Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

Unintelligible.

 

I actually like it. It's funny. I like that the Caretakers have Celtic celebrations. Like Rey, Chewie and Artoo. I even think there's a lesson to be taught in half of what Luke gave her. Him telling her a true Jedi doesnt run off half-cocked and staying in balance is pretty crucial. Then it just goes right back to him being a crusty old fart that thinks the Jedi should fade away forever.

The first half could easily have led to the lesson that had Rey not let her emotions cloud her perceptions, she would have known that the village was jubilant rather than believed the story Luke told her. Calm down, clear your mind, and what does the Force tell you? Simple lesson conveyed by the wise old man as trickster.

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The message he actually voices doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems like he's being unfair and sort of ahistorical about the Jedi. That said: it's the clearest explanation of what's meant by "balance."

 

Ehh I don't think he meant the Jedi shouldn't defend, rather don't make the situation worse by getting involved.

 

Of course - but we almost never see the Jedi not act when directly confronted with something like that. He's right that they might not act impulsively or out of darker impulses, but - and maybe it's just because as a necessity of storytelling we always see Jedi acting heroically - we almost always see them try.

 

So a Jedi is just supposed to stand by and let these hypothetical raiders rob innocent people of their livelihoods? How does that serve the cause of peace and justice?

 

What Luke is accusing the Jedi of is:

1. Not acting unless they can be sure to be in control of themselves. Which, sort of fair.
2. Getting lost in philosophizing and big picture analysis. Which seems less fair.

 

I think the point is more about not jumping in half cocked. Helping people is the right thing to do, but you should make sure you understand what's going on first. It reminds me of the classic Doctor Who episode Galaxy 4. Learning to assess the situation as well as being mentally calm before assisting is always important

 

I think if it were a good, earnest lesson that would be the point. But Luke's actual point is that waiting is stupid and running in to save them was the right thing to do.

 

I don't think it's a common thing for Jedi to think, but I think it's a symptom of Luke looking too far towards the horizon. I do think it's understandable for someone to think that if you know that helping will cause more suffering later. It's just a bit too deterministic.

 

Yeah like Luke is so focused on possible outcomes that he refuses the make the right decision in the here and now. It reminds me of the issue with the prime directive; you cannot allow yourself to let bad things happen just cause there is a potential that it will make things worse down the line. A leader has to be able to act, and if they messed up they have to be able to own that

 

@Vialco and @DarthPhilosopher I think you're not accounting for the fact that Luke means the opposite of what he says, here.

 

Really? Why doesn't he just change that philosophy about the Jedi? It seems in the two lesson (this isn't the third btw, according to Rian) he believed it to be a fundamental flaw that he couldn't identify.

 

It's not obtuse. During the party he outright tells Rey he was messing with her.

Luke doesn't seem to think he can change anything - ultimately Yoda's the one that has to tell him to stop clinging to what the Jedi used to be. It's sorta tragic - Luke surpassed Yoda and Obi-Wan by reaffirming the real strength of the Jedi and saving the Chosen One...but then sees it as his duty to restore the Jedi as they were, rather than as they could be.

 

Oh I'm sure. I've only heard what he says to her before she runs down, I haven't watched the whole scene.

Novel:

Spoiler

But he changed the rule about attachment?

 

Since we don't know much about Luke's Jedi, we don't know what he taught about attachment.

 

Novel

Spoiler

We know what he taught Leia.

 

Honestly, Luke waffles back and forth so much in TLJ that I'm sometimes not sure what he believes. In that scene where he goes to burn down the tree, for example. He sounds very determined to do it. But he keeps drawing back and just can't bring himself to do it. And when Yoda does what he couldn't, he reacts in shock and tries to save them.

For a character who was able to make decisions easily in the OT, Old Luke is certainly unsure of himself.

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Well with the tree, he knows what's right but can't bring himself to do it. With this, he provokes Rey to run to illustrate to her that what he describes as the Jedi way is insufficient.

 

I think Luke *is* unsure of what he believes and what is the best course of action. On the one hand, he believes there is a fatal flaw in the Jedi way and that they only make matters worse. On the other, he is completely devoted to the Jedi religion personally.

He knows, in his gut, what is right. Yet he has this mental block and cant allow himself to follow his gut. I believe that mental block is his discouragement and pessimism about the Jedi and himself.

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You've basically summarized what I didn't like about Luke's character in The Last Jedi. This kind of depressed behavior isn't what I want to see from my heroes. It's been said before others, including Mark Hamill, but TLJ Luke Skywalker isn't my Luke Skywalker. I remember the man who stood up the Galactic Emperor and refused to submit. The man who took down the Death Star. The man who was a hero and an inspiration to billions.

The Luke we saw in TLJ is a far cry from that great man. He's a failure, not a hero. And to me, that's sad.

"That old Legend of Luke Skywalker you hate so much? I believed in it."

We all did.

 

Right. The movie tries to hype Luke's failures as his teachings that Rey is supposed to learn from, but there was nothing new or unique in Luke's mistakes that Rey couldn't have learned from someone else, even from a non-Jedi.

As I said earlier in this thread,

What mistake does Rey need to learn from? How to keep your nerves calm and not ignite your lightsaber in an extremely stressful moment? Rebuild the Jedi Order? How not to run away when the galaxy needs you? Anyone could have told her this well before she met Luke.

It's not so much that Luke slipped up in the incident with Ben, but that he ran away and didn't correct it. It honestly would have been better if at the end of 7 Rey is told that Luke is in prison for attempted murder of Ben Solo and negligent standards at his school (Luke had a bad lawyer and the parents of murdered students wanted vengeance and influenced the courts).

Leia and Rey's influence gets Luke out in 8, he owns up to his mistakes like a man, and they try to think of a plan to fix them.

 

Meanwhile, I remember a young man who nearly turned his back on his destiny because he was afraid and it was easier to stay where he was. ("It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now.") I remember a man who abandoned his responsibilities to the Rebellion to chase a ghost. (If you've seen the deleted scene from Empire where Luke tells Leia he's leaving, Leia is pissed.) I remember a man who then abandoned his training to rush off on a complete failure of a rescue mission. I remember a man who nearly turned to the dark side because his sister was threatened.

You're choosing to remember Luke at the end of each movie, without remembering how much self-doubt and wrong-headedness plagued this young man along the way. But you won't extend the same point of view to The Last Jedi, ignoring the hero and inspiration to billions he was at the end of that film in favor of holding on to the self-doubt and wrong-headedness.

 

I suppose the difference between our viewpoints is that I expected Luke to learn from his previous mistakes and not make them again. To actually grow as a character in a positive way.

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It's a bit like Samus Aran regressing in Metroid Other M. Despite beating Ridley multiple times in previous games, she suddenly has a panic attack upon seeing him. While it's not completely out of character (Ridley killed her parents), one would think her previous victories would have gotten her past the trauma, not make her regress.