main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate Universal basic income

Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent, Jun 26, 2015.

  1. Dread Pirate Roberts

    Dread Pirate Roberts Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2017
    Thanks for the follow up @VadersLaMent

    The architect of it seemed to think that 100 years from now Universal basic income will be thought of as universal suffrage. That is a bit extreme.
     
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    It's an extremely stupid idea, Dread Pirate, hence the adherents having stupid ideas to the extreme.
     
    QUIGONMIKE likes this.
  3. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
  4. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    The main thing the trial will need to consider is Behavioural Economics 101 and whether it actually suprasses the welfare system it replaces.

    History says it will not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
  5. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
  6. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    [​IMG]


    anakinfan edit: spoiler tagged for one non-TOS-friendly word.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2021
  7. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    I wonder that too. And, of course - have to bring up the old How is this being paid for and are ALL other programs that give people stuff terminated? That would be a requirement, IMO.

    @VadersLaMent - That Twitter thing you posted is, well, Im not sure. Is this lady SURE that people will want to work when they can just skate by? If we take young parents or young people in general out of the labor pool, whos doing the work then? So only childless 30 year olds through 55 year olds actually produce anything? The elderly in the USA already mostly dont work so they dont really count here. The idea is that the workforce needs to be made up of the younger folks so they can replace the older folks when they retire. She also assumes that companies will be fighting over workers and be forced to pay more to "beat" the freebies offered by UBI. It doesnt take an economics degree to figure out what thats going to do to prices of goods and services. Hint: They'll go up. Then, the dollar becomes worth much less. UBI is then too low. I dont think it'll work.

    Look - if UBI replaces all other things and its a maintainable amount(not too much) then thats got some potential. But this idea that "people shouldnt have to work" is right out of the hippie-Kum-ba-ya" playbook, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  8. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    I see you selectively read that.. In fact you could browse through the thread for information and look into it yourself. Every test it has been given produces the result of people still working.
     
    CT-867-5309, Ghost, Nobody145 and 3 others like this.
  9. FatBurt

    FatBurt Sex Scarecrow Vanquisher star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    People shouldn't have to work if they don't want to though. Why should we have to "Do" something?

    I've worked a couple of jobs in the past where I would loved to have told my then boss to shove it and walk out but I couldn't afford to so I continued to be treated like crap until I found a new employer.

    Had I been on UBI, I would have been able to leave knowing that my basic necessities were covered and I would have the time to find the right job for me.

    When my kids were born, I would loved to have taken some time off with them and help my missus whilst she was on maternity leave. I was allowed to do so if I wanted but I would have been unpaid for the duration. Not a great option with the introduction of a new and expensive child. With UBI I could have taken a career break and supported my missus AND bond with my child.

    UBI isn't a panacea to fixing everything but I would 100% support it being looked into further.

    Either that or PAY A FRIKKING DECENT WAGE so that people don't need to work three jobs just to exist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  10. Lowbacca_1977

    Lowbacca_1977 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2006
    They're about 10 million people and the US has about 160 million people in the labor force. One out of every 16 people doesn't seem like it can be handwaived out.
    https://www.prb.org/aging-unitedstates-fact-sheet/


    Why on earth would anyone think that the employers are competing against what the UBI offers?
     
  11. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Skate by. ie: I assume people will end up working less than I do, and that scares me because I like to feel superior to some people based on my work output. I might end up realizing what they do and that there's more to life than the amount of work I perform for a system that only values my life because of the work I do for the people that own the system.

    I think we should all be skating by. I think if people didn't have to worry about working just for survival, we'd end up with a more prosperous, and less ruthless, society. I also think 30 hours a week tops is 'enough' work for, well, everyone. I don't think our work for wealthy people - those who can already 'skate by' - should be our measure of value in order to survive life.
     
  12. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I completely agree with this. It'd be nice if the U.S. could implement a 4 day work week. They won't, but I can dream.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Sums it up.

    The whole idea that people do not deserve to stay alive if they don’t work or justify to some self-appointed “powers” why they are not working (or even better, not working “hard enough”) is straight out of the Puritan playbook, and the Puritans were evil.

    I wish I could be surprised that people support such a cruel philosophy.

    I’m more of an advocate for a living wage combined with universal health care not tied to employment as well as stronger labor laws than an advocate for UBI (although why not both?). But like @FatBurt I think it is worth looking into.
     
  14. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Like what happened in Seattle when the $15 minimum wage was implemented 6 years ago? We heard the same excuse from conservatives then, too. Hint: They didn't go up.
     
  15. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    That's... not entirely accurate. It was a mixed bag in Seattle across all slices apparently:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/02/sea...-in-2014-heres-how-its-turned-out-so-far.html
     
    JediVision and QUIGONMIKE like this.
  16. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    I think in 500 years, our successors will look back at today and consider the idea that people used to have to work jobs (often ones they didn’t like) just to survive, as a form of slavery. A future civilization where work is optional, and people are free to pursue what they enjoy in life (or can voluntarily work to generate more resources for themselves than are provided by the state), is an inevitability, I think. With the help of AI, of course.
     
  17. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    They don't really get much into prices apart from anecdotal stories in that article.

    Here's a study about the effect on grocery prices in Seattle following the minimum wage increase - the result is that there was no appreciable difference caused by it.

    Also, the effects on businesses never reached the hysteria that conservatives insisted would happen:
    "Generally, those business owners who threatened to leave Seattle to evade the new wage haven’t been following through. “The restaurant industry moans and groans about minimum wage increase, but the Seattle newspaper every month has a story about 40 new restaurants opening,” said Jennifer Romich, a University of Washington social policy researcher. (According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of jobs in restaurants and bars in the Seattle area has grown from 134,000 to 158,000 since 2015.)"
     
    VadersLaMent and Bor Mullet like this.
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I’ve seen AI and automation used as an argument for UBI, in that many unskilled jobs are going in that direction. UBI is certainly a better response to automation than “keep unskilled job wages as low as possible so employers will not automate.”
     
    Ghost, blackmyron and Bor Mullet like this.
  19. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    No, I replied to some of the claims about how people shouldnt have to work and about taking young parents out of the work force. Thats exactly what that person said. What tests have been done? Oh.... the ones in small, separated countries with completely different dynamics and an immensely smaller population than the US has? Not a good test case. Show me a country with our diversity, population numbers & other unique challenges thats done UBI with an established track record of real prosperity and we can go from there.

    30 hours a week tops? And you expect say $60K++ a year(or more) for that along with a pension, free health care, free college, free <other stuff> too? My goodness. Geesh. Reminds of the movie Dumb and Dumber when Lloyd says "You cant find a job anywhere unless you want to actually work 40 hours a week!" :D. So, to me this all still sounds like a way for people to just do nothing and have their needs supplied to them by someone elses labor/investments. Yeah theres a lot more to life than work but you work so you can like buy stuff and sustain yourself and your family. I dont see the problem. Its called a balance. 40 hours a week isnt that much. Guess I wasnt raised like this. If you want something then go get it & make it happen. Like millions upon millions of people from all walks of life have since the start of this nation.

    Actually, some places do allow four 10 hour shfits. Heck, Id be OK with a 32 hour work week myself. I assume people expect the same pay they were getting for 40 hours though?

    Of course it was a mixed bag. Oh and lets revisit that place in a few years to see how great thats all going. Its so obvious we have very few if any business owners posting here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  20. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    No you buried your head and act like this is new. You like to spin. A lot. "Small separated countries". What were they supposed to do to test it, ram it down everyone's throat around the world? Lol, of course they were and until it is actually implemented you'll deny it works.
     
  21. FatBurt

    FatBurt Sex Scarecrow Vanquisher star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2003
    30hrs a week sounds good to me, 4 days working and 3 days off. Businesses do NOT need the insane level of profits they get, lower the average working week but pay the same salary, take on a few more heads and pay them the same salary and you’ll see that as more people have free time AND disposable income, they’ll go out and spend it.
    See above and yes.
     
  22. DarkGingerJedi

    DarkGingerJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2012

    Yes. 30 hours a week and whatever pay it takes to "survive". Same pay. $60K. $120K. Whatever. What's dumb about that?

    40 hours is an artificial construct to control people's lives, so that their entire life experience is set around working for other people's profit. If you have to work 40 hours (and let's be real here, its usually way more than that, it used to be even more 100 years ago), just to survive, just to sustain your family, that leaves workers with little time to play, learn, grow, enjoy life, or ... and this is the real reason ...to plan a way out, change jobs, realize they have no way out, or plan to over throw the system that subjects them to this paradigm.

    And your production worries are largely meaningless. Workers productivity has increased by orders of magnitude over the last century and pay has stalled. If minimum wage kept up with inflation, and production, workers at McDondald's would be making over $24 per hour today. And we can't even get them to 15.

    But you make it very clear. You see life outside of 'work' as meaningless. That those who aren't working as hard as you, must be cheating or taking advantage of you. That already happens, only it happens from the top down. But you seem to only care about a certain kind of people doing it.

    We need to unlearn what we have taught ourselves. There is no reason why 40 hours must be the way of things. There's no reason why work to survive must be our system. And maybe just maybe, if we worked just a little less we'd realize that our lives aren't just meant to work to survive, we wouldn't be taught to participate in some useless rat race that only helps the rich, or those at the top, or consume things, buy stuff, or become filthy rich at someone else expense. Because that's how capitalism 'survives', at someone ele's expense with unlimited cheap/slave labor which has no control over their lives.

    And lastly, your desire or ability to work 40+-50-60-80 hours a week is not impressive. It's sad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  23. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Maybe, maybe not. But there are people that work with labor market statistics and economics that might know a little more than a 'working class' [sic] person like yourself.
    And since you missed it the first time:
    "Generally, those business owners who threatened to leave Seattle to evade the new wage haven’t been following through. “The restaurant industry moans and groans about minimum wage increase, but the Seattle newspaper every month has a story about 40 new restaurants opening,” said Jennifer Romich, a University of Washington social policy researcher. (According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of jobs in restaurants and bars in the Seattle area has grown from 134,000 to 158,000 since 2015.)"
    It's clear that you didn't read his article or mine, or have done the least bit of research on your own - just quoting part of a post that agrees with a sentiment you have.
     
    DarthPhilosopher likes this.
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    All of this.

    And yes, there are business owners posting here, one of whom is a moderator. What we probably do not have here is business owners who think it is their divine right to exploit people in order to line their pockets with as much profit as possible, while firing workers for trying to unionize and telling them that if they don’t want to be exploited then maybe they should have planned their careers better when they were in middle school.

    I also love it when right wingers use “diversity” as an excuse for why the USA is so “unique” meaning uniquely worse than other first world democracies and just “can’t” take care of its people. It’s code for “all those Black and Brown people and non-English-speaking people might get to participate in any social safety net we create!”
     
  25. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Who decides what "insane level of profits" are though? And if people are willing to work the jobs and commerce continues then why should they stop for those that prefer not to work? You really think small businesses have insane profit levels? Look, I’ve said many times that wage stagnation is real and cost of living increases should be built into any salary structure. But....I dunno about the rest of this stuff. Sounds real pie in the sky to me. Profit is clearly A swear word around these parts but that’s what makes like everything function. Profit is why there are jobs at all.