Vader/Gollum, Bilbo/Obi-Wan, Mustafar/Mt. Doom, the end of the duel

sigh...no offense to anyone...but I have been dreading these lotr and star wars comparisons.....looks like it finally happened! dooohh!

 

sigh...no offense to anyone...but I have been dreading these lotr and star wars comparisons.....looks like it finally happened! dooohh!


Yeah, besides, it's obvious that the lava scenes in LOTR and ROTS...

...are both ripped off from the Genesis planet in STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK.

 

lol
!!!!!!
whoa...that was the last response i planned on getting.
that was funny dude! thanks. errr...you were joking right?

 

errr...you were joking right?

Well, in ROTS, Anakin goes into a frenzy and tries to kill his best friend Obi-Wan...

...while in an episode of classic Trek, Spock goes into a frenzy and tries to kill his best friend Captain Kirk.



(Yes, I was joking.)

 

I don't understand why people "dread" comparisons between these two stories/franchises. They are both great and both pull from the most basic of storytelling essentials.

If you appreciate LOTR (the novel) for what it is, it's amazing.

If you appreciate SW (the films) for what they are, they're amazing.

What's the big deal?

Lucas drew from LOTR some degree of inspiration and creatively made a world that was his.

Peter Jackson drew from SW for inspiration to make movies the way he wanted.

Both LOTR and SW have themes that can be found from The Bible to The Wizzard of Oz.

What's to dread?

 

Blech! Another LOTR and SW connection?

These films are so separate from each other it's not even funny. Tolkien was writing a certain kind of story. Lucas was writing a certain kind of story. The only themes that are similar are the very broad and general ones. Redemption. Good vs. Evil. Evil being surmountingly more powerful than good. Good overcoming not necessarily by the sword but by faith in itself to prevail over evil. Good learning great lessons because it is not capable of just flushing away evil.

Those are the outlying themes. That's where SW and LOTR both begin and end in comparison.

Afterwards, the characters are just not the same. They all have different histories and motivations. Sure, there's a little overlap because there are only so many ways you can do the wise old man bit, the young brash warrior bit, the wise middle-aged warrior bit, and the cranky guy who cracks the jokes but somehow lives through the entire war.

But character-to-character. No. Aragorn doesn't have a Jedi comparitive. Gandalf isn't Yoda. Bilbo is definitely not Obi-Wan. And the Mustafar scene is entirely different context than the Mt. Doom one. On Mt. Doom it's not just Gollum vs. Frodo. Everyone keeps forgetting Sam was there too! That was a three-way struggle. Mustafar is most definitely father vs. son. Gollum is in no way being fathered by the other two.

 

I don't think anyone has said the characters are the same or identical - just that there are similarities (sometime remarkable simlarities) between the character's experiences and motivations.

And Gandalf is compared to Obi-Wan, not Yoda.....

"Mustafar is most definitely father vs. son. Gollum is in no way being fathered by the other two."

Ummm....what? Obi-Wan didn't father Anakin, and Gollum didn't father Sam or Frodo (or the other way around). So that's the same.

Please tell me how Anakin falling to the darkside, becoming evil, redeeming himself and killing the Emperor is NOT SIMILAR to Smeagol fell to the power of the ring, became evil, and saved the world by destroying the ring.

 

errr....similar is even stretching it IMO.

the ring was an "object" of corruption. smeagol didn't turn to evil due to choices he made......or because of people he couldn't let go of. smeagol never deals with the devil. smeagol=anakin? no way. plus he dosen't make a conscious choice to "save" anyone...he falls with the ring into the lava because he still wants it.....thats all.

 

I can go on all day with this until lockage....

You do know that Anakin is Darth Vader, right?

Anakin Skywalker, a good jedi knight, CHOOSES to embrace THE DARK SIDE and became evil - letting the persona of Darth Vader control his destiny ("That name no longer has any meaning for me")

Smeagol, a good hobbit, CHOOSES to embrace THE RING and became evil - letting the persona of Gollum control his destiny.

Darth Vader ultimately defeats the Emperor, thus destroying THE DARK SIDE within him.

Smeagol/Gollum ultimately destroy the RING.

Granted, Smeagol/Gollum never consciously became "good" again, but......

...the storylines are similar.

That's a credit to Lucas - he allowed his fallen good guy to make the decision to become good again and save the day, rather than just fall off a ledge.

 

Wow, you are a brave soul forever_jedi!
Comparing SW to LOTR will really bring out the trolls...

 

There may be something to what you are saying. IMHO, however, Star Wars borrows 90% of its concept from the Dune trilogy more than anything.

Before I am flamed, allow me to state that I don't nessicarily think that is a bad thing. Both stories are top-notch in thier different takes on the same story. Besides, there is no shame in Lucas being inspired by LOTR or Dune, because both are essentially defining epics in Fantasy and Sci-Fi. You can't have a story fall into either genre without being compared to LOTR and Dune. That's just the way it is, like how you can't make sci-fi without being compared to Star Wars and Star Trek.

Violetsaber

 

No offence intended, but I think anyone who doesn't see the similarities between LOTR and SW is in denial.

Heck, there are even comparisons to 'Wizard of Oz' that I think are valid.

It's not an insult to LOTR or SW to recognize the similarities and acknowledge that Lucas was inspired by a lot of what came before him. He still managed to make his story fresh and new, and it's no secret that SW has inspired a lot of what has come after it. Again, that's no insult.

One of the things that struck me as a kid viewing the OT for the first time, was that it always had a familiar ring to it, even in elements like the costuming and props. Seeing them for the first time, I felt like I had seen them before.

Did anyone else get that feeling, watching SW for the first time?

 

don't ask me questions like "do I know anakin is vader" because you are getting frustrated that I see nothing in common with some faggoty hobbits and bad cgi "gollum...gollum.." smeagol and anakins journey.
turning to the darkside of the force and the one ring corrupting people to return to its master......
not the same ballpark...not even the same sport.
dude...there is similarities in everything if you try hard enough.....do some of the themes in the movies match up? yes. but who cares? they are two entirely different worlds...characters..and events.
let me guess....you would be all for an ewoks meet the hobbits adventure right? say what you say man...I'm off to talk star wars.....i say take this crap to the LOTR forums....you may find more willing participants.

 

"Turning to the darkside of the force and the one ring corrupting people to return to its master......
not the same ballpark...not even the same sport."

Lol - thank you for proving my point....

Funny how you're the one saying things like "faggotty" and "crap", yet I'm the frustrated one. I have not disparaged any SW or LOTR character either.

Also, Gollum is not a CGI character - he was created in the 1940's in a book called The Hobbit.

Tell me how these are not similar:

An old, wise wizard named Gandalf convinces a young, innocent hobbit to go on the adventure of a lifetime to save the world, sacrifices himself for the good of the group, only to come back to life to continue to aid the side of good and.......

An old, wise Jedi Knight named Obi-Wan convinces a young, innocent boy to go on the adventure of a lifetime to save the galaxy, sacrifices himself for the good of the group, only to come back to life to continue to aid the side of good....

 

wow. thanks for enlightening me on the origins of gollum. I had no idea. and.....sam and frodo are a little faggoty to me....your point is?
just because I don't agree with you do not assume I am some simpleton who needs you to explain obvious things like anakin is vader...or gandalf sends the hobbits on a journey......to use one of your favorite words from my last post....no crap!
what do you want? an A + in finding similarities? are you a genius now? convienant how you overlooked my comment about acknowledging similarities in the "mythic" themes. though i thought we were talking about anakin being like {laughs} gollum. now were onto the obvious....obi/gandalf.
congratulations. you made the connection. i hear by give you exclusive credit! thanks for expanding my mind brother!

 

Obi-Wan is prohibited as a Jedi from committing out and out murder. He leaves Anakin to die. Anakin was beaten. To then plunge his saber into Anakin would not have been the Jedi way. Frodo only spares Gollum because of the wise words of Gandalf. Left up to his own devices, he would have killed him.

Gandalf chose to let fate make the decision about who should live and die.


Obi-Wan chose to let the force do the same.








Oh and by the way Forever Jedi......




Your parallel between SW and LOTR is on point.





Strange'

 

forever_jedi posted on 3/23/05 5:23pm

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I saw something along the lines of the following posted on another board and thought it was an interesting comparison.

Obi-Wan is dueling to kill Anakin on Mustafar. Spoilers now indicate that he cuts off all of Anakin's limbs and Anakin falls on the sand. But then, strangely, Obi-Wan refuses to finish the job and kill him. Which was what he set out to do in the firdst place, but instead, he leaves. I am sure in the long years on Tatooine, he regretted the fact that he did not finish the job since he helped create the suited Vader, a scourge upon the galaxy. And yet, because Vader was NOT dead, he killed the Emperor when the latter was distracted by lighting up the obstinate Luke.

This has an interesting parallel to "The Hobbit" and LotR. In The Hobbit, Bilbo, out of pity, spares Gollum's life. And this has enormous consequences. At the very end of LotR, Frodo is not powerful enough to do the job and has to have help from Gollum who bites his ring finger and thus ends the Ring. In fact, Galndalf tells Frodo at one point that it's a good thing that "pity stayed Bilbo's hand."

Do others see this parallel? Is this a small homage from GL to Tolkien which made him end the DUEL as he did? [/b]
[hr][/blockquote]

ok, good comparisson, but you may have missed a few things.

Obi-Wan didnt kill off Anakin because that would've been against the Jedi code, in addition to his own pain of killing off a friend and once padawan. he didnt do it out of pity, he just simply kept himself from becoming the monster. in a sense Obi-Wan left Anakin for dead-- let teh Force deal with him so to speak.

sure the consequence of letting a bad seed survive is similar between the 2 sagas, but the motivational factor is different. besides it is fated that Bilbo not kill Gollum, if it was then the Council would've let Bilbo join the Fellowship to begin with.

oh and GL ended the duel according to his own accord methinks. after all, he wrote the original screenplay that started this franchise.

 

Thanks.

Anakin was good.
Smeagol was good.
Anakin became bad and changed his name to Darth Vader.
Smeagol became bad and changed his name to Gollum.
Anakin fell into lava.
Smeagol fell into lava.
Anakin destroyed the most powerful thing in the galaxy: The Emperor.
Smeagol destroyed the most powerful thing in the world: The Ring.

You're right - not one simalarity at all.

Back on topic: I'm not sure if it's against the Jedi code to kill one's enemy. Obi-Wan had no problem slaying Darth Maul and we don't know how he would have ended the duel with Dooku should he have continued. I will assume that at the time of the duel, Obi-Wan will conclude that Anakin is his enemy and he will be justified in killing him. Therefore, if killing Anakin is not against the code, Obi-Wan must pity.

We may be able to tie the Pity of Bilbo and Obi-Wan together.

 

obi1andreasen79 posted on 3/24/05 12:19pm

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I had no idea. and.....sam and frodo are a little faggoty to me....your point is?
[hr][/blockquote]
read the book dude, then maybe we wouldnt have to pull our hair out trying to get you to understand.

Sam and Frodo are not gay. they have a brotherhood, much like Obi-Wan and Anakin, but explained better. 'nuff said.

 

again...obvious. yeah I really thought they were gay.......man I'm glad you guys are here to tell me these things. look....all I'm sayin is elijah and sean came off like some homos in that movie man. too much crying. some of the looks they give each other....ewwwwww!
if my understanding of the lord of the rings novels and movies is in question.,...so be it. not like I go to LOTR forums anyway.....why is this topic in the spoiler forums ? because of mustafar? surely there is a better place for this discussion...no?

 

DarthRoch58 posted on 3/24/05 11:25am

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That's a credit to Lucas - he allowed his fallen good guy to make the decision to become good again and save the day, rather than just fall off a ledge.

[hr][/blockquote]

well if you put it that way then it does look like Gollum went out like a punk, but if you read the book Gollum had it coming; his falling off the ledge is a curse set upon him by both Frodo and Faramir: the minute he claims the Ring for himself it will be his undoing. and that's exactly what happened.

 

The LOTR books were one of Lucas's many, many inspirations while writing SW. So I wouldn't be surprised if he thought of ROTK and the Mordor volcano when he came on the idea of a duel beside/around flowing lava and erupting volcanoes.

Besides which, lava and volcanoes are a strong motif; they represent the closest that we can come to hell -- as it's imagined in stories and so forth -- on Earth.

 

obi1andreasen79 posted on 3/24/05 1:20pm

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again...obvious. yeah I really thought they were gay.......man I'm glad you guys are here to tell me these things. look....all I'm sayin is elijah and sean came off like some homos in that movie man. too much crying. some of the looks they give each other....ewwwwww!
[hr][/blockquote]

dont blame the actors, blame the director and those hack writers [face_frustrated]

[blockquote][link=http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=obi1andreasen79][b]obi1andreasen79[/b][/link] [b]posted on 3/24/05 1:20pm[/b][hr] if my understanding of the lord of the rings novels and movies is in question.,...so be it. not like I go to LOTR forums anyway.....why is this topic in the spoiler forums ? because of mustafar? surely there is a better place for this discussion...no?
[hr][/blockquote]

its a good start to understanding why Obi-Wan left Anakin and how that relates to the greater workings of things. but we have got to keep this SW related or this will be shipped off to another forum.

 

Coincidence? Naw, can't be.

Lava too?

Could it be Lucas borrowing ideas?

Nah.

 

maybe so...yes I have read the novels...several times actually...and I prefer them to the movie. however...star wars did not pop in my mind once....it's a totaly different adventure I go on....
LOTR is hardly a pre-requisite to undertanding the star wars saga IMO. but...to each his own...tomatoe tomawto.....