Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?

I'm with you on that one, THEFORCEROCKS.

I think the real success goes to the ones that raised them and sacrificed their own lives including the Organas and Beru and Owen.

Especially that part.

 

As do I, I find that Owen and Beru are often forgotten due to not having as much screen time.

 

Again the Jedi were doomed with or without Anakin's involvement at all. They chose to accept the use of the clone army which sealed their fate. Once the order was given they were done for and Anakin wasn't instrumental in this. He was a part of it but not a necessary part. He was however a necessary part of the eventual salvation and restoration of the true nature of the Jedi. He not only must destroy Palpatine but it's through his bloodline that the Jedi will be reborn.

Also there isn't a scene in which the Jedi code directly leads to the failure of the Republic but this critique is implicit in the outcome of the events we witness in the saga. Anakin's marriage to Padme and subsequent fatherhood is something strictly forbidden by the Jedi code. If the law of the Jedi had been followed to perfection then the galaxy would've been lost permanently. It's through the disobedience of the dogmatic views of the Jedi code that salvation is ultimately achieved.

I can draw a parallel to the foundation of the early christian church in the days of Paul and what we find in the reading of his Epistles to perhaps help illustrate what I mean. The strict law of the Old Covenant was proving problematic for the gentile converts in Paul's day (dietary restrictions and circumsision being particularly troubling) and yet was still a basis for authority as Christ had based much of his legitimacy on his life being the fulfillment of Jewish tradition. Paul decides rather ingeniously to split the law into two categories. The Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law. The letter of the law was getting in the way but the spirit was the basis for salvation from a christian perspective. As long as one kept true to the spirit of the law this would lead to salvation. To bring it home the Jedi were caught up in the letter of the code and were forgetting the spirit of it. They were ignoring the living force as Qui-gon would say. This is evidenced by the direct violation of the code being the ultimate means of restoration.

 

The Code in regards to Anakin isn't what damned him or the Jedi. It was and still is right, to not have attachments and to be married. Breaking the Code damned Anakin. His marriage to Padme and his inability to let go of her, is what damns him. Even into the OT, the Jedi still don't want Luke to be attached to people. The only change in the Code comes in letting Luke and Leia be raised by families, rather than begin the training right away. That's not to say that training from birth was wrong, just that in this situation, it was the only way. In both the films and eu, Jedi who have attachments are more often damned than those who didn't have them. Jedi can love and be compassionate, they just could not be attached and this is where Anakin fails. He could love Padme and have compassion for all life. He just could not be attached to her. Married to her.

 

I don't see that interpretation. Anakin's breaking of the code is what led to the eventual freedom of the galaxy. His actions do nothing to doom the Jedi as I have pointed out. Anakin is never damned as he would then have no hope of salvation which in fact he does achieve. He loses his way surely but this isn't due to his marriage or connection with Padme but because of the decisions he makes in and of themselves. His most heinous choices had nothing to do with Padme at all I don't think. He espouses this connection to her as being his motive but his actions give his words the lie.

Luke is encouraged to escew attachments but it is precisely his attachments that are his most profound strength. His ties to his friends don't doom him or the galaxy and only serve to strengthen his resolve. His love for his father and attachment there are what leads him back to try and save him and ultimately everything else. Obi-wan and Yoda tell Luke that he must let go of his love for his father but Luke refuses to do so and is proven to be right. What further proof do we need that the old way of the Jedi is wrong?

 

Without violence? How about if he just stayed the hell out of the way... there's an idea. To say that the Jedi would have been offed with or without him is to say that without any doubt Palps was faking defeat and there's no way Mace could have defeated him. Since that is still debated in a heated fashion and GL won't just come out and say one way or the other, there's no way to know that, so we don't know that the Jedi would have been offed without Anakin becoming a Sith. Order 66 began after his knighting, remember?

The idea of Anakin's redemption is a funny one to me. His son had to shove it down his throat and them make him choose. After trying to off him, and then watching him get fried for a while... Anakin finally steps in. After 20 years of wiping people out he then tells his son "Tell your sister you were right. I really have been a great guy all this time". Wow, if only we could all be that humble!

 

No Mace wouldn't have killed Sids as that was *Anakin's* destiny remember? (I think it's mentioned somewhere, but I understand if you missed it as it *is* SUBTLE) So even if Mace beat Sids in the duel (which I think is likely) he still wasn't going to win the stand off. So the Jedi were indeed toast through no fault of Anakin's.

 

Fixed

 

Nope. Mace didn't have the power to beat Palpatine (or you could argue it wasn't his destiny). Palps fights with more than just a lightsaber and was nowhere near finished. Mace simply put, couldn't win, Anakin having a part or no

I might add that had Anakin just quit the jedi order as some have suggested then Mace would never have discovered that Palpatine was a Sith until it was too late to do anything about it anyway. It was Anakin that revealed this to him as you may remember.

 

The thing is, he wouldn't have been greedy and power hungry, if he wasn't married to Padme. Breaking the Code like he did only have a positive spin, because the children survived to bring him back to the good side. He shouldn't have put himself in a position where he needed his children to clean up his mess. He shouldn't have needed his children to bring him back, because he shouldn't have let himself fall in the first place. Anakin wanted to be all powerful because he couldn't accept that he failed to save his mother and that he cannot save Padme. Once he turned, they didn't matter as much.

Luke can have his friendships. Luke can love. But he cannot be attached. It is true of all Jedi. Past, present and future.

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

"It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, 'I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die.'[/i] Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221


"This is obviously a very pivotal scene for Anakin because this is reuniting with his mother and his youth and at the same time dealing with his inabilit

 

Obi-wan tells Luke that his father is lost and without hope. Luke says he can't kill his father and refuses to do so and Obi-wan thinks the situation is lost. Luke is clearly *attached* to his father right up to the very end where he states "I won't leave you.". Luke refuses to let go of that attachement and the hope it gives him for his father's eventual return to the light. Obi-wan who had ever as much reason as Luke to care for Vader lets go of his attachment. Luke never does. Also I would like to note that I think love without attachement of some sort doesn't even exist really. It's a fictional animal. If you don't feel attachement to someone or thing you don't love them. I think the word Anakin uses to describe the Jedi view on forbidden love is possesion. This is possible but not the other.

 

According to Lucas, you can feel love and not be attached. Attachment=possessive love, according to him. Luke didn't want to kill his father initially, because he didn't want to be the one who killed his father. When he tries to save his father, he does so because it is the compassionate thing to do. What saves them both is the fact that they let go of their attachments. They still love their loved ones, but Luke is willing to accept that his friends might die for their beliefs. He is willing to let them sacrifice themselves to restore freedom, something that Yoda spoke of.

YODA: "Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help
them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."

BEN: "It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your
friends are made to suffer."

LUKE: "And that is why I have to go."

BEN: "Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader."

LUKE: "You won't."

YODA: "Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi
Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

BEN: "Patience."

LUKE: "And sacrifice Han and Leia?"

YODA: "If you honor what they fight for...yes!"

By going, he dishonors his friends and all they went through. That is why Leia tells him to leave when she sees him. Why she and Han got upset at Lando, when they found out he was coming. They think of him, not of themselves. Luke dishonored them by coming to their rescue and he does so again, when he picks up his Lightsaber to fight the Sith. He really dishonors his sister when he nearly kills to protect her, which she does not want him to do.

Attachment=Possessive love.
Compassion=Unconditional love.

 

Well said Calloway.

 

Oops, definitely a typo. I meant shouldn't have.

 

What Luke feels for his father is to an entire different degree than anything we see on display in the PT. That is what characterizes Luke so strongly for me. The depth and strength of his feelings. You can say that Luke made a mistake in going to save his friends in ESB and that he learned a grave lesson because of his error, but I disagree. For what does he spend the first 30 minutes of ROTJ doing but saving his friends? This while he could be catching some valuable Yoda time. Truth is he didn't learn his lesson and he always acted on his feelings. His feelings for his friends and those for a father he had never known before who he had every reason to despise.

Listen to Obi-wan's dialouge with Vader during the duel in ANH. There is no compassion on display here. Anakin is completely dead to Kenobi as is evidenced by Ben simply calling him Darth (for an in-universe explanation of the use of what was then Vader's first name mind you). What we see evidenced in Luke's interactions with Vader is a different colored horse. Not only is Luke prepared to sacrifice his life in an effort to do something everyone is telling him can't be done but he is willing to put the fate of the galaxy at risk as well. There is no logic or reason in this.

It's pure love, and not in a mild you must love all men as your brother sort of way, but in an I will give everything I have and will ever have to ensure your return kinda way. There is no middleground with Luke. There is success and life or failure and death. This isn't the love Luke feels for all fellow beings but the feeling he feels for this one. (of course I've already argued that Anakin's fate is the same as the galaxy's...but oh well. )

 

Truth is he didn't learn his lesson and he always acted on his feelings.

Exactly what Anakin use to do. Luke's training wasn't all that different, but Luke just wasn't obsessed with his Father. He loved him, unconditionally.

I don't know what we're discussing here, so never mind.

 

I think what is on trial here isn't love but wrong decisions. No matter the motivations wrong decisions are still wrong. Anakin commited atrocities in the name of love, however this due to the dangerous nature of attachment but Anakin's immature and foolish response to the nature of attachment. In fact ROTS shows the impossibility of Anakin's situation on some levels as he is pulled in three directions by the love he feels. He feels attachment to the Jedi and Obi-wan specifically, he feels attachment to Palpatine as a mentor, and he feels an overwhelming attachment to Padme. In the end though the passion that trumps all this is the love he has for himself. When he kills younglings he isn't truly thinking of Padme but the power that could be his. If he were truly thinking of Padme he would know that she obviously wouldn't want this.

What in turn saves him in the end is his letting go of the love for himself. He sacrifices himself to save his son. To argue that there isn't posession or attachment there is nonsensical I think. To say Vader sees *his* son dying in front of his eyes, and then is moved to save *his* son at the cost of his own life isn't true attachment is to be wrong I think. He doesn't see some guy being fried by Palpatine as I am sure he has seen that hundreds of times. No he sees *his* son. This love for what was once his and what he threw away, brings him back.

 

So we are talking about what I thought we were.

I think what is on trial here isn't love but wrong decisions.

Yes, but the love Anakin felt (selfish, obsessive) was what caused him to make those wrong decisions. It all ties together.

 

I could then argue that hunger made me knock over a gas station so I could then go by me something to eat. The hunger caused me to do something illegal. Then you should pass a law against hunger right? No you prosecute the illegal action not the impulse.

 

I don't see how that matters. I wasn't arguing that what Anakin did was right. I was simply stating that wrong decisions were caused due to certain circumstances.

I'm sorry, I just put a word in and I had no idea what the point of the discussion was, so if you could clear that up, I'd be happy to resume the debating.

 

I've been arguing that the old Jedi order of the PT was flawed do to their inability to change with the times. That their dogmatic views on some things like marriage and only accepting young children as intiates into the Jedi order was outmoded and that this is apparent from what we see in the OT. That Anakin was something altogether different than the average Jedi and that the old rules really didn't apply to him any longer. I think this is show by the outcome in ROTJ, where Luke who would never have been born had the Jedi rules been followed redeems Anakin and helps bring peace to the galaxy and will eventually build a new and improved Jedi Order.

darth-sinister is arguing that no the Jedi code was fine and tht if Anakin had just stuck to the code everything would be all right. That Luke was just an anomaly and that after ROTJ it will be back to business as usual for the new Jedi Order. Which I guess pretty much brings you up to speed.

 

Okay, well how can that be true then?? Luke managed to be married, AND stay a jedi. He had both, and that's being Anakin's son too.

 

I still think there is no such thing as a love without attachments, and I *know* there isn't a happy marriage without them.

 

Luke's marriage however is still one of his "weak" points in that when he thought Mara had died he was made incredibly angry. Luke however manages to still serve the Jedi Order and I believe that he has overcome his fear of Mara dying as his lack of fear of any kind is what enabled him to defeat Lomi Plo.

So he at the least now has a marriage without Lucasian attatchments in that Luke I don't think would turn to the Dark Side and slaughter children to save Mara partially because as he shows time and time again in the movies Luke would rather die than fall to the Dark Side.

 

Luke going to rescue Han on Tatooine was a different situation, than going to Bespin. Bespin was a trap designed to bring Luke out of hiding and either kill or convert him. Going to Tatooine and facing Jabba is different, because it is not a trap. Luke goes to rescue Han on his terms, his way. Not Vader's way which is what he wanted. Luke acting on his feelings is what gets him into trouble until the last moment

"It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it?s only in the last act?when he throws his sword down and says, 'I?m not going to fight this'?that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It?s only that way that he is able to redeem his father."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000


"I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based. I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding?a 'bigger picture' understanding?of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.

Whether we're going to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Obviously, people have a lot of different dreams of where America should be, and where it should fit into things. Obviously, very few of them are compatible, and very few of them are very compatible with the laws of nature. Human nature means battling constantly between being completely self-absorbed and trying to be a communal creature. Nature makes you a communal creature. The ultimate single-minded, self-centered creature is a cancer cell. And mostly, we're not made up of cancer cells.

--George Lucas, Academy of Achievement Interview, 1999

BEN: "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they can be made to serve the Emperor."

By burying and then letting go of his feelings, Luke is able to become a Jedi. He relies on instinct and knowledge, less on emotion once he has learned his mistake.

There is compassion there. He doesn't hate Vader. He feels pity for a man who in twenty years, has not changed at all. He is still the same headstrong, power hungry person that he had been before. He loved him, but was betrayed by his best friend.