PT Was Anakin Skywalker a "bad" Jedi?

As I said in another thread, the character of Anakin as portrayed in the movies only makes sense as somebody suffering from a few personality disorders. He just doesn't react normally or logically.

I doubt that would have alineated Obi-Wan from the Order. Obi-Wan just wished to fulfill Qi-Gon's wish, and it would have been done if Yoda assigned Anakin to a veteran Jedi Master. As a matter of fact, Obi-Wan should be glad that Anakin got the best teacher available.

 

I've learned from past experience that the average human being isn't really capable of being logical. Not really. It was a very hard lesson for me learn. However, shouldn't Anakin be judged as a sentient being, instead of whether he was an ideal Jedi or not? I'm not saying that the answer would be different. But perhaps being a Jedi shouldn't be considered the ultimate expression of being a sentient being.

 

Let's see how much difference this makes.... Mass murder of a village of nomads, including the women and children? Cutting down 'younglings', ostensibly to get some power or other that he particularly wanted? Leading an attack on his former colleagues, his allies.....while knowing they have done nothing wrong but..again, he wants this power that he's been offered? Throttling his wife, who is at the time carrying his child(ren)? Oh..and blaming everyone else but himself for anything he does wrong or hasn't got/can't have?

I think he's a pretty poor example of a sentient being....

 

Well, to be fair, from his point of view the Jedi are evil....at least at that point.

 

Well...sure...he says that, but....what possible reason does he have to believe that?

 

Perhaps that they are hypocrites.

 

From Anakin's "point of view" He saw Mace try to assassinate the Chancellor and believes that the Jedi want to take over the Republic (mostly from listening to Palps spin, although from a "certain point of view" that's what would indeed happen if Palps was [rightfully] arrested.)
His faith in the Jedi is shaken from the "Not-in-session" mission he received to spy on the head of the Republic.
He believes the Jedi are at fault for not making him a master, thus making him little more than their puppet on the Jedi Council.

That's off the top of my head. It's all there and spelled out clearly in ROTS.

 

Am I the only one who can watch ROTS for the 100th time and still think up until the last, "Dude, no, you can totally make this right! Help Mace, arrest the Sith Lord!" It was extremely well handled, I think, because of all things -- what are the odds, right? -- Anakin is ACTUALLY trying to do things BY THE BOOK for once, and he wants to bring Palpatine to justice. It's Mace's arrogance and lack of trust in Anakin that seals the fate of the galaxy, in some ways. Anakin would have helped Mace arrest Palpatine, you can tell he would have. But he wasn't going to help Mace KILL Palpatine. That was going "a bridge too far," so to speak. But what Anakin ended up doing obviously was much worse.

I think it was a very believable downfall in the sense that not only did Anakin have a reason to want to help Palpatine (to save Padme), but he also wanted to do things properly. Once that went out the window, once he helped Palpatine, there was truly no turning back. I mean, you just basically committed treason yourself by that point, so what are you going to do? Kill Palpatine yourself and then go back to Yoda and be like, "Yeah, so... things got a little bit crazy. I kind of killed Mace, basically. But it's ok because I also killed Palpatine and he was the Sith Lord. We're all good though right?" lol

 

Indeed. And Palpatine, of course, relies on all of that -- the fragmenting of Anakin's conscience (as you point out, he attempted to do the right thing), his desperate need to save Padme (he seemed to have only disclosed his dreams to Yoda, who basically dismissed them), and the sheer, crippling terror that he had committed a crime for which he would not be forgiven (helping Palpatine to dispatch the head of the Jedi Order). A deftly-delivered plot.

IMO, anyway.

 

I disagree. The only reason Anakin is trying to do things by the book is exclusively because Palpatine (allegedly) has something that he wants: the knowledge/power to save Padmé. Too me, Anakin doesn’t come across as someone who is finally trying to do the right thing, but merely hypocrite who is willing to do good only when it serves his own purpose. Palpatine didn’t suffer the same faith as Dooku because he could offer Anakin something he desired more then revenge. Nothing more.

No, it’s Anakin’s inability to let go of the people he loves – his decision to place his own selfish desires above everything else – that seals the fate of the Galaxy. Mace only tried to do what any other sensible person would have done, and had Anakin not interfered, his actions would have saved countless of lives.

Yes Anakin would have helped Mace arrest Palpatine, but he would also help free him again (and, as we see, even go as far as murder innocent children), regardless of the consequences, if it meant getting closer to get what he wanted. The moment Anakin decided to leave the council chamber he was ready to become Palpatine’s willing pawn.

I don’t think Anakin’s fate was sealed when he cut off Mace’s hand because he didn’t do it with the intention of causing Mace’s death. Was it immensely stupid thing to do? Yes. But if Anakin intended to kill Mace there were many opportunities for him to do so. Even after he became an unwilling accomplish in Mace’s murder, he still had a chance to make things right, but instead he used is as a poor excuse to continue down the wrong path and commit even greater atrocities.

 

a) He knows Palpatine isn't simply the Chancellor, he is the Sith Lord that "we have been looking for" - the only reason he stops Mace from killing him is because he wants the knowledge he believes Palpatine has to save Padmé. The rumination scene prior to his race to the Chancellor's office is all about exactly that. As he cuts Mace's hand off he cries "I need him", and as he settles down on his knees in front of Sidious and pledges himself to do anything that is asked of him he tells him he will do so just so long as he helps him to save Padmé.
b) If he senses that the Jedi are, from his point of view, evil for wanting to overthrow the Chancellor...that would be a bit odd as he has just five minutes prior to that claim explained how he is more powerful than the Chancellor and will overthrow him.
c) His sense of betrayal at being asked to spy on Palpatine is based upon his being a "good man" and "a friend". He learns, however, that Palpatine is the Sith Lord ("the one we have been looking for") and so... actually the Jedi were absolutely right to be suspicious of him and he isn't, after all, a "good man" or a "friend". Anakin wishes to kill him once he reveals who he is, and will happily kill him afterwards to rule his new Empire. In short, whatever reasons he had to be upset by that request are erased by the revelation of Palpatine's true identity.
d) Not giving you a promotion you think you deserve...not really, I think, an adequate reason for defining someone as evil.

ROTS spells out, actually, that Anakin has no reason to believe the Jedi are evil - and in fact his tear on Mustafar is about his knowing that what he has done and is doing is evil.

 

But he still also believes it, that's why Hayden says that he is also deceiving himself.

"The problem is that Anakin more or less sells his soul to the devil, and in doing so is FED A BUNCH OF PROPAGANDA, which HE IS FORCED TO BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE POSITION HE'S IN. But it's all actually A CON, so you can be very sympathetic if you allow yourself to be DECEIVED BY THE CON as well."

--Hayden Christensen, Star Wars Insider #82

That's why he keeps going back and forth. He believes in it, but he also knows that he himself is evil. And when he is confronted by Obi-wan, he is furious and the more that he is furious, the more he believes in what he says.

 

I said this in my earlier post:

I don't see how Anakin's actions against the Tusken should determine whether he is a good Jedi or not. I think that he should be judged as a sentient being. And as I had pointed out, I doubt that the answer would be different. I don't think that being a Jedi would make any difference on Anakin's character or the character of any other individual.

 

I don't think he was a bad Jedi, taking into account the events of TCW. If you're "bad," I'm not sure you could be considered a Jedi in the first place.

 

I think it's possible. I don't think that Jedi automatically means good . . . just a certain path.

 

Exactly.

 

TCW paints him in a far better light than the PT did

 

I've never seen TCW. But the PT seemed to paint Anakin as very human . . or sentient, or however you want to put it.

 

He is definitely very human, but TCW paints as a "better Jedi" than the PT

 

Anakin should probably have been expelled from the Jedi Order after killing all of the Sand People. Yoda knew of this happening and did nothing of it. Ashoka nearly gets executed for supposedly killing guards in her prison cell and Anakin doesn't even get reprimanded. He is also a poor Jedi because he has an inappropriate relationship that's forbidden by the order.

Although even if Anakin had not joined the dark side, the entire order still would've been destroyed during Order 66. Sidious finds another apprentice somewhere, perhaps a youngling, and raises him or her into servitude. His fall overall was pretty irrelevant to the timeline of the galaxy. He was just in the right place at the right time for the Emperor to choose him. Any number of Force users could have become a Sith apprentice like Vader did.

 

To be honest, Qui-Gon was the only "good" Jedi in the PT. He listened to the Force first. He didn't just bow to Jedi rules because they were there. He questioned them, tested them, and found them wanting. Yoda and the Council were following set-in-stone rules that admitted no argument. Anakin and his connection to the prophecy threw this into chaos. The Jedi had no idea what bringing "balance" to the Force might mean. Qui-Gon viewed it as "This kid is important. He should learn about the Force so he can fulfill his destiny. I must follow the Force." While the Council was thinking, "Why are you bringing this old stuff up? We have a perfectly good system that has flourished for centuries. Why are you constantly pushing against these perfectly good standards?"

What Qui-Gon got that no one else did, was that there was a big change coming: the Sith were returning, they knew the Jedi playbook, and so the old rules wouldn't work. Palpatine saw what Qui-Gon saw: Anakin was the key. The Jedi Order stuck their heads in the sand, trying desperately to cling to the old ways of doing things. Anakin showed the ability to see the future: the response? - "Dreams pass in time." No compassion, no attempt at understanding, just a brush-off with a "remember, NO attachments!" finger wag.

I often wonder what would have happened if Qui-Gon's ideas had been accepted by the Order? Anakin would have been trained knowing his mother had been freed and was happy. His love for Padme wouldn't be secret and so would have access to advice and support from informed outside sources. (Seriously, that "advice" Yoda gives him in ROTS is some of the most unintentionally douchy stuff I have ever heard. Sure, just accept that your wife and unborn child will bite the dust. Get over it you big crybaby!) MOST IMPORTANTLY, he wouldn't have to go to a Sith Lord to actually be listened to - effectively eliminating the worst influence on him.

 

Yes, Anakin was not a very good Jedi at the start due to his unusual Jedi upbringing and making him a Knight and giving him apprentice a few weeks after Geonosis is quite foolish.

 

I agree with much of what you say but...

I think that advice to most Jedi would be sound. Yoda failed to understand or appreciate that Anakin had to be handled differently to a normal Jedi. Most Jedi would be able to overcome that stuff and do exactly as Yoda says... no different to the way most of us handle grief in the real world. At some stage, after fighting it for a while, you learn to accept it and move on.

 

The fact that Yoda couldn't see that Anakin was different or didn't bother to adjust his advice solidifies my belief that the Jedi Code had become too legalized to be in balance with the Force. Even while Yoda is giving Anakin this useless advice, he knows that Qui-Gon has returned from the Netherworld. He knows these rules he's telling Anakin are changing. Yoda is being a bad Jedi here because he's just giving Anakin the same old tired line when he knows there's something more going on. Why is he not taking more interest in a clearly troubled Jedi? Especially one who will be given the very sensitive mission of spying on the Chancellor.