Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. cbtark

    cbtark Jedi Youngling

    Nov 24, 2005
    I know this is EU but in Dark Lord it is said the Sith only use lightsabers to humilate the jedi and that the Sith evolved past the lightsaber.
  2. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 8, 2005
    If Yoda was in control of the fight Dooku would have never left that hanger. Dooku ended that fight when he wanted, and got away. Yoda failed to kill, capture, or stop him from leaving the planet. That's a loss. Neither of them scored a hit, and Dooku was not beaten at the time he created the only distraction that would give him enough time to start his ship up.

    I think Yoda would probably have eventually won, if it had been drawn out. But Dooku can compete with Yoda, just like Yoda can compete with Sidious.

    After all, Yoda, Mace, etc. failed to bring him to justice for three whole years and it took Sidious to arrange a situation where he could be offed.
  3. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003
    "After all, Yoda, Mace, etc. failed to bring him to justice for three whole years and it took Sidious to arrange a situation where he could be offed."

    Now that's a brilliant observation, Sabarte.

    OBIWAN-JR Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Oct 25, 2002
    Of course originally, Dooku was to die at the hands of Yoda.

    Lucas spared the Count.

    -JR :)
  5. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 8, 2005
    And as you said - that's just EU! Try tell that humiliating bit to Maul or Dooku...
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Never heard that one.
  7. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003

    If I remember correctly, the end of Sidious's light saber quote was "...if only to humiliate the Jedi."

    Actually, it really has nothing to do with the EU.

    The Sith moved past the use of sabers.

    The films support this line of thinking.

    How else did Sidious reign in the Trade Federation? Did he run around and threaten them by waving his red glow stick? The Jedi spoke of "Aggressive Negotiations", meaning, that they drew their sabers as a show of force. The Sith, no longer relied on their sabers in the same way. They only have a light saber because Jedi carry them, not because they want to wave them around every chance they get. Only arrogant Jedi do that.

    Ultimately, to defeat the ENTIRE JEDI ORDER, the Sith Order evolved and adopted new strategies. The Jedi Order remained stagnant.

    I think the humiliation quote, was intended more like this: "To beat the Jedi with their weapon of choice, a light saber, is the greatest way to humiliate them..."

    The Sith didn't need to use light sabers to overtake the galaxy like the Jedi used light sabers to defend it...

    Oh, and regarding the topic, Dooku just didn't have both hands on things like he should have. After all, didn't Palpatine tell the two Jedi that they were no match for a Sith Lord? Dooku couldn't handle Anakin, who was just scratching the surface of his anger, how could he have handled his own purely evil Master?

    WEEBACCA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Mar 4, 2004
    I agree. Dooku has no chance to beat Sidious. Sidous is way too powerful. But when it comes to pure lightsaber combat (no force-powers allowed) I think Dooku would give Sidious a fair challenge.
  9. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 8, 2005
    Wow, this big post and absolutely no substance to what you say. No place in the films do we even get a glimpse of what you argue here... How come the Sith attack the Jedi with lightsabers then? You can't use the EU when it's not explicit in the movies as well..

    I'll give you credit for the non-lightsaber use in Palpatine for the majority of his plans... however - he would not have survived without it - he drew against Mace and lost... he drew agains Yoda, and it didn't seem he could compete with him either with a saber
  10. Haynesworth

    Haynesworth Jedi Youngling

    Dec 5, 2005
    Everyone says Sidious beat Yoda because Yoda failed to kill him and had to flee. Also, Sidious was going to call reinforcement clone troopers in. But if that's the way it works, than Dooku lost because he failed to beat or kill Yoda and he ended up fleeing. Clones were also on their way to aid Yoda. It is the same situation, so if Sidious beat Yoda because he ended up fleeing, then Yoda beat Dooku because he ended up fleeing.
  11. Count-Tyranus

    Count-Tyranus Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jul 7, 2005
    You are ignoring the fact that Yoda and Dooku's intent before the battles occured were very different.

    Yoda aimed to kill Sidious. That was his goal. He failed.

    Dooku needed to get off Geonosis, he did, despite the best efforts of three of the more powerful Jedi.
  12. Haynesworth

    Haynesworth Jedi Youngling

    Dec 5, 2005
    Well if you are looking at their goal, then yes, Dooku did succeed and Yoda did fail. But if Dooku was more powerful than Yoda, wouldn't he have been able to beat him, instead of distracting him with Anakin and Obi-Wan to allow himself to escape. I think that while Yoda and Sidious were clearly on the same level, Sidious bested him, and the same would be true for Yoda and Dooku. I think Sidious>Yoda>Dooku, but it's pretty close, and we did not see enough to make a true judgement.
  13. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003

    Wow, we must NOT be watching the same films...
    Big difference between saber dueling with Jedi, and taking over the Trade Federation without the use of a light saber.

    Sidious drew first against Mace and the Posse? Not in the film I saw.

    Oh, and, Sidious did survive without his 2nd saber. Just because you didn't see him lose it onscreen, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    Come to think of it, Yoda also drew first...

    Makes my first post even stronger... now that I've had a second glimpse.
  14. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    I'd that Dooku is not as strong as Sidious.

    In his fight with Sidious Yoda and Sidious exchange lightning and a force push sending each to opposite sides of the room, which suggests to me that they are equal in their use of the force. This then turns into a saber battle where Yoda is able to disarm Sidious who later is able to disarm Yoda which climaxes with the struggle in the senate pod with the lightning ball which again suggest they are equal with the force.

    Throughout most of the fight both sides were struggling. And at the very beginning neither could block the others' force powers.

    With Dooku it is more ambiguous as to whether or not he held his own against Yoda. It's my interpretation that he was beaten.

    When the battle begins they start showing off their force powers (which for Yoda consists of throwing Dooku's own power back at him and absorbing it).

    Yoda: "Much to learn you still have." (He's confident as ever. Didn't break a sweat).
    Dooku: "It is obvious that this contest can not be decided by our knowledge of the force, but by our skills with a lightsaber." (Dooku's just being arrogant here IMO, I think he really knows that he doesn't stand a chance against Yoda with the force so challenges him to a lightsaber duel because he thinks he'll fair better).

    Yoda enlightens him and pulls out his saber. They fight. It ends with a saber lock:

    Yoda confidently says: "Fought well you have my old padawan." (with "but now its over" implied).

    Dooku (his face quivering, probably in anger and frustration): "This is just the beginning!"

    So, IMO I think that Yoda beat Dooku, that to Yoda it was more as if they were sparring, he knew he could beat Dooku but was just enlightening him and being arrogant, which allowed Dooku to escape.
  15. Obi-Twice-Kenobi

    Obi-Twice-Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Nov 30, 2003
    Yoda's primary goal was NOT to kill Dooku, but rather to arrest him in order to gain further information about the Sith because the Count was keeping essential info about the Sith plans and their involvment in the war. During their battle, the Jedi master was forced to chose between his primary goal and saving his fellow Jedi. Chosing option 2, he had to give his enemy the chance to flee.

    The Sith on the other hand wanted to escape, but also clearly intended to KILL Anakin, ObiWan and Yoda. He achieved his first goal due to Yoda's decision explained above, but obviously failed to achieve the second.

    Yoda aimed to kill Sidious. That was his goal. He failed.

    Obviously. And Sidious failed to kill Yoda as well. But aren't you confusing Ep2 with Ep3 now?

    Dooku needed to get off Geonosis, he did, despite the best efforts of three of the more powerful Jedi.

    True, but not because he was more powerful than Yoda (on the contrary), but because he managed to "outwit" the Jedi. Had this been a traditional one-on-one without any outside influence, Dooku wouldn't have had the same advantage and opportunity to distract Yoda.

    Here's also an interesting observation regarding Yoda's encounters with the 2 Sith:
    - against Dooku, the two fighters were evenly matched in force powers, but Yoda had the advantage in the lightsaber department.
    - against Siodious, Yoda again had the (slightly) superior LS skills (He managed to disarm the emperor with his saber. Unfortunately this scene was cut from the movie, nevertheless it's still true), but (slightly) lacked the force powers of his enemy.

    As a conslusion, it seems to me that despite the common belief Count Dooku was pretty much equal to his master in LS skills, and Sidious masterhood was based mainly on superior force powers and political genius.
  16. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 23, 2003

    Posted: 12/13 9:18pm
    Subject: "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda"

    "I dont consider it a LOSS. It was more of a stalemate. Yoda decided in his head that lightsaber duel would not defeat Sidious(ROTS Novel) It would takwe something else entirely.....a peaceful path....which allowed Luke to sway Anakin to destroy Sidious in ROTJ.

    As Yoda said in the Novel..... "the Sith had evolved and the Jedi had not". The Sith had learned to use (political) combat as their weapon against the Jedi.

    Arrogance was not Yoda's alone. He realizes his error and is very humble in ESB and ROTJ. The path he led Luke down allowed him to rely on his feelings and intuitions rather than his discipline and knowledge of lighsaber combat.

    Anakin had it all along. The key to the path of the light was not discipline but trust in one's feelings......something the Jedi frowned upon during the end of time of the Republic. Anakin had dark feelings just as Luke did. Yoda's guidance allowed Luke to make his OWN decision based upon HIS feelings....."

    [b]This fits in well enough with this topic...[/b]

  17. Count-Tyranus

    Count-Tyranus Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jul 7, 2005
    I do not think Dooku intended to kill any of those three Jedi in AOTC.

    Killing them was incidental to his escape.

    1. He had warned Obi-Wan to back down and didn't seem too interested in fighting. Of course, after dominating Obi-Wan, he looked as if he would kill him. So maybe he thought better of it and decided Kenobi is better off dead than alive.

    2. He did not intend to kill Anakin. He merely disarmed him (literally), and turned off his sabre at the conlusion of the fight.

    3. Just as Yoda did not intend to kill Dooku, I do not think Dooku intended to kill Yoda. They fought, but without much malice and I think Dooku merely wanted to show off, knock Yoda out of action and get the flock out of there before Mace and a battalion of clones showed up.
  18. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 8, 2005
    Dooku was telegraphing the Obi-Wan thing so hard that you could argue it could be to force the incoming Anakin to block. Especially since, (according to the AOTC novelization and what I can see of the fight) he pulled both prior blows. I think there was also a 'reveal yourself to the Jedi so they're looking for you and not me' order by Sidious involved.
  19. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 28, 2005
    ]how do you define "STRONG" ??

    by their skills ? then maybe dooku is equal

    but by the overall picture ? skills/knowlede/force/raw power dooku is not as strong as sidious

    sidious = the master

    dooku = the servant

    is the same than in the OT, vader didnt rule the galaxy by then because he was too weak to overthrow sidious,the same for dooku,he is no more than cripple vader
  20. Charn

    Charn Jedi Master star 8

    Dec 23, 2004
  21. Lord-Scith

    Lord-Scith Jedi Youngling

    Jan 22, 2006
    Dooku was not as powerful as Sids in my opinion or he probably would have tried to take his place as is Sith tradition.
  22. DS_Emp_Viper

    DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 30, 2001
  23. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jul 24, 2005
    Agreed with the issue of the Sith and the use of lightsabers.

    Just a little question: Does anyone else get irritated by the fact that the prequels have forced us into thinking in terms of sabre skill and Force power?

    "Oh, so and so would win a purely saber fight, but so and so would totally pwn him with the power of the Force"

    Granted, this was always the forum "Blank vs Blank" way of looking at things, but I came from the school of thought that all that mattered to a Jedi was their ability with the Force. After all, you cannot actually *use* a lightsaber without drawing on the Force. Ergo, the most powerful Force practitioners should be the most skilled lightsaber duellists. Therefore, the stronger Force wielder should always beat the weaker Force wielder in a straight out sabre duel. The better you can channel the Force, the better you can use a sabre. Simple.

    When Obi-Wan taught Luke lightsaber basics, there was no "you must use this stance, and tilt you wrists in this way, and consciously channel the Force in this manner and use this style" it was just, "stretch out with your feelings". That was much more elegant and... I dunno, less... technical.

    Urg. I just get so irritated that the supposed "most powerful Sith that there ever was in either EU or the films" got *beaten* by Mace Windu. Therefore I really don't think Palpatine deserves that reputation anymore... greatest, sure - you can't deny the man's accomplishments - but not most powerful. Give that accolade to a Sith that doesn't get kicked in the face.

  24. brook_33

    brook_33 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Dec 30, 2003
    I think that if Sidious was a level 9, then Dooku was a 7.5 or 8.
  25. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Sep 8, 2005
    If the Sith had moved beyond lightsabers it was not a wise choice it seems. Maul was killed by one. Dooku was killed by one. Sideous was defeated by one, only to be rescued by Anakin. The Jedi were actually superior with a saber. The top-Jedi mind you.

    The sith didn't use a saber for their plans because a frontal attack wouldn't do. As Dooku says: "you're greatly outnumbered old friend" well, perhaps not old friend, but still outnumbered. They had to use other tactics. I'm not saying that Palpatine wasn't a great manipulator - he was THE best. He was there at the right place at the right time, much like Hitler was really. It doesn't prove him superior in any way. Vader still has much belief in a Saber. In ROTJ he says that Luke's skills are complete now that he has built his own lightsaber. Vader was a sith. Initially the saber, as I've come to understand it, was a Jedi's weapon, so you can interprete Sideous' words in ROTJ any way really.

    The fact is that all Sith in the saga was actually defeated by a saber (by defeated I do not mean killed however).
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