Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?

No what wouldve led to the freedom of the galaxy would be if Anakin wouldve killed Sidious like he was suppose to do, then Luke and Leia wouldnt have to fight so much against the EMPIRE, one ANakin helped to maintain,Sidious created it.

No the love he has for his son to do what he shouldve done all along kill Sidious. It would be sad and tragic if he let another family member die because he did not do the right thing.

Of course which is why the marriage ends on Mustafar. What did she tell him in the beginning? I want to raise our child on Naboo that was Anakin's cue right there and he gets another one on Mustafar. He misses both of them.

Okay but it should not have gotten to that level. He shouldve sacrificed himself for Padme instead of wanting to rule the galaxy and do other stuff. Lets face Padme sacrificed her life, the Jedi sacrificed theirs could Anakin not have done the same thing in ROTS, maybe sacrifice himself and Palps but thats just a thought.

No Luke couldve been born just that he would be born on Naboo and that would require Anakin give up his membership to the JEDI Order . Also had Anakin killed Sidious the first time then there would be no need for such a long struggle to bring peace and freedom to the galaxy. Also there is a new Jedi Order yes but to say it is improved is false. More chaos and confusion existed even with the new Jedi Order

 

Thanks for bringing me up to speed there, Calloway.

The thing with the whole "Anakin should have followed the Jedi Order and everything would have been alright" point of view, is that the Jedi Order is not all that perfect. In fact, it's far from that. It was heavily influenced by the Republic, and it was slowly corrupting from within. Sidious would have given out the command to execute Order 66, the Jedi would have died, and maybe, just maybe, Yoda and Obi-Wan would have learned what they were doing was wrong, but I think their new take on how to train Luke was due to Anakin's failure. They had a reflection to look upon, as did Luke. Luke looked at Vader and that was his motivation to stay on the Lightside, he didn't want to turn into that. He did it for his lost Father, and the hope of restoring a new Jedi Order.

Although, it would have been fine and dandy if Anakin had killed Sidious right then and there in his office, somethings may not have been realized along the way.

 

I never said that the Jedi Order was perfect. Or that it didn't need to adapt. What I did say and what Lucas said is that the attachment rule is important in giving us a clear headed Jedi. One who is able to function properly, because he/she is focused on the moment. Their mind isn't elsewhere, concerned about matters that are not as important as what they are doing right now. Anakin needed to be concentrating on stopping Dooku, not going back for Padme. Luke needed to finish his training, before going off on a Jedi rescue mission.

 

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Yes the Republic was but thats why the JEDI were trying to weed out the corrupt Senators.No one ever said the JEDI ORDER was perfect, in fact in LOE Kenobi tells Anakin that Yoda was not infalliable.

If Sidious was dead how could he give out Order 66, also it was not just the JEDI that were targeted some Senators were too namely one Padme. If Sidious was dead then maybe Padme would not have died of a broken heart?

Okay just like Anakin shouldve thought about Padme before deciding to kneel before her political adversary and on top of that murder younglings. The goodness of Padme shouldve been enough to keep him on the lightside.

No he did it for his father he wasnt concerned with restoring the Jedi Order that was the least of his concerns.

Well had he killed Sidious then he and Padme couldve raised their child on Naboo, she would not have died of a broken heart and who knows what mightve happened.

 

-Well, I was wondering when you'd reply! On two of your points -

In the PT, a blood test is used to help find Force adepts. Not very religious. Then they give Anakin a test right out of ESP investigations. It isn't until the ANH that the Force is referred to a a religion, by one person - Tarkin. Also in that film, those who believe in the Force are called socerers and crazy wizards, making the Force and it practicioners seems more like alchemists of the middle ages, not followers of a relgion. I don't think the Force as a God, worshipped by the Jedi and Sith, fits with what we actually see in the films. At most, the Force and it's followers seem more like two opposing camps of philosophers than religious adherents.

-If I took a "larger view", I'd have to agree that what replaced the old Jedi order and Republic was worth the billions of lives lost, the planets destroyed, and the general ruin and misery caused to bring it about. As Padme asks Anakin "at what cost?" The old systems' flaws were hardly so awful that they required total elimination and destruction. The Great Leap forward in China was seen by some there as a way to sweep away the old and introduce the perfect state. It only cost how many millions their lives? Palpatine's "larger view" is just moral relativism slicked up in fancy language.

 

Whoops.
I was so blinded by Han Solo's innate coolness that I forgot his "hokey religions" comment. Not that it invalidates my point.
In the PT, the Jedi appear more like Babylon 5's Psi-Corp than any religious group. In the OT, the Force is dismissed as a joke (Han Solo) or mentioned in passing (Tarkin). Luke's never heard of it; even if Owen & Beru never spoke of it, he did get into town every so often. I can't see an authentic religious movement going from awesome power to totally forgotten and/or dismissed in only 20+ years.

 

I do agree that the Jedi Order isn't perfect, however I still think that Anakin fufilling his destiny in ROTS instead of ROTJ would have been better for the Galaxy.

 

The Jedi were serving the Republic and were following orders, like mere soldiers. They were never involved in politics so immensely before, and now, the Chancellor didn't even bother consulting them before taking action.

I'm glad you agree the Order isn't perfect.

Then the Jedi as a whole, not just Obi-Wan and Yoda, would have gone on living the way they did before. Nothing would have changed.

I don't know how we got to discussing whether or not what Anakin did was right.

You're avoiding the fact that the Jedi Order would not have changed, there's no evidence that it would have. I doubt very much the Order would even approve of Anakin's marriage, so there goes his career, along with Padme's because the Queen would not allow her to serve anymore.

Master_Starwalker: It would have, in the long run, but the Jedi Order was slowly corrupting, one way or another, so the Galaxy would have suffered anyway. Ultimately, yes, you are right, but when it comes down to the Jedi Order, it would not have benefited.

 

Just a side note. Padme doesn't seem that heartbroken about not being a Senator anymore; she might not be thrilled, but it wasn't as important as the baby. For Anakin on the other hand, he couldn't make the choice between his marriage and being a Jedi. He tried to keep both, and ended up losing both.

And on your sig - if the Packers are the Jedi, what does that make Brett "fish or cut bait" Favre? I hope this season has a happier ending than the Jedi's, though.

 

Anakin was the perfect Jedi, powerful and nearly invincible. Alas, he had emotions, and they can make us do terrible things.

 

The baby definitely was more important to Padme then being a Senator, but losing her prestige would be heartbreaking, and she would no longer be able to fight for what she believed in. So it is a terrible loss, but as you said, not as much as of a loss as the baby and Anakin.

Actually, I have no idea who or what the Packers are! That's just a line from "That 70s Show" and Eric just happens to be a Star Wars lunatic like I am . That's his grilfriend trying to make the situation for him a lot less complicated.

 

I promise to go back on topic after this.
Of course, the 70's show takes place in WI, USA - how silly of me to forget.

Just take my word for it - the Packers are the representatives of all that is good in the NFL - and the USA for that matter; just think Qui-Gon as the Vince Lombardi of the Jedi. The Go Darth Vader shirt must be for the Chicago Bears.

Back to topic. Anakin is still a failure as a Jedi.

 

The Go Darth Vader shirt must be for the Chicago Bears.

I believe it was...

And going back on topic...

Anakin is still a failure as a Jedi.

Ultimately, yes.

 

I don't really view the Jedi Order as corrupted though. I view them as the guardians of peace and justice who are however fallible and make a few critical missteps in the Prequels partially due to the fact that the situation as Sidious has manipulated it to be is one where the Jedi have no correct steps that they can take, putting it all on Anakin's shoulders. The Jedi serve initmately with the Republic due to the fact that it represents civilization but they clearly are willing to kill the Republic's leader if it means that they defend the citizens of the galaxy as a whole.

The Jedi are flawed but, I think it's telling that the main heroes of the Prequel are the two Jedi that survive and stay loyal to the Order wheras the Protagonist of the Prequels goes from hero to villain the moment he turns his back on the Jedi.

I do think that the Order as of the OT was a preferable Order for the galaxy as it would be more able to admit that it was able to make mistakes and likely could deal better with the Force being clouded, but I've thought ever since ROTS that the Jedi weren't unbalancing the Force.

 

The Jedi were torn in half. Either they go along with the Republic (who was indeed, slowly placing itself in the hands of a Sith Lord) or they stick with their flawed traditions. Either way, they were doomed. Whether it be that fateful day in the Chacellor's office, or in a another decade, the Jedi would realize that their Order was indeed flawed. And seeing as how they didn't come to realize their mistakes after so many years, their arrogance would most likely blind them until some sort of tragedy ocurred. Where their eyes would open, and they would learn. It's not easy to simply change the rules and have half of your Jedi one way, and the other another way. That's probably the main reason why I don't blame all of this on them. They were backstabbed, and blinded as well. But you can't deny that they were following a constitution without much of a fight. They said it was for the peace of the Galaxy, but look at what ended up happening...but agian, I stick with my earlier statement. They were immensely flawed, but it was not their fault, ultimtaely.

 

I've never argued for moral relativism. I'm all for morals when it comes to the behavior of people however there are places where right and wrong don't apply. You don't go about screaming the evil of the hailstorm that dents the hood of your car now do you? Gods seem to work on levels above the ideas of right and wrong at least from my reading and awareness. In any religious system there is plenty of evidence for what you or I would argue as extreme unjustice or perhaps even cruelty carried out by your god of choice. The usual counter to this is that who are we to understand the justice of god?

Lucas silly addition of a bloodtest to the Force mythos aside we have every evidence that the Jedi treated their belief in the Force as a religion. Yoda's teachings of Luke in ESB convey metaphyisical philosophy pure and simple. This isn't science. If you wish to term it philosophy then go ahead but I would invite you to define the distinct differences between religion and philosophy. In fact many religions are both with belief and worship being one and the same. Taoism comes to mind. Does belief in the nature of the force lead it's adherents to behave in specific ways? Check. Does it present some form of afterlife? Check. In the movies they vaugely touch on the fact that the force binds all life together and we see it can create life in the form of Anakin. Sounds like a god to me.

 

I'm hoping you're replying to someone else and not me, Calloway.

 

I do agree that they shouldn't have stuck with the Republic so tightly as it would make the Jedi being unbiased on situations (which is indeed a goal of theirs it seems due to the dettatchment rules)however I'm not sure that I see Luke's Order going any different from movie footage alone when you consider that Luke has a military comission with the Rebellion. The EU admittedly has Luke dropping his military comission and the Jedi Order serving as a private entity that works with the Republic a lot but is not a part of it and I do think that's one thing that Luke does far better than the Old Republic as the Jedi Order should serve the Force above all else and if the Will of the Force can be furthered by working with the Republic that's great but if it can't then they should approach it another way. It really is the main flaw of the Order in my eyes that they were so tied into when they should be able to meet with him at times but should themselves be a separate organization.

 

yes, agreed. we just attribute that sort of righteousness to god because we think god is infallible. or it's our construction of god, depending on what you adhere to.

heh, i don't think the addition of midichlorians is unnecessary in that sense. i think it's the jedi overscientificizing the whole thing and wanting kids with the greatest potential because they had to weed out those with little first. but as we will learn great potential doesn't equal personality or anything. it's just a physical thing they exploited as a sign of power. the jedi know next to nothing about power in the PT. they equal it with muscle mass, not with mind.
anyway, they treat it like a calling the force thing and therefore claim they can take individuals' rights.

 

I think I get what you're saying. That besides the fact that the Jedi were heavily influenced by the Republic, there was nothing all that wrong with them?

 

Asking if Anakin was a failure as a Jedi is sort of a misleading question. In truth the Jedi order as a whole failed. Anakin therefore didn't fail the body the body failed everyone. This again wasn't Anakin's fault. You can only interpret Anakin as being responsible for the Jedi's fate if you think that Mace would have been able to kill Palpatine in ROTS. I don't accept this interpretation as we know this was Anakin's destiny. I also think that much evidence can be given that it was Anakin's destiny to turn to the darkside all along. Maybe this isn't what GL intended but I think that it can be demonstrated from the story.

 

And you don't view turning to the Dark Side as a failure?

 

It was certainly a personal failure and the results of this decision brought him incredible anguish all of his life. However I think that evidence can be gleaned from the movies that perhaps he was destined to fail. The force itself has both a light side and a dark side. These aren't two seperate entities warring for dominance (at least we have no evidence for this being the case) but parts of a whole. Like the popular yin yang of eastern mythology and philosophy. Why would we expect the force's child to only exhibit the traits from one side of the force? In order for Anakin to fully represent the force and therefore life itself he had to display both positive and negative attributes. He had to be both creator and destroyer to truly be his "father's" son.

 

Yes, I see what you mean. This is the main reason I whole-heartedly believe Anakin was a creation of the Force.

I like your view on the whole being his "father's" son. Well put.

 

The primary reason I reject the notion that Sidious/Plaugeis (sp?) created Anakin through the force is that the sheer number of rings we would have to jump through interpretively would be exhausting. So Sids or Plags create Anakin in some slave girl on Tatooine presumably because this is Palps home planet I guess. The point of this I suppose would be to have someone uber-powerful on the darkside and help even things out a bit, but when would the training take place? I guess Sids would have to at some point leave off from consolidating power Coruscant (sp?) and arrange for Anakin's release from slavery so he could then begin his training in the darkside. Or are we to think that Palps had it planned that Anakin would be trained as a Jedi and that he would turn him later as indeed happened? For this to be the case Palps would have to have planned for the Naboo cruisers shield generator to have been hit in it's escape from Naboo and also planned for the Jedi to decide to land on Tatooine and also have planned for Watto to have the only hyperdrive that the Jedi would need and...see it would be exhausting. It just makes little sense.