Amph TOP GUN 2 (now with 100% more jon hamm)

Good summary @Sarge!

I can add that rear cockpit controls can be either configured for training with flight controls (F-16B/D, F-15B/D, F/A-18B), or for a RIO/WSO (F-14A/B/D, F-15E). The F/A-18D/F can have either a flight training rear cockpit or a WSO setup. I believe the F-15EX will have the same setup as the F-15D (with a modern cockpit and avionics).

Even in a RIO/WSO configured back seat, there will be a 'stick' or 'sticks' (hell, the back seat of the F-15E Strike Eagle has three sticks and a throttle!).

The question is: can the RIO/WSO sticks fly the aircraft in addition to operating the weapons systems. The answer (for 'teen' series fighters) is yes for USAF two-seat jets (F-15E), and no for US Navy two-seat jets (F-14 and F/A-18D/F).

Several F-15E aircrew and aircraft have been saved from crashes (incapacitated pilot) because of this feature.

I do not know the rationale for this, could be budget related as both the F-15 and F/A-18 are McDonnel Douglas / Boeing products.

 

Thank you for those detailed answers @Sarge and @JABoomer ! That's all very interesting and completely answered my question

I have one more question, if one or both of you don't mind... It's more about the accident in which Goose dies in the first movie...

So is it the case for those two-seater type of aircraft that either the RIO or the pilot can eject both seats at the same time? Like in the first movie (which I just rewatched this week after seeing the sequel), if I understood what was happening, Maverick was unable to reach the eject handle (due to being "pressed forward" during the "flat spin"), so Goose had to do it.

So... each of them has a handle that does the same thing-- a handle that when pulled, blows the canopy off and then ejects both seats at the same time? And why did Goose hit the canopy? Was it some type of a malfunction or just a risk that could potentially happen to either the RIO and/or the pilot anytime there is an ejection?

 

It's the latter - especially in the context of a flat spin situation.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/f-1...ived-the-flat-spin-featured-in-top-gun-movie/

‘Normally, within the ejection sequence, the canopy will automatically be blown off before the crews ejection seats fire. With forward airspeed, the canopy will always be well behind the aircraft when the RIO’s ejection seat fires.

‘However a flat spin provides a peculiar problem. Because there is no significant forward airspeed in the spin, the canopy is not blown behind the aircraft. Worse, there exists a partial vacuum just above a flat spin aircraft that can capture and hold a canopy in place above the aircraft. So when the RIO ejects, there is a strong chance he will impact the canopy hovering above. This has actually happened in real life.

 

Ah, thanks @Iron_lord ! That perfectly clarifies it

Ok, not to belabor this as obviously I know neither film is completely realistic, etc....but I'm also wondering why Maverick was cleared of any mistake/wrongdoing in the inquiry into the accident in the first film. In the events leading up to his plane being affected by the "jet wash" of Ice's plane, I thought the point was that Maverick was being impatient in telling Ice to move away so he could "take the shot" instead of serving a support function like he was supposed to be doing while Ice was trying to target the "enemy" plane (?)

I promise this is my last question lol

 

I figure that both Ice and Mav shared some responsibility for the accident - but since Ice was cleared, it was only fair to clear Mav as well.

 

Yeah, after making my post I started googling the question and found some answers that actually blame Ice for the accident. But watching it, what I initially took away was similar to this take I found on Quora:

Which is why I didn't understand why he was cleared.

But no matter, I still had fun rewatching it with my mom.

 

Yup. for example:

https://screenrant.com/top-gun-goose-death-blame-iceman-not-maverick/

As the top two trainees from their TOPGUN batch, Maverick and Iceman with their respective RIOs went into the tandem training session in Top Gun, motivated to come out as the winner. The exercise put them on the same team against their superiors, but points were earned individually. Both eventually got in the position to shoot LCDR Rick "Jester" Heatherly (Michael Ironside) giving them a shot at securing victory for the trainees. While Iceman got in front of Maverick and Goose, he couldn't get a clean shot. He was repeatedly asked to move out of the way so Maverick can take over, but he stubbornly stayed, trying desperately to take down Jester and prevent his direct competitor to score points over him. No matter how hard he tried, however, Iceman just couldn't get a lock on Jester's plane, forcing him to ultimately break off. Unfortunately, by the time Iceman got out of the way, it was too late; Maverick was too close on his tail, causing him to fly directly through the jet wash. This resulted in his aircraft suffering a flameout of both engines ending in a fatal flat spin. While Maverick was able to safely eject, Goose didn't; he hit the canopy on his way out with the intense impact causing his death.

Had Iceman given Maverick the opening when he was first asked to, the whole accident would've been prevented. Aside from the tragedy caused by his stubbornness, Iceman's actions also highlighted how individualistic he is — something that Maverick got in trouble for in their previous exercise after abandoning his wingman, Rick "Hollywood" Neven (Whip Hubley) to chase CDR Mike "Viper" Metcalf (Tom Skerritt) on his own. Iceman should've been reprimanded for this — at the very least, he should've been scolded or had his points reduced, otherwise, he should've also been investigated like Maverick. However, that wasn't the case; not only was he able to get away with it scot-free, he also emerged as the top pilot from their TOPGUN class.

 

lol, yeah that's exactly the page I came across

actually, I think the following Quora take provides the definitive analysis of the incident:

 

Slight correction. The F-15EX will have the same setup as the F-15E (with a modern cockpit and avionics). However, the WSO position will be optional (at least that's the plan at this time, as the F-15EX will initially replace the F-15C (a single seater).

The ability of the WSO to fly the plane will soon become inconsequential (beside being fun for the WSO), as aircraft (both military and civilian) are being fitting with automatic ground collision avoidance systems that will maneuver the aircraft out of harms way should the pilot become incapacitated while the aircraft is pointed at the dirt. In fighter aircraft, when the pilot becomes incapacitated it is usually due to g stresses, and it is momentary - see g-LOK.

If the pilot pulls the handle, both seats will eject. There is a pin in the RIO's ejection seat which allows you to select whether only the RIO ejects when the RIO pulls the handle or whether both crew eject (as in Top Gun). They would select RIO-only when a non-qualified aircrew was riding in the back (think ride-along, so a maintainer, Admiral, press, VIP). There have been a few F-14 passengers that have accidentally ejected themselves and the pilot landed the plane without a canopy, haha. When there's two pilots or a pilot and a RIO onboard, the RIO's seat would be set to eject both crew members.

If both seats are selected to eject, the RIO will always eject first (after the canopy blows), as it's not fair for the pilot (with the controls) to punch out first, leaving the RIO. The pilot will follow very shortly after. The two seats have rockets that direct them left and right (one in each direction) to limit the possibility of a collision.

As mentioned, hitting your own canopy after ejecting could happen in a flat spin.

You have to remember that it's a movie. In real life, TOPGUN student don't collect points, there is no first-place crew or trophy, an F-14 would not be following an adversary aircraft that closely 'to get a shot', and two F-14s would not be flying in that tight of a formation during combat.

The F-14 has very widely spaced engines. Losing one engine would often cause an F-14 to enter a flat spin because of the off-centered thrust created by the remaining engine.

So the situation seen in the movie isn't realistic. An engine compressor stall from flying through jet wash is. Entering a flat spin after losing an engine is. Is Maverick being cleared of fault realistic? In the context of the movie I would say, yes.

 

I always assumed Top Gun was a documentary.

 

haha, chris...considering the types of discussions I've witnessed here about Star Wars over the years, I think by comparison, my nerdy queries and musings in this thread have been quite restrained

 

Lots of great points, and I just want to re-emphasize the bold part. IRL, Top Gun is about turning fighter pilots into teachers who are able to share their expertise and training with the ones who have not been to the school. It is not a competition. I've never been through any military training that was treated like a competition. The universal attitude among trainees is, cooperate and graduate.

 

Would a real-life Top Gun pilot ever be heard uttering the immortal words, "you can be my wingman any time!"?

 

Oh sure, absolutely. But only with complete and utter irony. Like I said earlier, TG is very quotable, and we enjoyed quoting it for sarcastic laughs, especially when it makes no sense at all (heading out to sea in a flat spin ).

After the first one came out in '86, it became so culturally pervasive that the RL TG instructors got sick of hearing about it and made a rule that it was illegal to quote TG in their briefing room. I understand that it's a $20 fine for each offense.

 

Wow Maverick only dropped 15% this weekend and may actually win Sunday at the box office!
Impressive. Most impressive.

 

It's like TFA all over again.
But without lightsabers

 

@Pensivia, this video interview just posted today and has some interesting details about how ejecting from a Tomcat works.

 

Thanks @Sarge! Will definitely give that a listen.

This is off-topic for this thread, but I just wanted to say that it's cool to hear from pilots like you (and JABoomer I'm assuming?). Having that skill must be amazing. My dad flew small private planes and took me and my sister on several flights when I was little (in a Cessna and a Piper I think...this was back in the 70s).

Then in college, I (briefly) dated an aviation major who also took me up a few times (including for a few small "tricks" such a "stall" (?) ( is that something someone would learn as an aviation major?...can't remember exactly as this was over 30 years ago, lol--I just remember it being really fun though also somewhat scary...there were some papers on the dashboard at the front of the plane and I seem to remember them briefly floating upwards...).

Anyhoo, in conclusion, I think we can all agree that flying is indeed very

(and with that observation, we're now perfectly back on-topic with the main theme of the film!)

 

@Pensivia, that's good description of a basic stall. The simple version is, the plane flies slowly with the nose up until it's so slow that the airflow over the wings isn't enough to hold the plane up any more. Then the nose drops and the plane falls until it picks up enough speed to start flying again. Every pilot should be competent to perform and recover from a simple stall like that. There are other stalls that are more complicated and interesting, but that's not important right now.

 

I had no idea that the beginning of the RL TG school was so ragtag.

The Man Behind the Topgun Fighter Pilot School | HistoryNet

 

!!!

 

Cool stories from a guy who was a real TG instructor in the 80's.

 

Hey Sarge, what's the name for the plane with the big round thing on top?

 

Grumman E-2 Hawkeye. The round thing is a radar antenna. If you've heard of AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System), it's the same thing, but smaller so it can fly from aircraft carriers. Its mission is to get up high where the radar antenna can see everything and warn everyone else when the bad guys are coming. Northrop Grumman E-2 Hawkeye - Wikipedia

If you watch CW "Mover" Lemoine on youtube, his buddy TR "WOMBAT" Matson is a retired Hawkeye pilot.

 

I finally got around to seeing Top Gun Maverick this past weekend and if I wasn't smiling the whole time I was crying. Really great film. Small nitpicks aside, I really want to see it again. I'll have to go back and read previous posts, but I'm assuming the overall consensus is a good one, right?