Was Darth Maul a true Rule of Two Sith?

No, you're missing the point. If you want to discuss Maul being a Rule of Two Sith, you have to discuss him being a Rule of Two Sith. Not "DarthMRN's idea of a Rule of Two Sith." When your entire argument rests on everyone accepting your definition, it stops becoming a discussion thread and just becomes one guy preaching his interpretation of facts and demanding everyone else accede to him. It warps things from being a discussion based in canon to a soapbox for DarthMRN's personal canon.

So, if this is just one great big unproductive vanity thread, it will get locked.

 

In case you missed it DarthMRN, Maul's MASTER said this:

End of redundant discussion.

 

Dont you think your answer to my question justifies the reasoning behind Maul's actions then? The difference between Maul & Vectivus is that:-

1) Maul appeared in the movie so we get to see him " in action etc" & satisfy our visual curiosity.

2) That book on Maul. I have it. I read it. Just forgot the title atm.

3) Even after watching him in the movie & reading his journal we still know nothing much of the Zabrak Sith apprentice.

Agreed?

The only complete Rule of 2 Sith characters in the SW universe ( Im sure you agree with me) is only of Bane, Zannah, Sidious & Vader.


PS Zor - Thanx for the reply but I was asking DarthRMN!

PS Tricky - Lol! Thanx for the heads up towards him!

 

My 2 credits.

1. Darth Maul Journal

I think Darth Maul HATED Darth Sidious. He wasn't loyal in the slightest from what Darth Maul's Journal says. Darth Maul's "Sith Trials" for lack of a better term were entirely about Darth Sidious attacking him with the full intent of killing him until Maul turned around and started attacking him with hatred in his heart. Darth Maul lost any parental feeling that day for Darth Sidious as undoubtedly Sidious intended.

2. Darth Maul's Age

It's been mentioned that Darth Maul is pretty young. Assuming the same age as Ray Park, then Darth Maul was twenty-five at the time of his death. This seems fairly consistent with what we see on the screen. Darth Tyrannus was in his eighties. Darth Maul plotting against Darth Sidious actively would be incredibly stupid because he's a newly knighted Sith Lord for all intents and purposes. It's like Anakin Skywalker wanting to be on the Jedi Council at 23 (oh wait).

There's plenty of time for Darth Maul to start learning things like playing one's enemies against one another. I remind people that Bane picked that up pretty fast as an uneducated miner.

Darth Zannah saved Bane's life because she hadn't gotten all the goody Evil Magical InfoTM out of her Daddy-Figure.

3. Darth Maul's Failure

Still, I agree that it's entirely possible that Darth Maul was a failure in Darth Sidious' estimation. Certainly, he said as much in Darth Maul's journal after Darth Maul DIED on his second mission involving Jedi Knights (excluding Tales as canon). Darth Sidious is a tremendously hard act to follow and Darth VADER was a failure in Darth Sidious' opinion because Darth Vader was never able to reach Sidious' level of power.

However, as long as Ressurection is canon, apparently Palpatine was willing to give Maul another chance at being his apprentice.

4. Count Dooku's Failure

Count Dooku was the one who never intended to overthrow Darth Sidious, at least if Revenge of the Sith the novelization is any indication. Count Dooku, despite being roughly the same age as Darth Sidious, was seemingly quite content in his position and envisioning himself as the perpetual right hand man of the Emperor. He never apparently saw himself wearing the Crown. I think that he actually had too much Jedi training in him. The fact he saw himself as leader of a Sith army and had covertly started training Ventress as his apprentice along with desiring Obi Wan to be his Sith apprentice just highlights how messed up he really was (in terms of the Rule of Two).

Palpatine was willing to have Dooku at his side if he killed Vader but I'm certain that, had Dooku won, that Palpatine would have immediately started scouting someone like Jerec or the Secret Apprentice.

I think Dooku is a total and complete titanic failure of a Sith Apprentice on every conceivable level. He not only broke the Rule of Two by training Ventress in Sith tatooing and other aspects of the Dark Side but he also was genuinely interested in becoming head of a New Sith Order.

It's bizarre.

 

That along with the character doesnt suit the Darth moniker... ( Tyranny, what tyranny? ) & my all time opinion that Sidious' 2nd apprentice should've been a hawt, young lady. Sexy bod, sexy look, sexy everything. Think of Zannah but a brunette.

When you have an old dude that has a lame name like Tyranus... pffftttt...

well...

 

So when the rules say these forums are based upon Holocron continuity, that means discussions have to be made purely from definitions that we have continuity proof for? Well, I can certainly see that. If everyone was allowed to just redefine, in a fandom such as ours, that would get quite chaotic. That doesn't qualify as a flaw in my reasoning, so I can surely live with it.

Am I encouraged to send you a PM whenever I see a discussion where no canonical standard is set for whether something qualifies for something, then?

Hmm. I must say my detractors have begun to choose rather rethorical definitions to argue from, so I must serioulsy question how much more use this thread is to me. It seems to has devolved into "my-opinion-as-fact flimflammery" on everyone's part, and thus probably should be locked.


I'll just take care of the remaining posts first.

That must be the most useless part of the quote in question you could have chosen. Even my original page 1 quote has Maul plan on taking an apprentice of his own if/when Sids dies. Quigs telling Obi he will train a Padawan of his own someday doesn't require Obi to slay Quigs frist. Why? Because we have no proof for Quigs teachings encouraging that. Why should Maul be treated differently?

Approaching complete? Yeah, I can see where you are coming from. Maul definitely falls in a lesser league.

But we still have several mediums told from his POV, complete with thoughts and memories. And even a personal Journal. And they are all chock full of indications and cirumcstantial evidence that Maul had no intention of supplanting Sids. And a glaring lack of indications for the contrary. That doesn't mean a future source can't come along and turn everything around, rendering the discussion moot. But it does mean that we have plenty of evidence to make an educated guess from.

And the scant mentions and encyclopaedic entries we have on Vivectus can't compare to that. I think it more than reasonable to require a source told from his POV or similar, something to actually show us his thoughts and philosophies in more detail, before making such a call. With Maul, we have those.

A lack of perfect analysis of both character doesn't mean there is no distinction between the info we have on them. Besides, as I said, I haven't done any research on Viv, so for all I know the required info does exist.

 

Oh. I forgot to mention? Sids attacked Maul with a training saber, and proved once Maul started winning that he could have ended the fight at any time. He most certainly did not intend to kill him.

Hardly. What he demonstrably lost, was any anger towards him. And became his instrument. Not to mention that every "real-time" Maul source we have, the ones where he is loyal and loving like a puppy, accepting of every punishment as if it was a gift, was made chronologically after that test.

He was 22, per the EGttF, as Havac already pointed out somewhere. And if the Journal is to be trusted, the Lording test took place "years ago", and implies he was just barely done growing physically. The quote is on the last page for you. I'm guessing 17-19. That still leaves three years at least. He was hardly newly Lorded.

Though I do think that was an unusually young age to Lord someone. But as Maul says, age means nothing to a Sith, and therefore he knew the Lording was a response to his abilities, not his age.

With Maul having 3-5 years (by my estimate), it seems like we are in agreement after all.

Now that is indeed a point. I guess having the Chosen One he had foreseen fall short, lowered his standards.

Oh? I hadn't noticed. Still, the EU steamrolling GL intent and indications? What else is new? (Per presented quote, I mean).

Lucas packs a mean punch in return, though.

Ulicus debunked this on page 1, though. Banites are allowed to give scraps away to attract followers. And him planning on taking a Sith apprentice directly supports his plans to overthrow Sids. Only if you assume he had no such ambitions, does the apprenticeship plans make him a bad RoT.

 

Havac is right.
This thread is nothing more than an exercise in futility.

***

Oh, and great post Charles... sorry to see it go to waste in here.

 

I'd like to discuss whether Darth Tyrannus is a real Sith Lord to be honest. Everything that needs to be said about Darth Maul being an RO2er has been said, though.

I'll drop out of the discussion if its going to be shut down though.

 

It depends on what you think Palpatine wanted. I remind you that if Plagueis DID create Anakin, Palpatine must have been training Darth Maul in secret WHILE HE WAS STILL SERVING PLAGUEIS. In other words, Darth Sidious was actually still a servant of Darth Plaguies when he kidnapped Darth Maul to make him a Sith apprentice as an infant.

Palpatine was probably in his mid-forties to fifties when he finally stabbed Plaguies.

That may just be EU wonkery but I like that, actually. What do you think guys?

Revenge of the Sith was line edited by George Lucas. In other words, to the point that it apparently completely fits his vision of the characters. Darth Tyrannus never intended to overthrow Palpatine as a result.

This isn't all that surprising because Dooku is horrified that Palpatine ordered his death on ROTS.

Ventress isn't a Dark Jedi anymore, but a Genuine Sith apprentice. She has Four Levels of Sith Apprentice according to the WOTC RPG.

Also, there's this from StarWars.com.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/asajjventress/index.html

So Ventress is more than a Scrappie.

 

Can you guys imagine if DarthRMN was a Sith apprentice & asked this question to Sidious... " A you a true RoT Sith?"

Bet Sidious will get a headache. I sure do atm.

 

There was a valid question whether Sidious expected Maul to replace him or not.