ST Trees, The Force and Temples

Mungo Baobab, that was a really fascinating post!

Oddly enough, we have just of course been given a character name in the very same book that literally means Hermit: Armitage. Coincidence?

 

Ha, yes, well spotted. I confess that one passed me by!

 

Apologies for the double post...

From the SW.Com Databank entry on Dagobah:

"Surrounded by creatures generating the living Force, Yoda learned to connect with the deeper cosmic Force and waited for one who might bring about the return of the Jedi Order."
http://www.starwars.com/databank/dagobah

So, the presence of the Living Force allows one to connect to the Cosmic Force, which in a nutshell, explains the importance of the 'Jedi tree'.

From TCW's Yoda arc:

“Living beings generate the Living Force, which in turn powers the wellspring that is the Cosmic Force. All energy from the Living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the Cosmic Force, binding everything and communicating to us through the midi-chlorians.” - Qui-Gon Jinn

“When a living thing dies, all is renewed. Life passes from the Living Force into the Cosmic Force and becomes One within it. One empowers the other. One is renewed by the other.” - Force Priestess

From the perspective of a Darksider, it might be surmised that the more of the natural world one destroyed, the more of the Living Force would be released, and feed into the Cosmic Force, becoming accessible as Force energy to those who knew how to harvest it.

Further, if one were able to weaponize this energy, such as in the case of the Starkiller, you would effectively be transmuting light side energy into dark side energy, which would then feed back into the Cosmic Force. What effect would this have? Might this be an extension of the idea of 'corrupting' a source of the light side, such as the 'Cave of Evil' under the Gnarl tree on Dagobah, or the Sith Shrine buried under the Jedi Temple on Coruscant?

 

This fits with a theory I've had, that Skoke has been inside the Unknown Regions basically destroying life to give himself power (or extend his life).
Perhaps it took him some time to master the harnessing of the transmuting to himself, thus leaving the excess for Palpatine (Sith) to consume.

I'm interested to see if Snoke has become more powerful after the destruction of the Hosnian System (as a result of the mass amount of the living Force dying).

 

This is a great thread!

Mungo Baobab

I think it is totally right for this thread because Luke has gone to the First Jedi Temple to find the answers. It makes sense to me that there will be a clash of eremitic and cenobitis Jedi traditions somewhere in the movie. When characters go back to the place of the beginning, it's always because there's a need for change. But to understand what needs to change, one has to go back to very basics, when everything was pure.

This is an absolutely fantastic post. I've never heard this take before but it makes so much sense. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't "awakening" a new thing in Star Wars movies? There was vergence of the Force concentrated around Anakin but awakening seems to be something else. Maybe accelerated Force Sensitivity which could explain why Rey is learning how to use the Force so fast. You know, like Lucy (a Scarlett Johansson movie where overdose of some magic drug makes her titular character capable of using her brain 100% which leads to all kind of awe-inspiring stuff).

Again, this is fantastic idea. We don't know what his goal is but it would be redundant if he just wants to rule the galaxy like the Emperor. His interest in the First Jedi Temple must be about the Force itself so your theory makes a lot of sense.

Fantastic again. do you think that the Jedi tree (I'm assuming you are referring to the big burnt one from spoiler images) may have died due to corrupting source similar to ones you described? And if so how it would be or who would regenerate it?

 

hana_solo

An 'awakening' as a description for a person discovering their connection to the Force, is definitely new terminology for a Star Wars movie, and it's partly this phrase that first indicated to me that the filmmakers had gone back and re-examined SW's eastern philosophical influences.

Incidentally, I recommend getting hold of the Art of TFA book ( I think I must mention this book in one of my posts at least once a week ) wherein, it's revealed that Rick Carter's team drew inspiration from zen buddhist imagery, wabi-sabi, and samurai movies. It's clear that they were looking at this stuff during the development of TFA, from a story perspective as well as a design one.

Regarding the ascetic lifestyle of enlightenment through pain and endurance: This isn't something exclusive to the Yamabushi, as similar lifestyles are led by monks and hermits from many religions, but the Yamabushi are amongst the most extreme in their dedication to this path ( check out the Shugendo 'Living Buddhas' for a somewhat ghoulish example ), and they, along with other buddhist sects, are more closely linked to the idea of a spiritual awakening through communion with nature.

I don't know if anything has corrupted the tree on Ahch-To, but it looks like it might be dead....so it's possible. I do think that the gnarl tree on Dagobah was the source of the Force energy that could be felt within the cave benath the tree, though. John Williams' accompanying musical track for this scene was 'The Magic Tree', after all. So I think that this tree served a similar purpose to the one on Ahc-To, and the one that grew in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, but it had perhaps been corrupted by something in the cave, maybe?

 

This is a great thread, really deep.
I don't think the tree is dead just dormant because the force is out of balance. I'm anxious to see if your theories are right about an opening in the base of the tree and what secrets it may hold.
I also think that the Jedi were blinded by the dark forces seeping up to the Jedi Temple.

 

who says the force is out of balance?

 

Still reading through the last couple days of spec here but this guy's "leaks" give this thread food for thought:
https://iwasraisedtodoonething.com/2016/07/25/reincarnated-rey-give-me-a-break/#more-348

 

Any thread Mungo Baobab spends time in gets better for it.

 

Too kind, JabbatheHumanBeing. I think some days I simply have too much time on my hands...and you know, the mind starts to wander.

 

Long may it wander.

 

I did, MY theory....

 

Not sure on how legit this is, but it is very intriguing none the less.

 

Stop humbling us with your posts.

Long may you run.

 

Maybe we will have dual history lessons in episode 8? I would love to see Snoke training Kylo at some ancient dark side/Sith temple

 

More excellence from Mungo Baobab

Now that you mentioned samurai movies, as we all know, one of movies that Rian Johnson mentioned as the inspiration for Episode VIII is Three Outlaw Samurai. I haven't seen it so I cannot say how it will play into the movie, or whether it refers to the Jedi at all (could be something about the Resistance for all we know since military has its code of honor just like the Jedi and samurai). But lets assume it's the movie that partly influenced Jedi plot. This is what I found that I would like everyone's opinion:

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Outlaw_Samurai

What does it all mean? Will the Jedi code be re-examined and perhaps changed in some ways? What kind of Jedi stereotypes could Luke, Rey and

Spoiler

Kylo Ren

play assuming they are Three Outlaw Jedi so to speak, how will they be deconstructed and what their role will be in the grand scheme of things (I'd say that bringing all those powerful characters to the place where it all began is some grand plan)?

@Master of None

You raise an excellent question that has been puzzling me for quite awhile. If Anakin brought the balance to the Force, why is it out of balance again? How does balance of the Force work anyway? I'd appreciate if someone explained that because I find it somewhat confusing.

 

Lowbacca was a character for many years before Lucas made that decree.


As for the force and it's balance, it was never said that Anakin balancing the force was a permanent act. I guess we need more information on this.

 

rumsmuggler Thank you!

 

You're welcome.

 

I'm going to try and make a post in the same fashion as Mungo Baobab, I'd hate to take away from the Hermit discussion, but maybe this will tie in a bit.

DISCLAIMER: There is likely going to be a glaring hole in my theory, please feel free to make me aware, if / when one is found.

Since ROTS, I have been fascinated with Qui-Gon Jinn's encounter(s) with the Shaman of the Whills, who the Shaman is and what role the Shaman (or any Shaman) plays in the Star Wars Galaxy.

Now the question is, was the Shaman who taught QGJ a Shaman before he/she "achieved the ability to defy oblivion" or was it the achievement that made him a Shaman?
I'm thinking it was the former, otherwise, wouldn't the Force Ghosts be Shamen? ...also, in my limited research, it seems a Shaman is typically a living being who works as a representative between the living and the spirits.

We know that Snoke is the leader of the FO and wants to take control of the Galaxy, but could he have a greater agenda?
The Clone Wars tell us that the Sith cannot become Force Ghosts, so I wonder if it would be more beneficial for a Dark-sider to seek to become a Shaman, where it may be possible to control those who have entered into the ethereal realm?

From the little we do know of Snoke, he does appear to have some of the signs of going through the 'Stages'.

Unlike the Shaman of the Whills who taught QGJ, a Shaman is typically is not known for having the ability to become a Spirit/Ghost, they are however able to work between the living and the spirits. Maybe this is the next best option for a Dark-sider?

 

Hmmmm, Snoke seems to fit most, if not all, those requirements. Torture, dismemberment, scraping away of flesh... Have you seen Snoke's face? (Not trying to be silly here, dead serious, the guy's been through some stuff). Perhaps Snoke's dark side intelligence comes, not from some past association with Palpatine, but from a current one? Perhaps Snoke can commune with Palpatine, Plagueis, Bane, all our sith friends, in the same way that Luke can with Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin. Now there's a scary thought! Igneous certainly make Snoke more interesting than your run of the mill power hungry dictator villain.

After reading many of your posts, suddenly, my dark energy/SKB was practice for something far more sinister for Snoke theory isn't so strange. Good stuff. Thanks for opening up my imagination, people!

 

I know this is just the logo of a small shopping mall in Petaling Jaya but notice how it has the design of something like a "tree of life" (that mall has this big tree in its courtyard though, hence the inspiration for the logo)? I think that's the importance of trees in Jedi philosophy - it's a true giver of life as evident by the oxygen it produces for all living things to breathe, as well as being one of several possible sources where Jedi and Sith alike derive the energy for them to channel the Force.

Correct me if I'm wrong though!

 

Darth Archimage fantastic post! I'm wondering if anyone who has read Aftermath Life Debt thinks that Snoke is

Spoiler

either Gallius Rax or the power behind Gallius Rax that Rax could have excavated on jakku? This quote

makes me think that maybe he was buried (nether region/land of the dead) for the purpose of shamanism and than uncovered during excavations for Palpatine either on purpose or unwittingly.

 

@Darth Archimage - Some interesting ideas going on there, particularly about the relationship between shamanism and power over the spirit world, and ascetism.


On the spirit world / Netherworld of the Force:

The idea that the balance of the Force is something that can be shifted to achieve a particular purpose, with real, tangible effects, is something that seems to go back to Lucas's earliest ideas.

This is from an analysis of the second draft of ANH:

"THE FORCE OF OTHERS A picture of how the Force works can be gathered from lines in the script. Anyone can feel the Force when it is in use, and it can have a strong effect on some alien species, such as Monduths. In fact, a primary use of the Force seems to be influencing large groups of people in battle. The Force can be strong among a group, or in a place (The Bogan force is strong with the enemy. The power of the Bogan is strong on the Death Star). When the Bogan is directed at a group, it can have a devastating effect. (The Bogan force is too strong upon us. Our spirit is broken. The Bogan is already beginning to work on you…Will you flee like frightened children again? We were overwhelmed; his plan was hopeless as this new plan of his is hopeless…). Of course, the Ashla can have the same effect. (Yes, my Lord, the Ashla Force is strong upon us. I can’t hold the panic). It is within the power of strong willed individuals to try to fight off the effects of the Force. (You must rally the men, fight off your despair. You’re feeling the Bogan’s despair. Be strong, drive it from your thoughts. It’s the Bogan force making you feel that way. Don’t give up hope… fight it! We must strain — counter the force). For servants of the Ashla, fighting the Bogan seems to involve positive thinking. (Think of good things. The force of the Bogan is strong, and if you don’t feel you can make it, you probably won’t). There seems to be a balance to the Force. When one side gets stronger, the other gets weaker. It is possible to weaken one side so much that its servants lose contact with it. (With every Jedi death, contact with the Ashla grows weaker, and the force of the Bogan grows more powerful. Your contact with The Force of Others is weak to the point where it can no longer be trusted. The Force of Others is no longer with us). At times like those, faith seems to be a very important question. (The force of others is still with us… This new attack formula is contrary to the cyborg plan and depends too much on faith…a faith that deserted us at Ogana Major. Our blind, unwavering faith in you and the Ashla has led to our doom… His son brings us new faith)."
http://starwarz.com/starkiller/second-draft-sourcebook/


If the relative strength of the Light or Dark sides could have such an effect upon the state of the galaxy, then this quote from one of the early drafts of ESB seems to suggest that the netherworld of the Force is also affected by the state of balance, or lack of balance, between the two:

"'Feel not think.' You can become a physical manifestation of the Force - weapon in the continual struggle of the two sides of the Force to control the netherworld of which we are a part. " - From the Making of The Empire Strikes Back



In the Tarkin novel, it was revealed that Palpatine's ultimate aim was to achieve a god-like control over the Force, which seems to suggest that spreading the dark side across the galaxy, and thus presumably, weakening the light, would help to achieve this goal.

"he would not allow himself to be sidetracked from his goal of unlocking the secrets many of the Sith Masters before him had sought: the means to harness the powers of the dark side to reshape reality itself; in effect, to fashion a universe of his own creation. Not mere immortality of the sort Plagueis had lusted after, but influence of the ultimate sort. As his Empire swelled, bringing more and more of the outer systems into its fold, so too would his power unfurl, until every being in the galaxy was held captive in his dark embrace."

So, it seems possible that complete control over the nature of the Force might also extend to the Netherworld.



Shamanism in Star Wars is interesting, too. We have traditionally seen the Force through the eyes of the Jedi and the Sith, two sides of the same coin, as the Sith originally came from the Jedi Order. Their dualistic cosmology is similar to religions such as Taoism, Manichaenism, and Jainism, and Taoism has it’s roots in shamanism, and folk religions, specifically, Wuism. – which shares traits with the Japanese Shinto - which itself was incorporated into the Shugendo religion of the Yamabushi that I posted about the other day.

The Shaman of the Wills sounds like a figure from an earlier, folk religion, perhaps one of the earlier religions that pre-date the Jedi. Then we have the Mortis trio, who represent the Force’s aspects of light, dark, and balance ( and, I’ve theorised, as representations of these three concepts, are perhaps similar to Hinduism’s three major deities, Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva – The preserver, the creator, and the destroyer ), and now, The Bendu, who seems to come from the earth itself, possibly representing an older, chthonic spirit, or deity. Maybe something like Tolkien’s Ents, rock giants, or the Landvaettir, or Jotnarr of Norse myth.

The Church of the Force, and the sacred planet Jedha, probably represent part of this folk religion aspect of the Force.

On the roots of Taoism:

“Some elements of Taoism may be traced to prehistoric folk religions in China that later coalesced into a Taoist tradition.In particular, many Taoist practices drew from the Warring-States-era phenomena of the wu (connected to the shamanic culture of northern China) and the fangshi (which probably derived from the "archivist-soothsayers of antiquity, one of whom supposedly was Laozi himself"), even though later Taoists insisted that this was not the case. Both terms were used to designate individuals dedicated to "... magic, medicine, divination,... methods of longevity and to ecstatic wanderings" as well as exorcism; in the case of the wu, "shamans" or "sorcerers" is often used as a translation.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

On Wuism:

“Chinese shamanism, alternatively called Wuism (Chinese: 巫教; pinyin: wū jiào; literally: "wu religion, shamanism, witchcraft"; alternatively 巫觋宗教 wū xí zōngjiào), refers to theshamanic religious tradition of China.Its features are especially connected to the ancient Neolithic cultures such as the Hongshan culture. Chinese shamanic traditions are intrinsic to Chinese folk religion, an overarching term for all the indigenous religions of China. Wu masters remain important in contemporary Chinese culture.
Various ritual traditions are rooted in original Chinese shamanism: contemporary Chinese ritual masters are sometimes identified as wu by outsiders,[ though most orders don't self-identify as such. Also Taoism has some of its origins from Chinese shamanism: it developed around the pursuit of long life (shou 壽/寿), or the status of a xian (仙, "mountain man", "holy man")”

“The Chinese word wu 巫 "shaman, wizard", indicating a man who can mediate with the powers generating things (the etymological meaning of "spirit", "god", or nomen agentis, virtus,energeia), was first recorded during the Shang dynasty (ca. 1600-1046 BCE), when a wu could be either sex. During the late Zhou dynasty (1045-256 BCE) wu was used to specify "female shaman; sorceress" as opposed to xi 覡 "male shaman; sorcerer" (which first appears in the 4th century BCE Guoyu). Other sex-differentiated shaman names include nanwu男巫 for "male shaman; sorcerer; wizard"; and nüwu 女巫, wunü 巫女, wupo 巫婆, and wuyu 巫嫗 for "female shaman; sorceress; witch".
The word tongji 童乩 (lit. "youth diviner") "shaman; spirit-medium" is a near-synonym of wu. The Chinese tradition distinguishes native wu from "Siberian shaman": saman 薩滿 orsaman 薩蠻; and from Indian Shramana "wandering monk; ascetic": shamen 沙門, sangmen 桑門, or sangmen 喪門.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_shamanism



it seems to me that if these various, earlier Force belief systems were to follow the progression of earth religions, we might expect that the ancient GFFA saw quite a wide array of Force based folk religions and shamanism, some of which eventually fed into the belief system of the Jedi Order, which went on to become the dominant Force based religion in the galaxy.

It’s possible that these older religions might linger on in small pockets, or some have subsequently died out completely.