Ferrier hadn't screwed up so royally. And even then, Thrawn still believed he could win the battle.

"-Failed to take precautions against the growing lake outside his cloning chambers. "

I just don't understand that one. What do you mean a growing lake?

 

But there's no order in such an attitude. How could a civilization exist with such ideals of.....inconsistency?

Alien species, alien thoughts. They'd probably wonder how a species as narrow-minded as the Chiss could possibly have developed civilization.


Do you think so? I felt he prepared for what he could, with all the ysalamiri and trapping C'baoth in Mount Tantiss. Really, could anyone have anticipated C'baoth would have done what he did to Covell?

It was obvious that he was growing in power and ambition. But Thrawn still underestimated him.


Did anyone detect a change until it was too late? While it was probably stupid to use one of them as a bodygaurd, the Noghri were a very helpful asset.

Pelleaon knew that something was up with them. Even Thrawn knew that something was off there. But the idea that they could have changed didn't occur to him.


The smuggler fleet wouldn't have ever joined the battle if Ferrier hadn't screwed up so royally. And even then, Thrawn still believed he could win the battle.

Maybe. But he was struggling on an even battlefield.



I just don't understand that one. What do you mean a growing lake?

Vision of the Future. Mara mentions that the lake is getting close to the point where it would break through into Thrawn's chambers. And later, Luke and Mara use that to their advantage.

 

But there's no order in such an attitude. How could a civilization exist with such ideals of.....inconsistency?

If the Fia can, why couldn't there be others?

Do you think so? I felt he prepared for what he could, with all the ysalamiri and trapping C'baoth in Mount Tantiss. Really, could anyone have anticipated C'baoth would have done what he did to Covell?

He might not have been able to predict the Covell incident exactly, but shouldn't he have realized that an increasingly insane and powerful Dark Jedi whose idea of power is absolute control of other beings shouldn't be allowed anywhere without ysalamiri and guards?

Did anyone detect a change until it was too late? While it was probably stupid to use one of them as a bodygaurd, the Noghri were a very helpful asset.

He notices that all the Noghri were acting strange, so why did he leave Rukh as his bodyguard until he could act on whatever suspicions he had? As to "helpful asset," where have we seen them do anything well in Imperial service?

The smuggler fleet wouldn't have ever joined the battle if Ferrier hadn't screwed up so royally. And even then, Thrawn still believed he could win the battle.

But why have Ferrier work for him at all, or do anything with the smugglers? Kill them, or leave them alone completely. The smugglers were Thrawn's own fault, and he should know that the easiest way to guarentee the success of a perfect ambush (which he had gift-wrapped) is to have overwhelming force, not slightly larger force.

I just don't understand that one. What do you mean a growing lake?

On Nirauan. Why put your cloning chamber next to a slowly eroding rock wall, when you have an entire fortress to put it in?

 

"On Nirauan. Why put your cloning chamber next to a slowly eroding rock wall, when you have an entire fortress to put it in?"

Oh, Nirauan. Good point. It did seem odd to put your slowly growing clone in the leaky basement, though it's the last place someone would look for it, right?

 

McEwok, you're overlooking the obvious truth: The planet Thrawn destroyed was Yuuzhan'tar. The Vong have no art, so Thrawn could learn nothing. I can't believe you didn't know that

 

Raven,

You have characterized Thrawn perfectly, he can't handle the variables. Thats why he fit so well with the Empire, they wanted everything to be the same and formulaic. If you told Thrawn this is what you have and this is what your enemy has he would find a way to win. However, if he went in not knowing what his enemy was he either had to figure them out fast or he was screwed. When the unexpected happened he fell apart. I think the whole ocean thing is brilliant because water is so dynamic.

 

That could seem like a sort of overview of the Chiss in general, judging from the bits and pieces we know of them already.

Interesting idea... Thrawn's main flaw being that he couldn't adapt well to change.. I'll go and think that one over.

 

The Vong have no art

Oh contrate, the Vong have art all over the place. The symbols they paint on themselves and their ships, and even the ships themselves are works of art.

 

Raven: excellent analysis! Have a Golden Ewok?!

However, there is a paradox considering what Thrawn did with the Empire, isn't there?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

However, there is a paradox considering what Thrawn did with the Empire, isn't there?


How do you mean?

 

Well, Thrawn was entirely different than anyone in the Empire.

He was nonhuman, he used innovative tactics, he refused to obey some of Palpatine's orders, and he often brashely jepordized his and his fleet's safety using risky strategies that could have ended in disaster. He was exiled from Chiss space as well for being too "chaotic", I guess you could say.

 

Well, Thrawn was able to adapt quickly to the sudden intrusion of Kinman Doriana and his taskforce into Chiss Space. Thrawn was also apparently able to clean, disassemble and reassemble Doriana's clock without taking significant losses.

Thrawn was also able to adapt to the appearance of Joruus C'boath on Wayland, though it is somewhat probable that Thrawn already knew of the C'boath clone.

Another thing that really bothered me about the whole cloning deal in VotF. Thrawn had been in the GFFA proper since at least the end of CoPL, yet the timer on the cloning cylinder was undoubtably set at ten years. And it's almost a given certain that Thrawn never returned to the EotH after returning to the GFFA post Endor. (which also brings up the question of how Parck and Co. got their ysalamiri) And since VotF takes place well into ten years after TTT, the numbers don't add up. So the whole cloning cylinder business looksrather fishy to me *unless there's a piece of info I missed out, or I'm counting the years incorrectly*

Just my two cents.

 

Raven: compare the Empire as Thrawn found it with the Empire as Thrawn left it? That said, it doesn't invalidate your suggestion - he doesn't like radical change, and he could be blind to it, in the way that you say...

Pelranius: oh, brilliant!

Have a Golden Ewok?!

But if Thrawn is supposed to be alive, and given that Zahn is Zahn, there should be a sneaky clue somewhere that nods directly to the audience on the issue - apart, of course, from the appearance of the real Thrawn on the covers of both VotF and SQ...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I'm not sure that it's that Thrawn can't handle change. It seems to me that his mind just adapts slowly to most things. Normally, he's enough steps ahead of everybody that he's already adapted, but when he can't anticipate something, he can't compensate fast enough and can't control whatever the "something" is.

 

Pelranius,

I think it is fair to say Thrawn returned to the Empire proper around the end of COPL. (I would actually really like to see a short story written about that) However, Thrawn was stabbed at Bilbringi and the Hand of Thrawn Duology takes place ~10 years after that. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that he went back to Nirauan prior to Bilbringi and reset his clone's chamber. Just because Zahn didn't write it in TTT doesn't mean it didn't happen. A decent amount of time goes by in those books - not just a few weeks. I saw no break in continuity.


Bee

 

Thrawn's most fundamental flaw was his overconfidence in his understanding of psychology. He underestimated the danger posed by C'Baoth. He failed to take the Noghri's strange behavior seriously enough.

He knew C'Baoth was insane and that his mental instability would only get worse, yet, he made no plans to replace C'Baoth as soon as possible, and provided him with increasing responsibility by putting him on Wayland. Letting a deranged, powerful lunatic anywhere near one of your most critical military installations is just utter lunacy. Would have been far more prudent to dispatch several battalions of stormtroopers and several commando teams and provide them with heavy weapons.

Thrawn should have known how the Noghri would operate, having been trained as assassins. They were not going to rebel against the Empire, since Honoghr could be very easily BDZed. The Noghri take honor very seriously, and the Empire perpetrated the greatest dishonor upon them, and they would lie in wait and bide their time for when to strike at Thrawn.

 

"-Failed to take precautions against the growing lake outside his cloning chambers. "


A-ha! the growing lake was the 'world' of which Thrawn destroyed due to a failure to understand the art of the inhabitants. He built his castle over the site of the demolished alien culture to hide his failure. Unfortunately, all the alien art is telling him is that very slowly, waves will crash down on you.... like it did to his cloning center.

either that or a growing lake, as a non-living thing, doesn't have culture, therefore doesn't have art, therefore can't be understood by someone like Thrawn.. darn all that geology, hydrology, and physics!!!

 

I think its better to use the term psychology, as opposed to psychoanalysis. Thrawn didn't have conversations with Pellaeon like this:

T: "General Bel Iblis is obviously still stuck in the phallic stage of psychosexual development."

P: ~Confused, just nods~

T: "Therefore we must make large, cylindrical tubes capable of expanding and use them to screen our fleet and make Bel Iblis scream and duck for cover like a little girl. And we must use many Strike Cruisers. Yes, they are the perfect shape."