Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?

That's scapegoating the Jedi for Anakin's choices.

 

I can see Anakin as a failure, sure.

His attitude and lust for power was what kept him from his full Jedi Potential.


His lust for power and immaturity mixed with Sidious' influences was what made him fail as a Jedi and excede in Sith hood.

 

Oh yeah, most of my criticisms of Anakin as a Jedi are some of the very things that make Vader such an effective Sith. From a certain point of view he also fails in the end as a Sith given that he destroys the Sith Order, so one could argue that it's a parallel which Lucas does love.

 

When Anakin caught off Mace's hand, it was the worst a Jedi had done so far in the PT. So yeah, he put his own interests ahead of his duty to the Jedi Order, then put his own interests ahead of the Sith Order so it all worked out in the end. He was a never a Jedi or a Sith. But at the same time too, Mace had no business killing the Chancellor when he had no proof of anything, just like Anakin was wrong to kill Count Dooku.

 

I'd say he had proof by the time he moved to kill instead of arrest. It wouldn't be enough for the legal system(unless being a Sith is illegal, which I've heard conflicting information on) but it's enough for proof that he is in fact a Sith, and a Sith being in control of the Republic is too dangerous.

 

Anakin gave Mace the Legal way out of the situation. Sith or not, the Legal thing to do was arrest him because of the position he held.

Anakin wasnt concerned with any legal issues but personal issues.

Despite having the moral right to kill the Sith, Mace was not the one to execute the Chancellor.

Then who was suppose to do it?Oh thats right Anakin but he cant because he is too fearful and selfish to see the bigger picture which is Palps is a threat to him and his marriage and guess what he failed.

It was Palpatine's scheme that triggered it all, selfishness aside, Anakin instantly reacted to the threat on the CHANCELLOR first, then questioned it after the Sith killed Mace.


No Anakin reacted to his own dreams of saving Padme go down the drain, he wasnt concerned with Palps but concerned with a secret to stop death and what was anakin even doing going to the chancellor, did he not hear his wife call out his name during the scene in which he was contemplating his choice?

 

What is a Jedi?

What is a failure of a Jedi?

What is a success of a Jedi?

I think it's just as it is with us, your actions are key.

Yes Anakin fell to the Dark Side but he did a lot for the Jedi and the Republic before his fall. Then he saved the galaxy after his fall which is good for him because he fell off real hard.

 

Then why did he admonish Master Windu about his decision to execute the Chancellor? He specifically told Mace that his desire to kill Palpatine was: "not the Jedi way..."

The Jedi served the Republic, not the other way around. Palpatine was able to weave his way into the fabric of the Republic. The Jedi failed to adapt and are the ones to blame for the fall of the republic, their arrogance in believing that: "the Sith could never return withou them knowing" is the perfect example of their shortcomings.

The Jedi have no-one to blame but themselves for the corruption that surrounded them. Their lack of vigilance was their undoing. Qute simply they became fat-cats. I agree that Anakin's choices were his own, but the combined influence of Palpatine's manipulations and the Jedi's apparent double standard, certainly held sway.

No. Anakin reacted to Mace acting above the Law of the Republic, and of course Palpatine's goading. Anakin walked in there without a weapon in his hand, and gave Mace the right advice, even if that advice was for selfish reasons, it still was the legally correct thing to do. If Mace hadn't been so attached to the Republic, perhaps he could have unraveled the mystery of the Sith before he ever got on that Gunship...

That is why the Jedi failed Anakin more than he failed them. The Jedi Order did nothing for nearly a thousand years, and you want Anakin's 13 years of Jedi experience to weigh more than the millenium that they wasted? No way. Anakin was a mess for sure, but his faults were nothing more than extensions of the shortcomings of the entire Jedi Order. It's easy to blame it all on Anakin, but what about the previous 987 years of complacency?

 

No. Anakin reacted to Mace acting above the Law of the Republic, and of course Palpatine's goading. Anakin walked in there without a weapon in his hand, and gave Mace the right advice, even if that advice was for selfish reasons, it still was the legally correct thing to do. If Mace hadn't been so attached to the Republic, perhaps he could have unraveled the mystery of the Sith before he ever got on that Gunship...


You must dislike Mace very much.

Yes, I believe that he had made a mistake in trying to kill Palpatine. He should have never tried to arrest Palpatine in the first place. But the latter had made a mistake in attacking the Jedi, instead of simply surrendering and giving the Senate the opportunity to exonerate him and make the Jedi look like fools. And Anakin should have stayed put, as Mace had ordered him to. If anyone was truly selfish in that scene, it was Anakin. His protests against Mace killing Palpatine was nothing more than an act to hide his real reason for keeping Palpatine alive . . . to save Padme. He even admitted it, following Mace's death.


Was Anakin a failure as a Jedi? Probably. Personally, I couldn't care less. I don't think it was important for Anakin to become a Jedi. Anakin's real failure was allowing his inner darkness to overwhelm him and rob his individuality.


I have a question. Why do so many fans use Mace's attempt to kill Palpatine as a reason to bash his character, yet are willing to make excuses for Yoda's later attempt to kill the Sith Lord?

 

Nope. Actually, Master Windu is one of my favorite PT era Jedi.
He trails only Quinlan Vos and Qui-Gon in my book.

The only mistake that was made was when the Jedi ignited their weapons. That, was the moment that turned them into vigilantes. Palpatine had them when he said: "Are you threatening me?" It was all over before it even started for the Posse.

Anakin should have done a lot of things differently, but then again so should the Jedi. I have already alluded to Anakin's hidden agenda, I still think he reacted to Mace without really thinking.

It wasn't an admission: "What have I done?"
That, was a man lamenting what just happened.
He was full of regret until Sidious stood up and spoke of destiny... the rest is ROTS history.

 

from where i am sitting all the PT jedis were a failure one way or another, they were all arrogant, self righteous, narrow minded, and very easily manipulated as a result. being that Anakin was more a student than a teacher at this point in the saga i would say little of the failure was his, look at his so called role models. while i am sure many would disagree with my stance, early in the thread it was posted that the "principals" of a jedi would be the yardstick by which failure would be measured. that being the case i find it more challenging to illustrate when any of them actually was successful

 

It was arrogance, but the Sith had been gone for a thousand years and they thought they had seen them destroyed. It's not exactly ludicrous for them to believe that they would sense the Sith in the Force(since we know from Episode 3 that Yoda can sense things from across the galaxy as shown by Order 66.) They were wrong, but they moved to correct their errors by trying to destroy the Sith when they found them.

Anakin's advice was correct from a legal standpoint but not from a moral standpoint. Luke(I think) summed up the Jedi's perspective when it comes to laws vs. justice fairly well in Betrayal

"Jedi are among the most pragmatic beings in the galaxy. We tend to operate under the assumption that it's better to get things done than to observe all the niceties-we consider justice to be of more consequence than law, for instance."

There's also that if the Jedi refused to break the law, they could never have helped the Rebellion topple the Empire in the OT.

It wasn't complacency given that the Sith made no movements that the Jedi had anyway of knowing about until just prior to The Phantom Menace(though all who saw that died.) The first major move the Sith made as Sith, was in Episode 1, at which point the Jedi are made perfectly aware of the fact that the Sith are still alive. Yoda also had significant misgivings about the Chancellor as far back as Episode 2(based on the look he gives Palpatine in his office) but, the Jedi can't arrest someone over a "bad feeling." They needed proof and Palpatine was smart enough to cover h

 

Qui-Gon: Re-discovering the ability to become a Force Ghost, training Yoda to commune with Force Ghosts, being able to see that Anakin was the Chosen One, facing his death with no fear or regret.

Obi-Wan: Training Anakin into a Jedi,resisting the Dark Side against Maul, getting a seat on the Jedi Council, growing from a headstrong Padawan into a calm Jedi Master.

Yoda: Learning to commune with Force Ghosts, accepting the destruction of the Order and realizing that the Jedi must go into hiding until the time is right to train Luke

Edit: I do think that for most of the Prequels Anakin was a good hero, but there's a difference between the two.[/quote]

while i see many of the things you mentioned as acomplishments, we are talking about the PT here and not the big picture. things like getting a seat on the council or becoming a calm jedi master are more like merrit badges or self congradjulatory pats on the back. training Anakin, yeah that worked out well. Yodas acceptance of the jedis fall...its like having your spouse die..2 options, accept it and move on or kill yourself, so mad props to Yoda for not killing himself. and if i had a choice between seeing Qui-gon learn to Force ghost or be alive and maybe a better master for the chosen one, well id go with the latter

again many factors like the force ghost thing play a larger role in the entire saga but being as we are talking PT here i am going to say they are all pretty much failures and Anakin suffered his shortcomings because of it

 

while i see many of the things you mentioned as acomplishments, we are talking about the PT here and not the big picture. things like getting a seat on the council or becoming a calm jedi master are more like merrit badges or self congradjulatory pats on the back. training Anakin, yeah that worked out well. Yodas acceptance of the jedis fall...its like having your spouse die..2 options, accept it and move on or kill yourself, so mad props to Yoda for not killing himself. and if i had a choice between seeing Qui-gon learn to Force ghost or be alive and maybe a better master for the chosen one, well id go with the latter

again many factors like the force ghost thing play a larger role in the entire saga but being as we are talking PT here i am going to say they are all pretty much failures and Anakin suffered his shortcomings because of it[/quote]

Obi-Wan becoming a calm Jedi Master however demonstrates that he infact stuck to the Code given that "There is no Passion, there is serenity." part of the Code.

You're right that Yoda accepting the Jedi's fall is similar to your spouse dying. It's a place where Yoda succeeded by remaining in the Light, whereas Anakin became twisted and evil.

I also don't think Qui-Gon would have been a better master for Anakin. He focused too much on the moment, just like most of the Order focused to much on the future. The OT Jedi which seem to place equal emphasis on both are the ones who end up being right.

The Force Ghost stuff doesn't play a big role in the Prequels, but it does indicate that they achieved complete selflessness, which is of course important to the Code.

 

touche Master Skywalker, while i don't agree with everything you posted, you make great points

i am now currently rethinking my life =D

good post

 

You know what transpired after Ruusan?
The Jedi IGNORED the warning that the Sith were not all destroyed?
Had they been more vigilant 850 years earlier...

I have stated the same thing a million times, legally Anakin was correct, but Mace held the moral high ground. I have stayed out of the post ROTJ EU stuff.

The Sith Wars on the other hand...

I have never defended Yoda, so I can only speculate that Mace gets bashed because Anakin made the comment about the Jedi way to do things. After the Temple massacre, I can't see how anybody would kick sand in Yoda's grill...

 

What warning?

I'm pretty much the exact opposite.

Thanks

 

This is an excellent topic. IMHO Anakin's failure(s) as Jedi are the failure(s) of the Jedi Order itself. For many of the reasons everyone has already mentioned (arrogance, complacency, short sightedness). I had a thought regarding Anakin's "failure" and would it have been compounded if he had a padawan. Would they even give Anakin a padawan?

 

"What warning?"

---

Around 188 BBY, during the Dark Jedi Conflict, Kibh Jeen told the Jedi that the Sith had survived and were operating under the Rule of Two, though his warnings were ignored or passed off as the rantings of a madman.


***
The new Legacy comics rock, btw.

 

They do. I also don't find the fact that they wouldn't listen to someone who had been driven to the Dark Side and who murdered his own master to necessarily be arrogance.

 

It seems to me that many fans find it hard to accept the fact that the Jedi in the Prequel Trilogy were flawed or had made mistakesk. I get the feeling that many prefer to maintain the belief - which was shattered by ROTJ, by the way - that the Jedi Masters and Knights were not only selfless, but flawless and blameless of any mistakes. This reminds me of the fans who prefer to view Anakin as Vader from ANH and the first half of TESB as the "icon of evil", instead of the complex character that he turned out to be.

 

This reminds me of the fans who prefer to view Anakin as Vader from ANH and the first half of TESB as the "icon of evil", instead of the complex character that he turned out to be.

Well him choking his wife nearly to death and slaughtering younglings didnt exactly help his reputationn as Vader.


That is why the Jedi failed Anakin more than he failed them. The Jedi Order did nothing for nearly a thousand years, and you want Anakin's 13 years of Jedi experience to weigh more than the millenium that they wasted? No way. Anakin was a mess for sure, but his faults were nothing more than extensions of the shortcomings of the entire Jedi Order. It's easy to blame it all on Anakin, but what about the previous 987 years of complacency?


Well did anyone tell Anakin to go and choke his wife nearly to death and cause her to die of a broken heart,did anyone tell Anakin to go out and lead a temple raid all for the sake of stopping someone from dying. I am not saying the Jedi are perfect but Anakin destroying the marriage and Padme was his fault not the Jedis'.

 

So in the immortal words of the iconic ESB/ U.S.B.B.M.R.-Vader ((Ultra-Bombad-Before-Midichlorian-Rubbish-Vader)):

"They Jedi were as clumsy as they were stupid..." for NOT verifying the information. They discounted Kib. How much more arrogant could they be? We are talking about the Sith. What allegiance did the dark Jedi owe the Sith? None was established nor refuted, so why wouldn't check to make sure? The Jedi failed Anakin long before he was born.

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You are right Ram, TESB Vader was the "icon of evil".
ANH Vader was simply "bad to the bone" cool... I was only five, all I knew is my Father told me Mr. Vader beat his old teacher. He didn't quite get the Darth thing. Still doesn't...

I got whupped a few times over the next few summers and falls for breaking broom and rake handles across the maple trees in our front yard.

I did say he was a mess. And Anakin didn't choke anybody, nor did he kill younglings. He was consumed by the dark side the moment he swore to serve Palpy. Sure he struggled with his decisions, but it was Darth Vader who met his wife on that platform, only after putting on Anakin's face. His whole act was a front to manipulate her, to control her. The balance of his persona shifted when had marched on the temple, the rage that ensued... it flooded him. He was addicted to power and the dark side fed upon that. There was a part of Anakin left for sure, but not enough to turn back. Mustafar and CIS slaughter sent him to the brink, seeing kenobi with his wife only watered and fertilized the seed Sidious planted right before sending him to the catch the Jedi off balance.

Yoda was right, he was gone... gone until his son reached him in away no else ever could.

 

Excellent call. Growing up with the OT, that's exactly how I felt: Vader was this bad mother in a black suit of armor who could choke people out or dangle them in the air by their esophogus. The Jedi were perfect and could do no wrong...Now having the PT saga has shown me the many layers of the Jedi & the Sith, good versus evil, right versus wrong, point of view versus point of view. And just like you mentioned, the complexity of the characters...how flawed the Jedi actually were.

 

Well, I don't know who made mista kesk, but I think Darth Plagueis made mista Anakin.

In what way did ROTJ "shatter" the idea that the Jedi were selfless?