Was Anakin Skywalker a failure as a Jedi in the Prequels?

There was a part of Anakin left for sure, but not enough to turn back. Mustafar and CIS slaughter sent him to the brink, seeing kenobi with his wife only watered and fertilized the seed Sidious planted right before sending him to the catch the Jedi off balance.

Yoda was right, he was gone... gone until his son reached him in away no else ever could.

Yeah but whose fault was that?Also like Lucas said in the documentary Anakin knew Padme would never condone his actions at the temple so this notion that he was Darth Vader was hardly the case.Like the ROTS novel said there was never any Darth Vader always Anakin Skywalker. Also it was Anakin's fault for even letting Sidious pump his head full of lies that leading a temple raid would somehow bring security to Padme and the marriage that was a very stupid Anakin move

 

Uh...the Jedi were flawed, and I don't deny it. I just don't view their flaws to have been the source of Anakin's fall.

There's also been absolutely nothing that shatters the idea that the Jedi are selfless, it just shattered the idea that they were infallible, which I don't claim them to be. If they were infallible they would have seen Palpatine coming, which they of course didn't.

The fact that you fault them for not listening to information from someone who as far as they know is the equivalent of a mental patient betrays your own biases.

The Jedi aren't perfect, but they're also no where near as bad as the Sith, which seems it seems to me is how you view them.

 

In a sense, Anakin was a failure to the jedi order.

He lacked the ability to demish his attatchments and the influence they had on his conscience.
He had compassion until the anger within him overflowed.
He became more and more power hungry, and he became too headstrong. He thought that his abilities would guarantee him a Master and a place on the council, when he still lacked the control and obidience to even be a Knight at the time.

He wasn't true to himself, Anakin thought he was write to be offended by the placement on the council but not the mastery which it holds. He believes that he deserves to be a master even though he was just knighted a little less than a year before ROTS. He apologizes to Obi Wan about his behaviour to seem more mature and calm. In many ways, Anakin is still a whiny padawan in ROTS... He's still thinking everything is unfair and because he's known as the chosen one he should get whatever he wants. Greed.

 

Well, he kinda became a Sith. I think that constitutes as failure.

Not that the Jedi wern't currupt and flawed - they became generals in the Clone Wars, fighting in attack not defense, and made themselves puppets of Palpy up to ROTS.

 

as much as i dont like to play the blame game i am going to anyways...Anakin was a student during all this, so i would say the ones who set that example for him are at fault, you can quote all the scripture you want as a jedi master, but its your actions that are going to teach the student. "the force is used for defense" his teacher says..."now lets go invade that planet". lots of examples in the PT like this. spying on the chancellor, deciet at its finest, "but we are in a time of war" is the reasoning, congrats, you have just dropped to the same level as your enemy.

edit: having said that, did Anakin really "fall" to the darkside, being that the jedi and sith were both on the same moral playingfield, or did he just switch sides mid game. it may not be noble, but theres something to be said for a guy who can see the winning team and places his bets accordingly

edit2:sorry but i was thinking, Anakin is like the guy who rapes/pillages/plunders his whole life, repents on his death bed and gets rewarded for it, he in fact was on the winning team the entire saga...that sends a great message to our kids

 

I agree completely that this is a hell of a lot of lip service going on with the Jedi Code by the Jedi during the PT era. Really, as far as I can tell, the Jedi treat the Code as very elastic when he seems to have been structured quite rigid. Was Anakin ever a Jedi? I'm not sure. Where the Jedi ever Jedi? I'm not sure either. Anakin basically put the Order on his back (and Republic) during the clone wars so he did a lot of good stuff. But he used the dark side a lot too. So what does that mean? He does report that the Chancellor is a Sith to place, because he feels it's the right thing to do. Then while sitting in the Council Chambers, he lets the fear of loss and his atachments get the best of him and runs off to save a Sith Lord. Then you see him crying a couple of times after he's become Darth Vader. He's knows what he has done is wrong, but at heart, he's greedy, selfish and fearful. Those aren't traits that the Jedi Code would agree with. But then you have Mace attempting to asassinate the Chancellor because of his own fear of loss. As a whole, the Jedi were failures during the PT.

 

WORD....good response and not just cus i agree with you =P

i have also said(in this thread or another not sure)what makes the use of an emotion bad, any emotion. the jedi sure can use compassion and desire for peace to kill folks, so why cant someone use anger or despair to save a friend. we have alot of Obi fanboys here, and i recall Anakin using anger to kill Dooku, and save Obis life as a result, then tell the chancellor "his fate will be the same as ours" that rocked. just cus Yoda doesnt have game enuf to control his anger and use it to his benefit, does it have to be bad.

 

The Jedi were arguably acting in defense of the Republic, given that the Sepratists were begining to ramp up their war machines and had plans to invade the Republic.

There is. It says he's an opportunist with no moral center, which is no better than someone like Palpatine. The Jedi also aren't on the same moral playingfield as the Sith, not by a long shot.

Doesn't it? It's why I wish Lucas had made it turn out that the true Chosen One and the true hero, was Luke as he sticks by his morals and principals throughout the entire series.

The fact that Anakin became the posterboy for the Jedi and the Republic throughout the Clone Wars is why I think there's little argument that can be made that Anakin wasn't a hero throughout the Clone Wars. I do agree that Anakin in the Prequels at least knows at some level what he's done after his turn is wrong, but that some of his negative and baser attributes stop him from turning back(though I'd add the Dark Side's ability to twist one's mind to that.)

I however don't believe that Mace was attempting to kill Palpatine because of his fear of loss. I believe he was trying to kill Palpatine for a few reasons including that Palpatine is a Sith, and the Jedi have as the films themselves note, sworn to destroy the Sith, Palpatine was attempting to establish an Empire, and that Palpatine had caused the Clone Wars when they wouldn't happened otherwise.

 

Well first of all Anakin/Vader definetely doesn't get rewarded for it. He gets Power yes, but his lives in torment and evil because of it. Sort of like Satan he rebels against God and get's power but ulitmatly he suffers and is doomed.


Second Luke is the true hero. The Saga is in two parts Anakins story and Luke's story. A hero falls and a hero rises. Two heroes, two destinies.


George say's the Saga is about Vader, which it is, but the Protagonists and heroes are mainly Luke and Obi Wan.

 

He does, and the fact that he's redeemed by the end does work, since the Jedi accepting someone who attones for his crimes(especially someone who destroys the Sith while he's attoning) does make sense.

True, I overlooked the latter part that even officially the heroes of the Saga are still Luke and Obi-Wan, with Anakin only even being a protagonist in the Prequels.

 

heck of a response....really made me take a second look at my initial post =)

the one thing i had a problem with (listed above), making a premptive strike based on what someone mite do is wrong on so many levels as far as the jedi are concerned. no matter how you phrase it or what argument is used to say it was in defense of the republic, it just doesnt fly.

i have also heard the argument about TPM occupation of Naboo, but that was only a trade blockade until the republic sent some jedi to "force a settlement"

 

Anakin is redeemed through a final act of compassion. In most religions, repenting for your sins is a very positive message. In certain Western religions, there's the concept of confession where one confesses their sins and thus will be forgiven for them. In Anakin's case, Obi-wan and Yoda both forgive Anakin for his crimes. As an act of compassion, they help him to retain his identity so that he can see his children together. And so that Luke will know that his father made it fully back from the dark side.

 

you make a good argument about repentance, but among the many flaws i see in western religion, that is just one...it implies and teaches that intention is more important than action. and while i find eastern religion to be just as wild in its assumptions, that is one of many areas where it is almost polar opposite.

i also think you are making a big leap here, while we do see there ghosts standing together all buddy buddy at the end, and while Yoda and Obi seem to have forgiven him, your assumption is that there forgiveness was in someway required for his salvation, or that they piggybacked him into grace as a good deed. i find this view implies that to the Force, Yoda is more important than a tree or a rock, and he somehow has influence or pull when it comes to who is saved and who isnt, or that it even matters. perhaps the empoerer is there too, but he doesnt really like Luke and didnt want to drop in. these are all very Judeo-Christian constructs that you have applied through no fault of your own, as Qui-Gonn says "your focus determines your reality"(my favorite saying by the way)

 

Qui-Gon however also says(in the script, novel, and comic) "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed." and "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self" so, Palpatine simply couldn't have become a Force Spirit as he doesn't have a complete selflessness, as Obi-Wan, Yoda, and in the end Anakin do.

It also supports the idea that the Jedi weren't wrong in theory on their attatchment rules, as does the fact that Anakin's attatchment made him fall.

 

while i see your position in the matter, those quotes are spoken everywhere but the movies which are the only thing i have experienced, so i cannot debate them either way.

however i see your example that selflessness is required to be a Force spirit,and while this may or may not be true,i find it supports my argument that intention is more important than action,which in my opinion is opposing all the jedi teachings. all 3 of these guys screw the pooch for an entire saga and rite before they die they do something selfless, and now its gravy. as i said there is a Judeo-Christian ideal lurking here, and that would be okay were it not for the entire philosophy that the jedi live by, which is in fact not reward based. we hear the teaching about loosing yourself of attachments, but i can be greedy and sleep with women, and try to conquer the galaxy, but before i die i do something "good" and the Force will reward me.

creating a society of characters who live there lifes by a very Taoist philosophy, but have a very Christain afterlife, is not only philosophically irresponsible, but its having your cake and eating it too.

lots of debates go on about good/evil, and a deeper meaning behind the star wars saga, but if one is to take a look, i think its more about taking nifty quotes from Republic/Symposuim/Tao te Ching/Bible/Koran/Hidden Leaves/5 Rings/Yellow Emporers etc etc....and finding the best one for the best situation and running with it.

ahh well the rantings of a madman

 

Anakin is absolutely a failed Jedi; he has little or no self control, thinks his lightsaber is the first and best solution to problems, and believes he's entitled to masterhood despite his inexperience. He is a total loose cannon, and I blame the Jedi Council for a) allowing his status as the Chosen One to become public knowledge, and b) not reigning him in in the early stages of his training. The dangerous instability that resulted from the loss of his mother could have been repaired with time and compassion, but the council seemed more interested in unleashing him against the Separatists. Needless to say, they reaped the whirlwind.

 

Nevermind, too late. Sorry

 

Anakin ye olde opportunist, I tell ya

 

This is what I have been saying since I started posting in this thread!!
Anakin is the one everybody wants to dump on for "failing" the Jedi Order, but I totally disagree! It wasn't like the dude got trained since birth, I mean a thousand years of arrogance and self-absorbtion by an organization should not be held over the head of one man.

 

Obi-wan and Yoda had long ago forgiven Anakin for everything he had done and will ever do as Vader. That is the way of the Jedi. To have compassion for their fellow man, regardless of what that person does. As Lucas says, the Jedi are supposed to love everyone. Even the Sith. As to helping Anakin to retain his identity, that was an act of compassion. This was for their friend and for Luke. They think of him rather than about past grievences. Palpatine cannot retain his identity because he is selfish, manipulative, greedy and overall an evil being.

In the (ROTJ) rough draft?Ben explains that?if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Lorenzo Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

 

I just don't see any evidence for that given that all of the Jedi who stick by the Code don't fall to the Dark Side. It's only those who stray from the Code(Dooku/Anakin) who fall. Luke also received training very similar in that the Code seems to still basically be there, but a stripped down version of it, and he didn't fall.

 

It's why I wish Lucas had made it turn out that the true Chosen One and the true hero, was Luke as he sticks by his morals and principals throughout the entire series.


Why should Luke be the Chosen One? It sounds as if you believe that he's some kind of "knight-in-shinning armor" moral wise, or the "ideal" Jedi Knight. And he wasn't Luke, in his own way, was just as flawed as his father. Only luckier, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see why the Chosen One has to be some morally perfect hero. It sounds like . . . something from a children's fairy tale. Some individuals - regardless of their moral state - have a way of influencing the world around them, bringing about an impact that is either good, bad or both.

And then there are those who declare Anakin a failure as a Jedi, as if it was some final declaration of his character. I don't think that it should be. I don't think we should be concerned about whether he was a failure or success as a Jedi. Being a Jedi should not have been the epitome of Anakin's nature or true self. What was important to me was that Anakin had failed his true Self by the end of ROTS. And by the end of ROTJ, he managed to reverse that failure and finally set upon the road of discovering his true Self through his connection to the Force.

 

I'd say it's more than luck, with a large part of it being that Luke was raised away from the influence of a Sith Lord. Luke also was less selfish overall than Anakin was. However, they do share many of the same flaws such as recklessness.

Star Wars is in many ways a fairly tale-esque series. I think Mark Hamill summed it up nicely

"It's got everything a good fairy-tale would have, a pirate, princess, a wizard, a farm boy -- and some lovable robots. It's amazed me that people have kept it alive in their hearts and minds."

Now, it does work having Anakin be the Chosen One(given that he is) but if Anakin is supposed to be the hero of the series(which I don't think he is, but it's plausible given that he's the protagonist) I find him sorely lacking.

Anakin also has finally become the Jedi he 'should be' by the end of Jedi. He's embraced selflessness(as shown by the fact that he sacfices himself to save his son as well as his becoming a Force Ghost.)

 

Wow, that was good, RamRed. Excellent! "above all to thine own self be true". Dang that sounds awful familiar....

 

I'd say it's more than luck, with a large part of it being that Luke was raised away from the influence of a Sith Lord. Luke also was less selfish overall than Anakin was. However, they do share many of the same flaws such as recklessness.



Do you know why I find this hard to believe? Because Luke became so dangerously close into becoming a Sith Lord . . . despite his upbringing. And in his own way, Luke was as selfish as Anakin. Only Palpatine's big mouth saved him from being destroyed by his own selfishness and his tendency to cling to Han and especially Leia.


Anakin also has finally become the Jedi he 'should be' by the end of Jedi. He's embraced selflessness(as shown by the fact that he sacfices himself to save his son as well as his becoming a Force Ghost.)

One does not have to be a Jedi to embrace "selflessness" - a term I do not believe in, anyway. Nor do I believe that one has to be a Jedi to become one with the Force.


Anakin is the one everybody wants to dump on for "failing" the Jedi Order, but I totally disagree!

I must agree with you. Yes, Anakin did contribute to the Order?s destruction. But he and Palpatine were not alone. They had help.

Star Wars is in many ways a fairly tale-esque series. I think Mark Hamill summed it up nicely

"It's got everything a good fairy-tale would have, a pirate, princess, a wizard, a farm boy -- and some lovable robots. It's amazed me that people have kept it alive in their hearts and minds."

Now, it does work having Anakin be the Chosen One(given that he is) but if Anakin is supposed to be the hero of the series(which I don't think he is, but it's plausible given that he's the protagonist) I find him sorely lacking.


Sounds like Mark Hamill is describing A NEW HOPE, only. Because the rest of the saga strikes me as being more than some simple fairy tale. I?m sorry if Anakin doesn?t live up to your idea of what a hero is supposed to be, but I guess that I?m not inclined to worship perfect or nearly perfect types, whether in real life or in fiction. One of the reasons why I like both Luke and Anakin is that neither are perfect or nearly perfect. They are flawed men who had to endure a lot of personal struggle.