Vader Plotting to Overthrow Palpatine... Contradictions Solved

Recently I watched the entire saga, for only the second or maybe third time since it has been all over. Now that everything we know is out there, I have begun wanting to understand them as a whole. There are many contradictions in the movies that have been driving me mad, and I have been trolling forums on the internet looking for answers.

The new dialogue in the Vader/Emperor scene in ESB reaffirms that Vader wants to overthrow the Emperor with Luke. He clearly knows Luke is his son from the beginning of the movie, so "How is this possible?" is certainly a lie. And his intentions are made clear at the end of the movie when he spells it out to Luke a la "We can rule the galaxy as father and son."

This subplot has never really captured my full attention before, although in hindsight it is there in the old versions of the film. I see two contradictions in it, however, so I set out to get to the bottom of it. I think I have a good theory that is plausible and leaves no loose ends.

Three Key Scenes -
Vader and the Emperor Transmission
In this scene, whether the old or the new version, it becomes clear that Vader wants Luke to help him overthrow the emperor. For the past twenty years, there was nothing he could do about Palpatine's dominance over him, but now there is. Even without the new "How is this possible" line, I believe that this motive was always there. So, Vader wants Luke so he can replace the Emperor, and the Emperor wants Luke to replace Vader. The Emperor knows of Vader?s plans, and Vader knows he knows. I don?t, however, believe Vader knows of the Emperor?s plans to get rid of him. Good because it is classic Sith behavior, as we now know.

Luke Surrenders on the Forest Moon
All is well and good so far. The inevitable contradiction for me was the "I MUST obey my master" line. If he wanted to oust his master, why does he appear so loyal? But think about it for a minute. He makes it clear he's not going to turn good and run away and join the rebels with Luke. ("It is too late for me, son.") So his only other choice is to take him to the Emperor. He is saying that he must obey his master, that he has no other choice, not proclaiming loyalty. It's a misinterpreted line. So up they go to the throne room...
(The same thing applies in Empire Strikes Back. Vader tries to get Luke in the Carbon Freeze and take him to Palpatine because he no longer has a choice in the matter- his boss knows what he's up to.)

The Finale
The big contradiction in this scene is the infamous lightsaber block. I've seen a number of threads about it on this forum while doing my research recently. The problem: If Vader wants the Emperor dead, why would he stop Luke from taking a saber to him? This is the tougher one. Some plausible solutions:

1)Fear.
Vader is the Emperor's b****. The Emperor saved him after Mustafar, and could kill him at any time. Vader is having cold feet... he's afraid to actually go through with his plans, afraid of his master. (Remember, fear is the path to the dark side.) So he defends his master. Also, he obviously didn't have time to think the whole thing through before the decision, so his fear of his master makes it for him... it's a reflex. I like this solution because it shows Vader as weak and pitiful, a characterization I have always agreed with. Added bonus: it makes Palpatine stop questioning Vader's loyalty- he is caught off guard as he is thrown into the reactor core.

2)To Protect Luke subconsciously. (or if you're bold, consciously)
Vader knows Luke won't easily take on the Emperor. So this may be the fatherly love, the 'good in him' starting to come through, the 'conflict within him' escalating.

3)Vader fears the Emperor would kill Luke if Luke tried to kill him, and a dead Luke can't help Daddy overthrow the Crazy Old Guy.
I don't really like this one because I think Vader knows the Emperor wants to turn Luke too, not kill him. I put it in here because I did think of it, and it's plausible

 

You are very astute to notice the "I must obey my master" line.

I like your assumptions, I liked how you surveyed many possibilties,

I look forward to reading some more of your posts, dude.

 

My theory on the finale is that Luke simply needs to be pushed more to the edge before he takes down the emperor. Luke needn't only be turned, no his anger has to be built up so much that it wouldn't subside easily afterwards. Basically Luke has to remain a Sith after Palpy is dead and Vader had to ensure it somehow.

 

This was very interesting and thought through. I've never thought about the "I must obey my master"-line before.

My theory on why Vader doesn't let Luke kill Palpatine is that Vader knows that Luke will fail. If Vader doesn't defend his master, both he and Luke will pay for it. I believe that Palpy is testing Vader's loyalty as much as he is provoking Luke into violence.

 

Welcome to TF.N!

I've thought about the "how is that possible" and "I must obey my master" lines like that before, but never in such detail. That's a really well thought out assessment, and I think I agree with it completely.

 

Me too. Like Luke and Han, Vader goes through a nice evolution in each of the 3 movies, from being a glorified goon, to a man with big ambitions, to seeing those ambitions fail (his son's rejection on Bespin genuinely surprised him). He became more of a beaten man, like a guy who's resigned himself to his lot in life and is just waiting for the gold watch and the pension. (This harks back to the days when the characters' status as mythical figures was less important than showing how mundanely, relatably, like US they are- a continuation of THX1138 and American Graffiti. Which is why I always felt Han Solo doesn't have to die or do anything grandiose, he just has to let his old friend have his car, and get a grown up job! For Han that IS progression!)

 

Vader pitiful and weak? Not a chance. Lucas was attempting to show us conflict - I kinda thought that was apparent in that Luke said it like 100 times during that last bit they had together. Vader wanted to rule and there was nothing that happened that would make him wish to change his mind. He knew the rule of 2, and he knew that Luke was not coming to the Sith party. His only hope was to fight Luke and defeat (but not kill) him. And in that moment when (and if) Sidious demanded he do so, he'd just rise up and kill Sidious instead and rule with his son. Vader didn't want to be rule as a Jedi with Luke, he wanted them to rule as Sith. So he was all for Luke being turned - however, he was neither all for Luke replacing him nor being killed by Sidious. And as mentioned, Anakin knew darn well what Sidious' plan was - he'd been through it all before with Dooku - Anakin/Vader was many things, but stupid was not one of them.

When Vader told Luke that he had to obey his master and that there was no other way - he was speaking in terms of Luke's turning to the dark side - nothing else. He could have simply let Luke go and faced the consequences. He could have disobeyed Sidious (what else is new) and met up with Luke ahead of time. But he knew better. He could sense Luke's firm resolve. Things had to play out, unfortunately, in the way they did in order for Luke to be turned. Vader didn't make any mega realizations - he already knew the Emperor was a big fat liar; he already knew that Sidious would drop him the moment Luke - or any other stronger force user - came along. He already knew all of those things mentioned. He simply had not allowed his compassion (Anakin) to ever have a fighting chance. But his son being killed before him did the trick - that was not what he wanted at all. If anything, what he realized was that he also didn't want to Rule with Luke only to have the scene play out again between them. That is when Anakin killed Vader - because it was Vader who was the roadblock in the situation. Vader did not allow for compassion or acknowledgement of what Luke might mean to Anakin. Hence the part in the ROTS novel - 'a lone candle can hold the darkness back (Vader's conflict) - but love can ignite the stars' (Anakin's compassion).

It makes no sense that Lucas would feel a need to make Vader feel pitiful and weak, helpless and lost - that would be a prime reason for him to have gotten on with resolving his conflict much sooner. He wasn't recognizing any wrongs at that point. And it also makes entirely no sense in terms of Anakin's character from the beginning or Vader's throughout the series. He simply was not the type to throw in the towel and play poodle. It also renders the final moment too incredulous to believe. One minute the weak, helpless man who gave up and submitted to Sidious and the next this massive avenging returned Jedi guy? I don't buy it.

 

GEORGE LUCAS ON VADER Rolling Stone 2005

"Ultimately, he's just a pathetic guy who's had a very sad life."

"it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

 

Indeed. One of his strongest character traits is his relentlesness and will to fight.

@Lucas statements
Hmm, but what was Lucas intention back then? I'm betting a different one.
Now he is retconning his old films to fit the PT, how disgusting.

 

For all we know, unless there is a source with him saying something, that may very well have been his intention back then. However, it's still a good question to ask, considering we know that he now refers to it as "The Tragedy of Darth Vader".

 

Maybe, but I doubt it.
He needed a badass archenemy for Luke to defeat, so he sort of needed a cunning powerful and domineering villain. Otherwise were would be the epic struggle?

But now that view doesn't fit as well with the PT and to soothe anyone who points the huge character differences between PT Anakin and OT Vader he sought an in-universe explanation. Also he wants to make Vader more human, easier to relate. And found it in painting Vader as a whiney slave not even couragous enough to commit suicide pathetic crybaby.

At least that's how I interpret the whole thing. A change of objectives that caused a portrayal-change of Vader's character (which doesn't make much sense but anyway...).

 

Good thread ... hope it don't devolve into the "Vader was crybaby/PT changed OT" stuff.

Edit: I wanna hear more Palps/Vader "what they're angling for" talk.

 

I don't see how that changes a thing I said. He was pathetic and he did have a sad life. He was also Sidious' flunky. But that has nothing to do with weakness. Just ask all those dude's he force choked - or better yet, ask Han.

 

metalbikini: I'm from the "That redemption story was a sentimentalist crock of @#$%!" school--one boasting such malcontents as David Brin and John Byrne--but kudos for the best interpretation I've heard yet.

That's not to say I think any better of the story's execution...but good job.

 

The reason he doesn't just abandon the Emperor to side with Luke at that point is because he wants the ultimate power still.

Until he's ready to destroy Palpatine, he has to do his bidding.

All along Anakin's plan was to side with Palpatine long enough to learn his powers, then he was going to kill him and take his place as supreme ruler.

The big change in Vader's heart at the very end was he abandoned his greed for power to do the right thing.

 

Admittedly, I glazed over a paragraph or two in the OP, but I don't think that there was any definitive cause for Vader not letting Luke simply kill the Emperor (or at least not an explanation that also explained the contradiction that this had with ESB).

My explanation is probably more of a retcon rationalization: I tell myself that the reason Vader couldn't allow Luke to kill the Emperor (despite the fact that he'd apparently been plotting for this regicide all throughout ESB) was because his allegiance to the Emperor was just one more thing that, when push came to shove, he simply "couldn't let go of".

Vader told himself that he wanted to oust Sidious and "rule the galaxy as father and son!" just as he told himself, way back when he was a boy on Tattooine, that he wanted to go off and become a Jedi. But when the time came to make the change real, he couldn't follow through on it. As a boy, he needed his mother to push him along and as a man he simply didn't have the fortitude. Anakin/Vader can't "embrace the new".

So, when Vader finally does kill the Emperor, he's at last overcoming his single greatest flaw: greedy attachment to the past.

 

Hey, thanks to all who replied... I think that clearly there are many ways to look at all of this. It is George Lucas' gift and curse to his fans I suppose. One part I didn't really think of until reading this was that Anakin did want to learn Palpatine's power and immediately kill him all along. It's a very interesting debate.

"One more thing he couldn't let go of..." basically another testament to his weakness.

that is something I never really thought of. A whole other element. I may slightly edit my original post to include some of the things discussed above.

 

"I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him."

"With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy."

 

"I must obey my master ..."
<puts head down in dejected manner>


Hence, THE CONTRADICTION as eloquently summed up by Metalbikini.

 

Vader wants to overthrow the Emperor, but after failing to turn Luke in ESB he realizes he has lost his one chance. However, the other piece of the puzzle comes from Dark Lord. Anakin wanted to rule the galaxy with Padme, rule-of-two be damned. Padme died and Anakin nearly burned to death on Mustafar....so he resigns himself to serving Palpatine. This is clearly not something he wanted.

At the end of Dark Lord Anakin has nothing left for himself other than to find an apprentice and overthrow Palpatine. However once he finds out about Luke, what better way is there for him to fulfill this and rectify the past than to rule the galaxy with his son? This is why Vader is so adamant about turning Luke to the dark side. He believed it was his own destiny to turn to the dark side and rule the galaxy, and he also believes this is the same for Luke.

Now, turning one more page....Vader has failed to turn Luke in ESB. Now he's on Plan C. Vader plans to fight Luke and enrage him to the point where he would be killed by his own son. Luke would turn to the dark side and become Palpatine's apprentice. Luke would not have been limited by injuries like Vader had. Luke would have the chance to rule the galaxy that Anakin did not.

At the end of it all however, Anakin realizes he's still a Jedi at heart. He saves Luke, turns back to the light side, and decides that Luke had been right all along.

 

Great, great post!!! This is the kind of insight that demonstrates why this story will grow even more into timeless epic classics over-time, they have such depth of themes and intrigue.

I agree with your rationale for Vader blocking Luke's lightsaber strike on Sidious. The fear of an abrupt change to his current 'comfort' of master/apprentice and carrying out his plot to overthrow the Emperor combined with the unconscious desire to protect what he perceives as Luke's underestimation of the powers of the Emperor are certainly the motivating factors at the beginning of this duel. I have thought alot about the significance of this event, but have never given it a thorough look of the course of this duel and the 'conflict' within Vader from start to finish.

This was a wonderful post and it relates to my post under the 'Star Wars Saga' section on the "Chose One Prophecy re-interpreted" concerning my interpretation of the meaning of the 'balance' brought to the force by Vader in ROTJ. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on that matter.

Thanks again for your wonderful contribution!

 

Great topic, and many insightful posts! So, its like Vader has finally given up on his plan to overthrow his master when he meet up with Luke on Endor before they leave to meet the Emperor.?

Alpha-Red
Now, turning one more page....Vader has failed to turn Luke in ESB. Now he's on Plan C. Vader plans to fight Luke and enrage him to the point where he would be killed by his own son. Luke would turn to the dark side and become Palpatine's apprentice. Luke would not have been limited by injuries like Vader had. Luke would have the chance to rule the galaxy that Anakin did not.

This goes deep, and is very interesting. The conflict, it is Vader vs Anakin, that has always been his battle, i believe he is fighting himself, more so than he fights his son in the final duel. Its almost like you can see that Vader gives up at the end, and knows that he has failed yet again. Then Luke did something that Vader nor the Emperor had prepared for.

Im still wondering what went through Vaders mind the last moments, when Luke was zapped by his Sith Master. He waited a long time before he made a move, why? What does Vader have left to lose anyway anymore, nothing but his son, who he cant seem to decide if he should save or not. If he doesnt, then he is back in the eternal darkness again, in the shadow of his master, a pointless existence, and now with the knowledge that he couldnt save his son either.

 

Hey great points all around. I agree with mostly everything. Although, I think that Darth Vader was being pretty bi-polar during that scene. Most of us think that he gradually let go of the bad and embraced the good. But I think that he might have cycled between intense good and bad, rather than gradually going from one to the other. In other words, he would think of Luke's well-being for a while, and then all of a sudden rush back to intense loyalty to the Emperor.

Man I wish I still had the time and energy to type out these types of long, drawn out Star Wars essays.

BTW, lol @ your Bio, OP!

 

All very, very interesting points, although to be perfectly honest, I've never seen too many contradictions, I think they only become apparent if you look for them. Nevertheless, it all definitely highlights some of the internal workings of Anakin/Vader, which are necessarily contradictory by the nature of the character.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the self-loathing Vader clearly feels, & how that drives some of his behaviour. I've always felt (long before the PT came out) that part of the reason Vader wants to turn Luke to the Dark Side is out of some sort of desperate need to validate his own turn to evil. He wants order, he wants peace, he thinks what he's doing is right - if another Jedi can turn to the Dark Side, it means that he wasn't so out of the ordinary, that it could happen to anyone. The Dark Side was always too powerful, there was nothing he could do. It was his destiny.

It goes back to that perverse desire of bad people to drag others down to their own level. Not for some sick pleasure, it sometimes seems like it's the only way of feeling better about themselves.