Comics Vader: Dark Visions

Yeah, even if the point was to introduce a "Harley Quinn" character to Star Wars, her depiction in the cartoons involved input from Arleen Sorkin (her voice actress), and her very first issue in the comics has her earn a bit of Batman's respect and sets up the idea of her eventually leaving the Joker and breaking the cycle of abuse. It establishes her as human. This comic misses everything we loved about that character in trying to do an homage to it.

You mean Margaret Mary Ray, who had a name, who lost two brothers to the same mental illness (schizophrenia) that eventually claimed her life, who wasn't actually a bug-eyed cartoon character but a flesh-and-blood human being?

Real representation means acknowledging the humanity of the people you write about. No one asked for this woman to be portrayed as good and powerful. Read the fan-fic "fix" that Katie wrote; it's literally two pages long, it doesn't erase the characters delusions, it doesn't make her a good person, but what it makes her is a person, not the cheap shot at fan-fiction writers that, intentional or not, this story comes across as.

 

I may be male but why do you assume I am not a member of a minority that just like females in some parts is oppressed and discriminated? As you yourself say, be it gender, race or else, the reason for discriminations may vary but the result is the same. So a male that knows and felt this can easily write about a similiar situation, like say someone male discriminated for race or else may know how to write about a woman in a similiar situation based on gender discrimination.

The issue i pointed out is not discrimination itself though but why do people feel the need to take a fictional story and force their own feelings and discrimination upon it? Or in general, why focus on the discrimination and bad parts, when you could constructively build a better future instead of always harking back to the hurtful feelings and keep them with you and see reflections of them in fictional media? Why not move on and create the future you want instead on reliving the past by interpreting everything according to that set of feelings one has? Why interpret media at all based on ones own past, instead of taking it for what it is, a piece of art that much can be read into but does not have to be?

 

First, thx. I am far from enlightened but I like that compliment. Regarding twitter and reddit, those are not communities I frequent. I find twitters lack of words disturbing, given I tend to more lengthy texts myself. As for reddit, its commentary structure confuses me much like twitters. I prefer straight chronological forum topics like here. So yes, for now my wisdom is spread here only, if you so will.

But fear not, if anybody would cheer the comic for the same reasons others loath it as you say, that I equally would not like and tell them as much. Though that I have not encountered much here yet, at least not to the extent it seems to be on twitter.

 

That's not what I said at all, nor do I agree with it. Also, the writer of Dark Visions 3, in addition to being a man, is also white and presumably straight (he has a wife and hasn't said anything to the contrary), so that doesn't work anyway.

 

guess I missed a memo, what source made Tarkin gay?

 

There's this pretty popular book, you might've heard of it, they call it the Bible. There's a story in there about a man who builds his house on sand. It sinks, but he tries again, and it sinks again, so he tries again, and it sinks again.

We can't build a better anything if we ignore the problems that will sink whatever we try to build.

 

To be honest, I do not like to transfer reality into a fairy tale or vice versa. But in this case it happened by itself. I don't remember any other comic that caused so many negative feelings. I'm not sure WHAT the author really meant... Maybe for him it's funny, but for many it was not funny, more insulting. The main character is a strange to madness Vader's fan, who was not even given a name for the whole story. Is that funny? It's more like an offensive comparison - as if it's a message that a normal woman can't fall in love with Lord Vader. That's how it feels.

Aphra is a slightly different character. Yes, she was also a fan of Lord Vader, but that is just a fan. She did not pursue him in all ways, did not collect "pieces" of milord, did not spin nonsense about eternal love right in his face, after bathing in slops. Feel the difference? Do not compare these characters. I don't like Aphra myself, and not everyone likes her. Aphra - a character in some degree interesting and fun, yes, she deserved her own series of comics, but at the same time this character is a conglomeration of negative qualities, she's a liar, a thief, autnority, in general she is not a nice person. But for all her qualities, Aphra is incomparable to this nameless crazy fan...

The relationship between Tarkin and Daala is quite normal, in my opinion. What's so terrible about it? She was his lover, he had paved the way for her to the military, though she remained little known. And Corran Horn's "love" for the Selonian beauty, he-he, as I remember, was just humor. This! There was really the humor, and the comic about a nameless fan was a nightmare, not humor...

I speak for Russia. We are too negative about this comic, and perceived the main character as an insult to all Lord Vader's female fans. Only the lazy one hasn't mocked this comic yet...

 

Presumably... see what you did there? You stopped interpreting the story on its own and started to look for the authors background to find more support for your reading and theory about it. One can have a wife and be bi or openminded and there are way more constellations than the presumed one. Even if not as common as others, I'd not jump to conclusions based on these presumptions. Heck some people took Enfys Nest actress Erin Kellyman for a white redhead girl instead of the rather pale black girl she is! You point at gender, race and marital status, reduce a person to these indicators and judge him for that. You repeat the very same behavior that lead to the discrimination of women in the first place! Even if he is white, straight and whatever... maybe his best friend is not, or his family member and he knows firsthand thus a lot more about this stuff than others. Does it matter if he does or is or not? He wrote a story and we should discuss the story, not him or his background. It is not an exclusive right to some people only to write about certain topics. Sure some are more qualified maybe, but in fiction everyone can contribute and tell a story. The interpretation mostly is up to the reader (see how different TLJ had been taken and interpreted!).

Great example there thx!

I do not advocate ignoring the problems, neither do I reinforcing them by retreading them. To use your Bible analogy, if one builds a house on sand and it sinks, one should look for better ground to build it on instead of being stubborn. Or find a better building method that fits building on sand (like a stilthouse maybe). Both works, repeating the same that failed before does not though, and that is what many people are doing. They try to get their point across or improve the situation but use the wrong tools over and over not seeing how it makes things worse even maybe.

I am all for building that house for real. I know its no easy task. So lets tackle these problems where they are!

If you allow me another half humorous, half serious comparison as addition to your example: you might hate sand like Anakin does, but true equality means Anakin and sand have to get along. Not removing sand so Anakin is happy, nor removing Anakin so sand is happy.

 

That's what we were doing when talking about the comic, but you said not to.

Hundreds of women fans are talking about this on Twitter and various message boards. If Marvel's Star Wars team still had a woman on staff, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation (they used to, when Heather Antos was editing there, and as noted several times already the "Vader fan-girl" created THEN managed to be an actual character). But they don't, which is the actual real world problem that results in a limited and limiting portrayal that, again, lots and lots of women reasonably said "Ouch" at, only to be met with responses like yours.

 

You're the one that brought up the author's background by implying that even though he was a man he was somehow drawing from his experience as a downtrodden minority to write about the character in the comic. You're not actually responding to anything substantively and just trying to look for some kind of "gotcha" moment by parsing the semantics of what I'm saying. Your argument that women's voices don't need to be heard when writing female characters is completely invalid, period.

 

thx for your detailed reply!

Regarding Tarkin and Daala, he was married, she practially a kid to him age difference and all. Daala used her looks to rise to rank by flirting with a superior officer whereas Tarkin kept her aside his wife and daughter as affair. That is normal? Ahem...

Sure Corran was just meant as humor, but some were offended by the entire interspecies relationship debates of the late Legends EU, especially if species resembled real world animals!

Aphra is incomparable? She stuffs living creatures and turns them into bombs. Many characters in Star Wars resemble monsters, terrorists and the like and people do not complain. Just look at Evazan or Rebels in Rogue One (especially Saw Guererras bunch). How is a nameless girl with some issues any different to all these? Is it worse to be a Stalker or a terrorist or any other "bad real world thing put into fiction"? Why is this one worse than others? Not saying stalking is not bad, on the contrary it is. But people treat it as way worse than other stuff cheered in SW.

Now back to the Death Star Nurse. She was lonely and mistreated by her boss the doctor. Sure she had daydreams and fantasies, everybody does. Getting a look at Vader, nothing bad there. Well taking collectibles from his body is odd, sure, but I think that is only due to her job. Were she in any other profession she'd gotten other collectibles. She is a normal woman. The average girl with dreams and fears. Everyone got some issues and delusions in life.
So that's how it starts. Later it sure got more extreme and showed what happens when these every day issues get out of hand and take control over her normal life. She more and more abandoned her work and life to live in her daydream, interpreted all according to it and thus did not see clearly what was in front of her.
I'd say she is the average girl that turned into a cautionary tale of what could happen. Only the sad end makes it look like she failed. Other villains not Vader might have even let her in or taken her on. See Joker and Harley Quinn which this comic was alluding to heavilly. But this end we got shows Vader is devoted to Padmé only even if it pains him. I did not get the feeling he executed her because she is crazy or anything but because she reminded him of Padmé, someone not afraid of him. Someone who sees deeper than his armor and actions.

Now I'd not see that as attack on anybody, especially not fangirls. It just is a character that is like she is. No generalisation or anything in the story itself. Though, if people interpret it like they seem to do I do worry what image of themselves they do have, that leads them to see comparisons that may or may not be there. I mean, why feel attacked AND claim she is portrayed as crazy if you are not? I'd not say fangirls or shippers or villain-fans are crazy. Why do some thus see themselves as crazy, or in other words fear they are?

 

Womens voices matter, I just claim that a male can write about a female character as well. Generalising all males is not helping the female cause, nor is claiming that only women know and need to tell males. There are many male feminism activists in the world, many supporters. But if women tend to ignore them or not want any help, I do not see how their cause can ever get any equal footing if they shoot their support down. It's like some want to scream at men more than actually being heard or listen to the response they might even like to hear would they listen. Not every male is evil or does not understand.
Discussing problems is valid and needed but just complaining instead of constructive criticism is not helping.

 

Kate literally CONSTRUCTED AN ENTIRE FIX FOR THIS LAZY STORY, why are you lecturing people for not being constructive when it LITERALLY happened already?

 

Just to get this on record: it's not just me who felt Vader looked like a tired Garfield in this issue, right? Like, a demoralised Garfield whose only true love is lasagna and he knows he'll never get it again? Because that's exactly what he looked like to me.

 

Harley only recently actually ended the cycle in Death of the family arc (though that took Mr.J pretending to cut off her face ) and she's still struggling with it in the recent heroes in crisis stuff
. Only the injustice universe version of Harley has straight up ended things with Joker and that took injustice Superman Killing Joker after Joker killed Lois but I get your point .

Of MSE-6 and Men

 

It's just a great comparison! I have, too, request a similar opinion, that here Vader drawn thus tortured and tired, that in his eyes impossible look without tears. Serious... his eyes... I see in them a universal fatigue, he did not even get angry and was not surprised at such an indecent invasion of a woman who bathed in slops. There is a feeling that for Lord Vader it is not the first time, and fangirls often visit his chamber and tell him all sorts of nonsense about eternal love.

 

OK, let's try this.

You mentioned you're a member of an ethnic minority. I am white. Am I qualified to speak for your group just because I understand oppression when it's gender-related? How would it make you feel if I wrote stories about members of your group but never asked any of you to check for stereotypes or problematic portrayals? And most importantly, how would you react to my lecturing your group about what you're doing wrong in your fight for equality?

 

If you had " he has female friends" on your bingo card take a shot now

 

I got a bingo

 

Since I'm a strictly an OHC-only comic reader these days where Marvel is concerned, I've little to actually contribute - much like Coop - but have enjoyed catching up, had wondered what had made this thread go so active.

So it was... Hopeless? Thank you, thank you... I'll be here all week.

I don't think this thread can handle another controversy and Heroes in Crisis is certainly it! (That panel you posted, if you hadn't included the source I would have sworn was by Bendis.)

The overall impression I get from the last 5-6 pages of discussion is this was SW trying to do a Batman: Mad Love style story, but with a tiny fraction of the skill Dini and Timm did for that story. And for that reason, it exploded very fast.

The new material is a strange, strange beast on diversity. From the start it was clear Disney wanted to do better on it, wanted to improve representation and, in quite a few cases they really did. But when it goes wrong and they take a step backwards? They really don't do it by halves!

 

Cole, can you please for the love of god stop double posting?

 

Well, in this case it's less "Disney" than "Marvel"; I get the feeling corporate doesn't pay a lot of attention to Marvel's publishing arm. This kind of thing should sadly be expected under an editor-in-chief who launched his comics career by pretending to be a Japanese writer.

 

I wouldn't have any problem with this issue if they didn't make such a blatant stereotype rather an actual character. This is not an "not all men" problem and I don't think he consciously wrote this in a mean-spirited way but it's still interesting to see the reactions especially considering how romance is such a maligned genre (and shippers in general), how ANY relationship in ANY fandom is compared to a certain book even when the comparison doesn't make any sense.

 

Yeah can we please bring that up whenever possible? When I hear some people talk about Marvel owning the license, specifically when Wendig got fired, they talk about the new SW editor, but outside of superhero fans they don't seem to know how deep the rabbit hole goes. Like this stuff is horrifically the norm for comics, and particularly Marvel as of late.

 

I see the same thing with video games people get hyped up for the trailers but talk to big time gamers who know the industry and they can tell you that people miss all the tells that EA the developers are doing something fishy because the same thing happened to other non Star Wars games a while back.