"UNLIMITED POWER!" and so did Palpatine really have it?

Mace would have lost to Palpatine in the long run. Even if Anakin had not come. Let's just say that it was all real that Mace got Palpatine on his back. Palpatine still could have won. He fought Yoda without a lightsaber and he wasn't considered defenseless then. In the RotS novel or Dark Lord Palpatine comments that the Sith no longer needed a lightsaber to fight with but used them anyway to humilate the Jedi.

 

Given how quickly Dooku(who was more powerful than Maul/arguably Vader) died after being disarmed, I tend to think it's just another example of Palpatine's overconfidence.

 

I couldn't agree more.
Instead of gloating over his own superiority over the Jedi, Sideous should have practiced his lightsaber and thus not have lost to two Jedi.
The movies show that Sideous lost to Mace, he tried to fry him but failed. He exaggerated his weakness to get Anakin on-board - but Mace wasn't buying it, so if Anakin hadn't stepped in, Sideous would be in great trouble...

 

Disturbing. I wonder what this means?

That they don't want to show definitively that Plagueis had the power to create life? Would that be for political reasons?

That someone "higher up" read Dark Lord and decided they don't want a second book to support Dark Lord's assumptions regarding Plagueis?

Or is it that the Muun thing is being reconsidered?

I sense a great disturbance in the Force...

 

This might have been said by someone else during this discussion, but I believe that most of what Palpatin was telling Anakin was BS to put it nicely. He knew that Anakin was both naiv and in an emotionalstate of confussion, and Palpatine was lying through his teeth.

All he had to do was tell Anakin, what he knew Anakin wanted to hear and to stroke Anakins ego. It would then only be a matter of time before Anakin would do what Palpatine wanted.

I admit that Palpatine was powerful, but as soon as Palpatine started telling Anakin that he didn't have the power to cheat death, Anakin should have known something was wrong. I mean Padme is pregnant and Anakin knows she would die in childbirth, so he had to get that power now and not after years and years of studying the Dark Side.

 

QFT...

My apprentice Rossa is mistaken, she will be dealt with...

Sidious could have overpowered Mace at anytime. If Master Yoda, excuse me, if the GRANDMASTER of the Jedi Order could not keep his saber in hand, then Mace would have been no different. A Sith's true power resides in their will, Mace would have been destroyed.


They don't want to spill the beans yet on Lord Plagueis, because there are other plotlines to consider. There can't be any continuity errors with this one. So far potential spoilers have been limited but there are few details of import that have leaked.

 

Yoda didn't have Vapaad boosting his effectiveness against Force Lightning. He also is physically weaker than Mace, so I don't buy that Yoda's losing his saber means Mace would have, Vapaad would have been enough to keep it flowing back at Palpatine(given that it's stated to create a 'super-conducting loop', who would have died had Mace's swing not been intercepted by Anakin.

 

Sidious did not need Anakin to intervene, he wanted him to.

"You must choose!"

Vapaad is indeed a loop, and requires great focus. How would Windu defend the lightning at his face and a Couch? a Chair? a Statue? a desk mixed with shards of shattered glass flying at his back, and side at the same time?

You grossly underestimate the power that Sidious held merely upon a whim of thought. Even without Skywalker ever showing up, Vapaad is no defense for an all out barrage. Windu's exceptional saber skills and unique state of being were no match for Sidious and the Darkside of the Force. The Sith exposed Mace's flaw; his attachment to the Republic, and forced him to act above the law. Mace was dead the minute he decided to go and arrest Palpatine, Mace was a goner the second he decided to execute the Chancellor.

 

Who says Sidious was capable of this? He'd have to divide his focus, which could have served as an opening for Windu.

They certainly seemed to be in the film, given that he's the only character to ever defeat Palpatine.

Yes, but it was the right decision, as while it caused his death, it didn't have to.

He was, but only because of Sidious's ability to manipulate Skywalker/the fact that Skywalker was blinded by his selfishness. Lucas himself has said Windu overpowered the Emperor. He wasn't any where near as weak as he was acting, but he had lost.

 

Mace disarmed him of his lightsaber, Sidious never needed it in the first place. And if the "significantly reduced midichlorianated ESB version of Darth Vader" can pull it off, then I laugh at the suggestion that Sidious could not. Mace would been overwhelmed, plain and simple. While Mace excelled with the blade, he was no match for Sidious when it came to the Force.

 

Vader never used lightining + throwing, he simply threw one object at a time, which Sidious showed he could do as well. If it was as simple as you seem to think, Sidious would have simply Lightninged Yoda and thrown things at him while he was absorbing it. I'm also not sure he can't do it, just that it would take him concentration, and that this moment of divided focus would be enough for Mace to go for the kill.

There's also the inherant problem in your portraying OT Vader as weak, yet still believing a Sith's true power resides in their will, as if that was the case it shouldn't matter that Vader has less Who's in his Whoville than he used to.

Mace it's worth noting knew was a level 9, just like Yoda, Sidious, and Vaderkin. He's also no slouch with the Force(especially if we bring in the EU) examples proving this include

(noteworthy because this means Mace's defining quality would be his power like Yoda's is his wisdom.)

 

There's also the inherant problem in your portraying OT Vader as weak, yet still believing a Sith's true power resides in their will, as if that was the case it shouldn't matter that Vader has less Who's in his Whoville than he used to.

---

There is no conflict...

and I beg to differ, Vader threw [i]MULTIPLE[/i] objects simultaneously at Luke. Pop in the dvd, if memory serves me, he gets cracked on one side while he's swinging at something while facing the other way.

And my point about the now diminished by midichlorian rubbish Vader was that even in his weakened state his will was greater than Luke's.

Sidious' will was bent towards destroying Mace, and he was not to be denied. Which makes it laughable to me to suggest that an [i]undiminished [/i] Sidious could not. I didn't factor midichlorians, Lucas did. So if [i]"Mr 80% of the Emperor"[/i] could execute the move, then 100% of the Emperor surely would be a whole lot worse.[face_tongue]




[quote=Master_Starwalker ]Anakin in Episode 2 posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Obi-Wan is a great mentor, as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(noteworthy because this means Mace's defining quality would be his power like Yoda's is his wisdom.) [/quote]

Yeah, and that also came from the same person who said that Jedi were encouraged to love. In AOTC and ROTS Anakin is full of hot air in my book.

Wiki has plenty to offer in way of Sidious' strengths, shall we?

[u]Considered by many to have been the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith in the history of the Sith Order[/u]?something he himself also firmly believed?he was the only Sith Lord in a thousand years to achieve the ultimate goal of the Sith: to eradicate the Jedi Order and bring the Galaxy under the rule of the Sith.

But his greatest strength, what made him the appropriate Sith to exact their order's revenge, [u]was not his supreme and deadly skills [/u] in the dark side of the Force, but rather the way he could manipulate beings all across the Galaxy?good or evil.


Mace never stood a chance, at least Sidious saved all of his smarmy cackles for Yoda.

 

There is no conflict...

and I beg to differ, Vader threw MULTIPLE objects simultaneously at Luke. Pop in the dvd, if memory serves me, he gets cracked on one side while he's swinging at something while facing the other way.

That's actually entirely possible, as that jogged my memory and I think I remember the same.(It also shows I need to watch ESB again soon anyway. )

And my point about the now diminished by midichlorian rubbish Vader was that even in his weakened state his will was greater than Luke's.

Heck, I'm a Luke fan and I'd agree that his will was. Luke had barely any traning and was still somewhat afraid of Vader.

Sidious' will was bent towards destroying Mace, and he was not to be denied. Which makes it laughable to me to suggest that an undiminished Sidious could not. I didn't factor midichlorians, Lucas did. So if "Mr 80% of the Emperor" could execute the move, then 100% of the Emperor surely would be a whole lot worse. tongue

Yes, but I don't think Vader could defeat Mace, whereas Sidious, under different circumstances, could.

Yeah, and that also came from the same person who said that Jedi were encouraged to love. In AOTC and ROTS Anakin is full of hot air in my book.

He is, but given that the databank backs up Mace being on par with Yoda, I think he's right on this one.

Wiki has plenty to offer in way of Sidious' strengths, shall we?

Considered by many to have been the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith in the history of the Sith Order?something he himself also firmly believed?he was the only Sith Lord in a thousand years to achieve the ultimate goal of the Sith: to eradicate the Jedi Order and bring the Galaxy under the rule of the Sith.

Which I agree with. He was the most powerful Sith Lord ever.

But his greatest strength, what made him the appropriate Sith to exact their order's revenge, was not his supreme and deadly skills in the dark side of the Force, but rather the way he could manipulate beings all across the Galaxy?good or evil.

I'd agree with this as well. Mace, however I think saw through Sidious's deception finally during the duel. His manipulative skills are made blatently clear given how easily be tricks all of the 0ld Jedi, Vader, and the Galaxy at large. Mace was right, Sidious was too dangerous to be left alive, and a quick thrust of the saber through Sidious's forehead, instead of the long strike, would have ended it quickly. That and, I see that as backing up my position more than yours given that it's shown by the fact that even when Sidious loses, he can pull victory out of the jaws of defeat.

Mace never stood a chance, at least Sidious saved all of his smarmy cackles for Yoda.

True, but against Yoda he didn't have to care about someone else's perception, so he could make his enjoyment of the fight far more visible.

 

Palpatine is overpowered when he loses the Lightsaber duel. He is not overpowered with the Sith Lightning, he chooses to lose this part of the fight. You also miss where Lucas says that when Anakin arrives, he takes the opportunity to pretend to lose his power and then he says that Palpatine overexaggerates that he is weak. He was never weak. He was faking him out and Mace knew it. But Anakin didn't. Not until afterwards.

 

Sideous is overpowered in the lightsaber duel, correct. But who says that he let himself lose the lightning duel? Lucas hasn't stated that as fact. He quit the lightning duel, yes, but he couldn't penetrate Mace's defenses. I agree that Sideous was never weak, but he still couldn't overpower Mace. That is just speculation from your part, and nothing more

 

^^^

Exactly. He needed Anakin to step in and save him. The bit he was exaggerating was in making out that he had lost his powers. So that when Anakin steps in hsi bounces back to life and kills Mace.

Thats why Anakin is so shocked. He didnt think Sidious would kill Mace (as Lucas has said), hence the line "what have I done?!".

Sidious never had unlimited power. He just believed that he did. If he truly had such a powers then he wouldn't have ended up being dumped down a reactor shaft by a cripple.

The dark side is the more powerful side though, at least physically. But it can be defeated through the compassion and spiritual power of the light side.

Thats the ironic thing for me. Sidious explains that the dark side is the right way to use the force as you have no limitations, whilst the Jedi have a narrow minded view. Yet, come the end, its through being a Jedi that you truly have no limitations and are able to achieve immortality.

 

Hi everybody from a newbie.

I agree with Sinester and SithStarSlayer. The purpose of Sidious first sith lightning shots was destroy Mace, that is clear, but once the Jedi Master blocked it and with Anakin there, he changed tactics. We can watch how Sidious disarmed Yoda with his lightning in the Senate, aiming it to Yoda´s lightsaber hilt. Sidious only has to shot straight to Mace´s hilt to got him defenceless but with Anakin there, he can kill two birds with one stone if he fake being weak. He exposed himself to a great danger with the intention of creating a critical situation in which Anakin must choose his side.

Back to topic, I see two meanings for Sidious unlimited power: 1) As many have said, to show Mace (and the Jedi by extension) which is the most powerful side of the Force. He thinks the dark side is more powerful what can be true at short term, because under my point of view the Jedi discover the real way to the unlimited power. 2) To show him (and the audience) that he was faking.

 

Good post!

Sideous' unlimited powers were in his mind, or rather he saw them through Anakin. He knew Anakin would become more powerful than he - so how could he possibly have ultimate powers?

The dark-side is stronger for certain things, but I believe Yoda was speaking the truth when he argued that it was faster, more seductive - but with training, a Jedi can become equally powerful, as evidenced by Yoda and Mace.

One of Sideous' greatest flaws was that he believed he had everything worked out, and that his way was the only way. If you are that dogmatic, you will find yourself losing eventually. There isn't one right and one wrong. There are many shades of rights and wrongs. He, as is the nature of the Sith, ignored the lightside for its compassion and their strengths, which, was ultimately his downfall.

If Sideous proclaims that the Sith no longer need lightsabers to fight Jedi, I find it most ironic that it was through the use of compassion and love that he was destroyed - there was no use of any force powers involved at all.

 

I'm not saying that having unlimited power wasn't in his head. I'm just saying that he could beaten Mace eventually, he just choose not to because he wanted the boy to turn.

 

People with unlimited power can die. Vader had surprise on his side. Palpatine was arrogant to believe that he could torture/kill Luke without Vader doing anything. Unlimited power means nothing if you don't handle it correctly. Darth Plagueis is the defination of unlimited power and he was killed, by a similar "sucker punch" death as Palpatine had.

And why do you go out of your way to insult Darth Vader?

 

Exactly. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Sidious was pretending to be weaker against Mace than he actually was. He was feigning weakness to force Anakin to defend him, thus sealing his destiny. If Sidious had fought Mace honestly, using the sum total of his physical abilities, Anakin never would have been forced to choose. Notice I said the sum total of his PHYSICAL abilities. Sidious's greatest power had little to do with lightning or lightsaber dueling skills. Sidious's greatest ability was the manipulation of Anakin Skywalker. Anakin was the greatest weapon in Sidious's arsenal, the one weapon Mace simply was too blind to see coming. Sidious knew how to get Anakin where he wanted him to be, thus knew exactly how to use him. Basically, Mace may have physically been beating him, but only because Sidious allowed it to happen, to get Mace into a position where Sidious could unleash his secret weapon.

There is more to a fight than simple physical skills, and the toughest fighter doesn't always
win. The winner is usually the smartest fighter, not the toughest. From a purely physical force power standpoint, perhaps Mace Windu was Sidious's superior, however there was far more going on in that fight than Mace comprehended. Like the entire Clone War, it was all orchestrated by Sidious to achieve his own goals. I am amazed that some people simply can't grasp the parallels. He staged an entire galactic war, why would he then not be able to stage a simple fight? Everything about Sidious/Palpatine indicates that he doesn't venture into things that he can't predict the outcome to. I submit that he revealed himself to Anakin, KNOWING Anakin would go to the Jedi Council, knowing that the Jedi would send a group to arrest him, KNOWING Anakin would show up to save him. Palpatine rarely takes chances, preferring instead to rig situations in his favor. This is no different. He wasn't taking a huge chance by revealing himself to Anakin, he knew all along what the outcome of it would be, and he used that outcome to serve his purposes. He is a masterful schemer!

Simply put, Mace, like the rest of the entire galaxy, got played.

 

I'm not arguing that Sidious wasn't feigning either. I just don't think he was feigning at all until he hit the ground, and by that time I think Mace(who's said to be on par with Yoda who is on par with Sidious) could win, even though Palpatine was by no means weak or helpless. I also think Mace saw through Palpatine's game and that's why he said "He's too dangerous to be left alive." and went for the kill, whereas Anakin was of course played completely by Palpatine and blinded by his selfishness.


It makes the scene stronger if Mace had defeated Palpatine, but Palpatine made even a loss serve his purposes.

 

Ok, Palpatine underestimated the power of Vaapad and Mace disarmed him. So what? Palpatine loses one weapon and takes out another. Palpatine wasn't going to let any Jedi take what he had worked so hard for. I mean props to Mace, he disarmed Palpatine in lightsaber combat. Great. But in a life or death match Palpatine is not going to lose.

 

He almost lost against Yoda, and the only reason he won that was because the pod he flew towards was one that he could grab whereas Yoda's had nothing for him to hold on to. He's not leaps and bounds above Mace. I think he should be, but all of the evidence points to Mace = Sidious = Yoda.

Palpatine's lightning also seemed fairly useless against a Mace who is blocking it given Vapaad's super conducting loop. He could likely block a Force Push from Sidious, and had him at the tip of his saber. All Mace had to do was quickly jab his saber forward and Sidious would have been dead.

You're right that he hadn't won yet, but he had a significant upper hand had Anakin never arrived.

 

i do not believe that he had unlimited power. I believe that he was referring to what the dark side could provide. I also thought that the statement was made to Mace, but more importantly to Anakin. Sidious knew that anakin wanted more power, but didn't really want to join Sidious, Anakin wanted to kill him before he reported that Sids was a sith lord. His comment of "unlimited power" was sids telling anakin that the darkside can provide the extra power that anakin needs to covince anakin to join him.