CT Vader's motivation for bringing Luke to the Emperor in ROTJ?

Greed comes from fear and anger which Jedi are supposed to intuitively detect. "Guarding his thoughts." Really clutching st straws here.

 

Quoted because....well THIS basically.

 

Anakin falls to the dark side and becomes the problem now.

Yet, it is true. Anakin hid his fear and anger from the Jedi. They had no clue that he killed the Tusken Raiders. Nor that he was married. As we were told and saw, the Jedi and the Sith can sense thoughts and feelings, if they do not bury them.

OBI-WAN: "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they can be made to serve the Emperor."


LUKE: "Your thoughts betray you, father. I feel the good within you. The conflict."


VADER: "Your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong, especially for....sister! So you have a twin sister!"


KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Your thoughts dwell on your mother."


Not to mention that the Jedi could not sense the dark thoughts Palpatine had towards them, nor Dooku before he left.

 

Anakin wears his heart on his sleeve. You're imagining things that the films contradict.

The things that people feel strongly about are detectable by others sensitive to the force. Anakin's fear and anger are continuously remarked upon. Where does he suddenly acquire this control you speak of?

I know. Whenever you need to invent it.

And you're forgetting that Luke fails to stop his feelings from betraying him. Just like his father does regarding his own conflict, his goodness and unwillingness to kill Luke.

 

I'm not imagining anything.

Anakin's fear and anger are apparent when he doesn't exert control. Like on Geonosis when Padme falls from the gunship. Or when he has an emotional outburst in the Council chambers over not being made a Master. But overall, the Jedi did not know that he had feelings for Padme. Or that he was afraid to lose her.

Luke isn't fully trained which is why Vader picks up his feelings for his sister. Anakin was fully trained when he married Padme and had killed the Tusken Raiders. That's why the Council isn't aware of what he truly did. It takes Obi-wan three years to figure out that there is feelings between him and Padme and he doesn't even sense the emotional turmoil in Anakin was specifically about her, when he came to see Padme about Anakin before leaving. He can tell that he was bothered by something, but he has no clue what it was.

Likewise, we know that Palpatine stood in front of the Jedi for years and they had no clue that he was Darth Sidious. They couldn't sense the Force within him and they couldn't sense the anger and hostility that he had towards them. And let us not forget that Palpatine couldn't even sense the conflict in Vader.

 

He wanted Luke to join him and over throw the emperor in Ep5 but in Ep6 it seems like he wanted to rule with all three of them

 

Qui Ghost
Anakin!
No!

Mace:
What is it?

Yoda:
Pain, suffering...death I feel.
Something terrible has happened.
Young Skywalker is in pain... terrible pain.
[/QUOTE]

That's hding his fear and anger? It was so loud that it woke the dead.

Your examples are all failures of trying to hide their feelings.

And the fact that they couldn't figure out Dooku who was born with no ability for empathy, sympathy or friendship is failure 101. A Jedi kid walking around with frequent thoughts of "You're a threat and will be dealt with" should be the easiest read in the galaxy. I don't even think you'd need the force.

 

They felt an outburst of emotion because he wasn't trying to hide it on Tatooine. And yet, they had no clue that he committed genocide. Just that he suffered from emotional pain. They let him stay and promote him to Knighthood and even give him a Padawan.

The point is that Force users can hide their feelings by burying them deep down.

Yet, Yoda had believed there was potential in him to grow beyond that. That's part of the reason he had stayed on as his Master. Why his departure from the Jedi Order was a blow to them. The passage about friendship refers to how he had a friend and fellow Padawan named Lorian Nod, who stole a Holocron and tried to blame Dooku for it, but Dooku ultimately told the truth to the Council, which resulted in Nod's expulsion and his bitter assessment that he didn't know what friendship was. It was only later in life that he came to see the Jedi in a different light with regards to friendship.

Except Anakin didn't go around thinking like that. He did care for the Jedi Order right up to the end.

 

You're imagining that Anakin is successful at doing something his failure at is constantly remarked upon. "You have much fear." etc.

You're talking about expressed feelings now. Not about inner thoughts. Please remain focused.

And neither is Anakin, which is why he's unable to control his fear and so on, and so on.....

Which makes no sense unless you imbue Palpatine with special Sith skills. Skills that Anakin wouldn't have and so therefore cannot have guarded is thoughts as you imagine he did.

Yes Palpatine cannot sense the conflict and the strength of attachment between Vader and his son that will eventually overcome Vader's seduction by the darkside. Over confidence, arrogance and blindness was Palpatine's weakness in the end. Just like it was with the Jedi.

Case closed.

 

Yeah, it feels the most like first he's just pretending that he wants the Emperor to have both him and Luke as apprentices but then in RotJ he actually wants that.

It is a little weird and weak how, given that the Rule of Two was the case for a thousand years Vader and Palpatine seem to agree to put it aside in one conversation and neither is shocked or *openly* suspicious about the other. Although they could have, with wishful thinking, thought Luke would be a non-Sith dark side servant.

 

As I noted, when he's able to keep control of his emotions, they're not easily sensed. In battle against someone that he hates, it is more difficult for him. That's why the script notes that as a duel goes on, Anakin starts becoming angry. When Dooku says this, it is after Obi-wan was hurt and he starts to lose control his emotions. When he's sitting in front of Yoda, he has no idea of how much fear is in his heart.

And Anakin has kept that quiet too. That's why no Jedi knew what he had done and was doing.

Actually, he is fully trained. His issue is sticking to his training all the time.

No special skills. Just incredible control over himself. The dark side is difficult to see and Palpatine himself is capable of a far greater degree of control than others.

He senses the attachment, but what he doesn't sense is the goodness. The compassion. He sensed Anakin's attachment to Padme and was able to exploit that. This time, he cannot sense the goodness.

 

Nobody ever comments on how well Anakin controls his fear and hides his feelings. Only the opposite and frequently.

Sounds like you're now making a case for the good guys can't sense the bad guys and their badness and the bad guys don't sense when their other bad guys have good in them.

That would be convenient, for you, but unfortunately the movies continually remind us of the Jedi being sensitive to darkness and remarking, particularly about Anakin except when the plot needs them not to but they reasonably should.

 

They can sense his fear, his anger and in the case of Oi-Wan his feelings for Padme but they can't sense that he married her in secret or that she's the one he dies in his visions. They may have supernatural powers but they're not omniscient characters.

AotC
"The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is." -Yoda

"Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see." -Yoda
"I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished." -Mace Windu
"Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will." -Yoda

RotJ

"A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor." -Vader
"Yes, I know." -The Emperor
"My son is with them." -Vader
"Are you sure?" -The Emperor
" I have felt him, my master." -Vader
"Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader." -The Emperor
"They are clear, my master." -Vader

 

This is what I'm saying. It is conveniently inconsistent.

 

Only in situations where he loses control of his emotions. When he is much more calm, he's able to hide his feelings.

"It's not that they can't see the dark side coming, it's just that the dark side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the dark side grows."

--George Lucas, Starlog Magazine Interview.

YODA: "Hard to see, the dark side is."

Yoda tells us that sensing the dark side is difficult and as we know according to AOTC, the Jedi's powers are diminishing. It even takes a long time for Mace to sense the dark side is surrounding Palpatine. In the case of Anakin, he has trouble when he is put in an emotional situation that causes him to lose control. When he isn't stressed, then he is better able to focus and keep his feelings buried.

 

Precisely. But he also was emotionally conflicted. Admitting his parentage to Luke affected him deeply, more so than he had previously anticipated, as you well know.

 

i thought vader wanted luke to survive and he wanted a relationship with him. the only way he could see was on the dark side.

(isn't that adorable? because of the light in vader he wanted these things... it just took him awhile to see the dark side was the thing that didn't fit in all of that. he loved luke.)

 

The positive side of Vader longed for those things, and that side of him won out. He just took it a step further when he elected to sacrifice himself for Luke.