Vader/Anakin Ghost in Jedi

I think it makes sense to have Hayden in Anakin's place at the end of ROTJ. However, Lucas should also change Obi-Wan's and Yoda to a younger version of themselves. But, I think it would also have been wise to change Vader's reveal scene to include Anakin's head. Makeup could have made him look older, in his 40's. Shaw was 72 years old when he did the Vader reveal scene. That throws the timeline way out of whack.

What I really want to know is why they did not use David Prowse in the reveal. Prowse is not a pretty man, and it would not have taken much to make him Vader. It would have been the least Lucas could have done for the man that created the neatest (and nastiest) movie villan of all time.

 

Only a few days till the novel comes out an we'll discover if Vader is just a name or "completely different person."

 

"However, Lucas should also change Obi-Wan's and Yoda to a younger version of themselves."

No, because the whole reason Anakin looks young is because that is how he looks when he "dies as Anakin Skywalker." Apparently when a Jedi dies he reappears in the form that he was when he was last alive.

 

He doesn't die.

 

I just happened to watch ROTJ today while home sick. When I saw the ghost of Vader/Anakin at the end I got a little choked up, I think this works just fine. The fact that it's Hayden there really connects you to the saga as a whole. Before it was just some old guy and it might have still seemed like that after the PT. But seeing a PT Anakin really takes you back and you see the saga play out quickly in your head. You see the past, the beginning...then you see everthing that happens in the OT. You really connect with it at an emotional and mental level. I say it makes sense and it wraps up the saga beautifully.

 

"However, Lucas should also change Obi-Wan's and Yoda to a younger version of themselves."

No, because the whole reason Anakin looks young is because that is how he looks when he "dies as Anakin Skywalker." Apparently when a Jedi dies he reappears in the form that he was when he was last alive."

Exactly. It was only a freak thing that happened with Anakin . The old forms of OB1 and Yoda WERE they're true forms. Hayden is the way to go.

 

If you want to be literal, having Anakin's ghost resemble young Anakin is the only "clean" way to show the ghost. Allow me to explain, because that sentence pretty much sucked.

"If the defenders of Sebastian Shaw's ghost are asserting that every Jedi ghost should appear as he/she looks at the time of death, then old Anakin's ghost should be a complete quadriplegic, white as chalk, scarred nearly beyond recognition, but hey, he'd still be smilin' big, saying "That's (wheezing inhalation) ..my boy!"

If George wants to be as literal as he can (as funny as that sounds), he has to show the audience a more pleasant picture of Anakin, as he was before he "ceased to be Anakin Skywalker..." instead of conjecturing his old body's appearance, because that old body never existed.

Does that make sense at all? Hope so. That's the only way I can justify the change. And the change works well, IMO, anyway."

Yes. Makes perfect since. Excellent post. But you can't change people's opinions. Either they agree with Lucas's logic or they don't.

 

Yeah, I have to concede the point on letting ObiWan and Yoda's ghost appear as they were when they died. I guess I was trying to infuse religious logic into the argument, you know that "i'll be young again" thing you hear about when you go to heaven and all. I also forgot that a Jedi ghost is a very rare thing anyway. Obi-Wan tells Luke at the beginning of "Heir to the Empire" that he has stayed with Luke to long and that he should have become one with the Force long before then.

 

No, because the whole reason Anakin looks young is because that is how he looks when he "dies as Anakin Skywalker."

This is what Lucas himself has said.
However, that completely changes the end of the movie. Now, by the virtue of the "dead" Anakin being Hayden, we are clearly NOT to assume that Vader repented at the end. Since the Anakin we saw on the DSII isn't the same as the ghost, it can only mean that it was Darth Vader that died in Lukes arms. There was no redemption, the killing of the Emperor was a final suicidal act of hate and not the redeming love for his son that it was before.

For good or bad, it changed the movie completely.

 

It's because that's how Anakin remembered himself and how he wanted to look. The Force Ghost is a projection of your identity into a visible form. To Anakin, his identity was that of a handsome, not scarred, all-limbed, 23-year-old man, and that's how he wanted Luke to remember him by, not by the man he had become. He wanted Luke to remember him for the way he was, and how, in the end, he turned out to be on the inside.

 

Bravo, Ogmios. It is how he wanted to present himself to Luke - which is why Obi and Yoda also chose the image of themselves as Luke knew them.

 

I just find Sebastian Shaw's smile at the end of the original ROTJ to be emotionally wrecking. Good lord, something about that moment where he appears and smiles takes me out of action for a good ten minutes. I admittedly have yet to see the Hayden version, but I seriously doubt he captured that exact same spirit from the pictures I've seen.

 

The smile isn't quite as "bam", but that's allegedly because Lucas told Hayden that it was just a camera test, and that he didn't know that he was being filmed for the Force Ghost. If that's the case, maybe they'll go back and do it again.

 

When I first saw it, it looked odd having Hayden in replace of Shaw. Then I thought maybe it wouldn't look so bad after Episode III was out. I think had there been Anakin(Christensen) in darker Jedi attire, then it would have sank in a little more.

 

"However, Lucas should also change Obi-Wan's and Yoda to a younger version of themselves."

no, because those actors were actually IN the movie

 

I liked Shaw in ROTJ, and when I saw the DVD I FLIPPED out, because I have the VHS versions too..and was sooo confused!

This was before I came to this forum and read all the ROTS spoilers though....LOL

anyway, I don't mind the switch..makes more sense and all those who miss Shaw...go get the VHS...lol

 

Why would they have Anakin wear darker robes? The reason why Anakin's robes in Attack of the Clones are dark and why they're even darker in Revenge of the Sith is to represent the growing darkness within the character. That's also why Luke wears white in A New Hope, grey in The Empire Strikes Back, and black in Return of the Jedi. Anakin's light robes represent that the darkness has been purged from his being, and he is whole and at peace.

 

I think that Hayden playing the ghost of Anakin Skywalker is a good thing. Shaw playing Anakin shows Luke what he could have been if he didn't turn into Vader. But Hayden acting it shows Luke who Anakin was before he turned evil. Then, Luke can remember his father (even if it's only a ghost) as something more than the terrible Darth Vader and feeble Anakin Skywalker, Luke can see the good man he used to be and who Padme fell in love with.

 

I liked it better when Luke got to see the man who DEFEATED the dark side, not the man who was seduced by it.

I just find Sebastian Shaw's smile at the end of the original ROTJ to be emotionally wrecking

Yes, yes, yes. The execution of this shot is horrendous. Not only does have a creepy ass look on his face, but it seems hes not even looking in the same direction as Yoda and Ben.

 

Why would they have Anakin wear darker robes? The reason why Anakin's robes in Attack of the Clones are dark and why they're even darker in Revenge of the Sith is to represent the growing darkness within the character. That's also why Luke wears white in A New Hope, grey in The Empire Strikes Back, and black in Return of the Jedi. Anakin's light robes represent that the darkness has been purged from his being, and he is whole and at peace.

Thats the only thing that bothers me about the whole change. I believe Anakin should be wearing the clothes hes wearing in episode 3. Shouldnt matter that they are dark, he still did lots of good things whilst wearing those clothes. I mean Luke is in all black in Jedi and he doesnt turn to the darkside, wouldnt matter what colour clothes he was wearing. I like the point above that hes wearing light robes to show that he is at peace, but i still believe he should be in his normal clothes, makes more sense.
Any thoughts?

 

But remember, the ghost is Anakin's view of himself. He shows himself in lighter robes, for the obvious reason of showing the peace and lightness within him, but also for the aesthetic. It would look a little odd for both Obi-Wan and Yoda to be wearing light robes but not Anakin.

Solo, don't you think you're being a little quick to judge Anakin in Revenge of the Sith? How do you know that that image of him will be associated with an evil Anakin. You forget that that Anakin is a good man for a good part of Revenge of the Sith, and most people will probably still cling to the hope that there is some good left in that man after he falls. Anakin Skywalker was a hero of the Clone Wars, a good husband, and a loving friend. Most people will remember that when they see him. The fact that he has all of his limbs, is scarless, and is in light robes will emphasize this.

But, wrap your minds around this. How do we know that George wants every single person to buy the redemption of Anakin Skywalker? Don't you think that he wants us to have our own opinions on the story he's telling? Certainly there would be people within the GFFA who wouldn't forgive Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader or see him redeemed in their eyes, so why should it be any different in our galaxy? When seeing a young Anakin Skywalker, some will see the good. Others will remember the man who became Vader, the selfish man, obsessed with power. Maybe that's the intention; for us to have our own opinion?

 

Well, that's how a tragic hero works; the flaw. I think the mistake that most of us made - me included - was that Anakin was the model Jedi before his fall. But, now that I think about it, the model Jedi wouldn't have fallen. In order for Anakin to fall, he would have to have flaws. Anakin is far from perfect. However, I think you should wait until Episode III to make this judgment on Anakin. Maybe your mind will change. Then again, maybe it won't. Like I said, maybe that's the intention.

 

However, one could say that a model Jedi understands their limited, in this case, human abilities-even in the Force and learns from their own mistakes. Anakin...took a long time to realize this.

Although, if as Anakin says "Jedi(s) are encouraged to love" he shows how compassion can save the Galaxy and bring balance to the Force.

With most stories, it works better thematically to exemplify this/these points dramatically rather than to just witness a character who's got it down already i.e. Obi-Wan.

He is an important character; however, one the audience compares to the flawed character (Anakin) to understand how Anakin should be.

It's all good .

Ciou-See the Sig