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PT Was Dooku attempting to overthrow Palpatine with Kenobi's help?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by dorianro, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    No, he just needed to foresee that Obi-Wan would survive. Just as he only needed to foresee that Luke would survive. He didn't need to foresee all the specifics, like that Obi-Wan would continually elude Zam Wesell and Jango Fett, or that Luke would get in a speeder bike chase and outwit his pursuers. Palpatine has been well-established to have such powers of foresight.
     
  2. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    With Endor, The Emperor says at the start of the film "Patience, in time he will seek you out." Both the Jedi Masters and Sith master forsee and encourage this encounter. Emperor Palpatine also senses Luke has grown strong. Perhaps because it is all he sees in Luke; power. And that the battlestation will be ready to fire when Luke is to be tested.

    The Emperor's hubris regarding his blindness to Luke's potential to turn Vader good, is demonstrated by his lack of sensing Luke on Endor. Even though he knew of the Rebels in the stolen Imperial shuttle, and the nearby amassing Rebel Fleet.
    Luke and Vader on the other hand sense each other almost as soon as the Rebel crew are above Endor because their conflicted bond has grown.

    When Vader reports "My son is with them." Palpatine senses nothing.

    [Off topic I love this mirror...
    Anakin (Ep3)/Vader (Ep6) - Anakin/Vader report someone close to them; last Sith Sidious/last Jedi Luke, reported to Vaderkin's respective masters... Mace/The Emperor. But he is conflicted. As both masters point out.
    "Are you sure?" "Absolutely." /
    "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear Lord Vader." "They are clear, my master."]

    "His compassion for you will be his undoing." This almost comes to pass when The Emperor is killing Luke after Luke's mercy, then Vader like Anakin in ep3 joins with the person he is most compassionate to at the final moment, and ends the other's life. Palpatine could sense almost everything - except the potential for compassion in Vader as well.

    Mace was so focused on ending the Sith he didn't see the overflowing turmoil in fellow Jedi Anakin.

    My point is while the Jedi and Sith vision seems falliable, it is still seen in ROTJ serving both the Emperor and Luke on many ocassions. Luke knows Jabba will refuse his offer, and that they are leaving Jabba's syndicate alive. He is proven right about his father even though he didn't know how exactly it would work out.
    And the Emperor's clairvoyance I listed above serving him in quite strong details, basically anything not regarding Luke. Luke didn't turn as he foresaw and Vader did instead.



    Hmm... While sometimes the plot of AOTC can get convoluted, the basic gist of Palpatine's succesful plan can be argued as foreseen.

    "An old friend like... master Kenobi!"
    "That's possible. He's just returned from a border dispute..."

    I had previously thought there was a hint here that Palpatine is trying to attempt to assign Anakin and Obi-Wan to Padme to tempt Anakin with Padme. It's too good to be true, knowing Palpatine's endgame. But regardless of whether he is or not, he definitely knows they will be protecting her from further planned assaination attempts (he REALLY knows) so is setting up Obi-Wan to inevitably end up investigating.

    This is where things can get voraciously debatable. I dont think I have the time or effort to go into it deeply.

    But Kamino needing to be found would mean Dooku told Jango to use a traceable Kamino dart. Or that considering how little The Sith's lackeys are in on the big picture, he knew Jango would stupidly get tracked. I can see that as feasible.

    I think erasing the Kamino record initially was a temporary measure, to hide the army until the Jedi would be closer to using them.

    It does seem silly that Palpatine would know about Dex's knowledge, I dont really have an argument for that.

    I could continue but this post is getting long.
    Generally I argue Sidious is not omniscient by any means, but is arguably the strongest at forseeing in the known saga. The Jedi are in a fog, and the longer the war goes, the worse off their situation gets. Then you have basically the devil dangling "a quick end to the terrible war" in front of them, and they take the bait.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  3. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    He isn't omniscient. But he can foresee broad stroke things such as "Obi-Wan will discover the clone army if I put him in proximity to Jango Fett." That doesn't mean he knows that Jango will use a saberdart to silence Zam and that Obi-Wan will be able to trace it to Kamino. Maybe he does, but he doesn't have to. All he needs is a premonition of Obi-Wan following Jango to Kamino.
     
  4. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Agreed. That is a reasonable outlook.

    Do you have any response to anything else in the post?
     
  5. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, I believe it's all but certain that Sidious fully intended to push Anakin and Padme closer together by assigning him to protect her. Of all the things we're debating whether or not Sidious could have planned for, I think that's the biggest no-brainer of all. It doesn't exactly take a clairvoyant to see that Anakin's crazy about her.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
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  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Except he hasn't.
    Did he foresee that the Jedi would survive the TF trying to kill them, that they would be able to rescue Padme? That Maul would fail to capture her?
    If he did foresee that, then why is he giving orders he knows will fail.
    If he didn't foresee that, then his foresight isn't this specific.

    Also, if he foresaw that Obi-Wan would survive, then he also foresaw that Obi-Wan would wind up on Geonosis.
    Or did Dooku contact Palpatine after he captured Obi-Wan and said "Hey I just caught Obi-Wan spying here. What should I do?"
    And Palpatine goes "Give me a second, Hmmmm... I foresee that he will live no matter what you do so tell him this, this and this. Have him thrown to monsters and have the droid army try to kill him, he will survive, don't worry. And then he will tell the Jedi this and this will serve out goals."

    And it does not stop with Obi-Wan, Palpatine would also have foreseen that Anakin would survive this.
    So sorry, being able to foresee what specific individuals will do or if they will survive specific circumstances. That makes Palpatine omniscient.

    @HevyDevy
    Except this is incorrect, Palaptine had NOT foreseen that Luke would come to Endor or else he would not have been surprised when Vader told him about it.
    So the DS2 was NOT part of the plan to turn Luke.
    That was bait to lure the rebels into a trap and destroy them.
    And if they didn't take the bait, then the DS2 would be ready and the rebels are finished anyway, it would just take longer.

    Palpatine orders Vader to the SSD when he arrives and he is told to wait there.
    Luke would have no real way to get to him on there.

    So it is clear that the plan was for the rebels to come there and be destroyed. Once that was done, then Vader could focus on Luke.
    When Luke showed up, Palpatine adapted his plans.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  7. QUIGONMIKE

    QUIGONMIKE Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Interesting discussion since I just started watching the entire series and have completed EP1 and EP 2. I always wondered too about Dooku and his reveal to Obi-Wan. First time through that caught me off gaurd - I was like "Whoa, *maybe* Dooku is down with actually gettting rid of Palpatine?". This idea seemed viable and quite frankly kind of cool. Then, as others have pointed out here, it doesnt hold enough water. If that was truly Dookus intent he would have gone about it differently. Still, interesting idea there..... ;)
     
  8. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    You're right, I stand corrected.

    I was kind of tired and just brainstorming.
    But yes, Luke being at Endor at all is unexpected by The Emperor. He indeed adapts his plan when he hears this.


    I was trying to demonstrate The Emperor knows more than one macro detail in ROTJ though.

    He knows Luke will seek out Vader himself eventually.
    Once Vader informs him Luke is on Endor, The Emperor knows Luke will come to Vader of his own free will.
    He knows that Luke feels compassion for Vader, and that will be his downfall. Or so he thinks.
    That Luke has grown strong.
    That Luke "could destroy them", he just doesn't foresee the part where it is by turning Vader back.

    He also knows that the Rebels have infiltrated Endor using a stolen shuttle.
    Where the Rebel fleet is massing, and that it is for an attack on the DS2.
    That they know he is on board, and are primed to fall into the trap he has set up.
     
  9. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Just because he foresaw one thing doesn't mean he can foresee everything. That's a logical fallacy you're committing there.

    He had Obi-Wan thrown to the monsters because that was part of the plan. The whole point is to use Obi-Wan to lure the Jedi to Geonosis. The execution arena provides for a convenient battleground where the Jedi can be bottlenecked and surrounded by droids, allowing for a great number of Jedi to be conveniently killed right off the bat.
     
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  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Oh so now the plan was to lure the Jedi to Geonosis?
    So that means he foresaw that Obi-Wan would get there?
    And that he would overhear Dooku's meeting with the seps, report back and get captured.
    So he can foresee that Obi-wan and Anakin would survive the monsters and the following battle.
    He could also foresee that Obi-Wan finds Geonosis etc.

    Your defense that Palpatine isn't omniscient is not credible.

    Also you are using a no-limits logical fallacy, that if foresight is possible then it can be used to know things to a very specific degree.
    And your other logic problem is that this ability is for no reason very inconsistent.
    It is there because the plot needs it and it is gone when the plot needs it as well.

    I instead see it like this, there was no plan to lure Obi-Wan anywhere.
    Nute wanted Padme dead so Dooku sent Jango to do it.
    And this fit Palpatine as well as she was an obstacle to the army bill.
    They wanted her dead, when that failed, Palpatine adapted and sent her off-world.

    Obi-wan was never meant to find the clone army or Geonosis and instead the Kamino would contact the senate when the army was ready and had the army bill been passed, Palpatine could just let the senate know of this army that apparently the Jedi ordered.
    Starting the war would be easy, Dooku, having got the TF to sign on with Padme's death, either makes a threat or attacks a republic world, the senate panics and Palpatine gets his power and the war starts.

    This has the advantage of the Jedi not having more knowledge about the clone army, such the question marks about the dates of the order/Sifo-Dyas death, Jango or Tyrannus.
    They would be totally in the dark. The public would also be a bit vary of the Jedi since they went behind the senate's back to order this clone army.
    The other advantage is that it does not rely on things Palpatine could not possibly know unless he is omniscient.
    Instead he is quick on his feet and adapts his plans to changing situations, this shows he is clever and cunning as opposed to omniscient and all-knowing.

    Bye.
    Old Stoneface
     
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    He foresaw that Obi-Wan would follow Jango to Kamino, then follow him to Geonosis, get captured, and kickstart the war. He also foresaw that he would survive. Foreseeing things to such a degree of specificity is well within Palpatine's previously established ability limits. Just because you keep calling it omniscience doesn't make it so.

    You also forget that some of these things don't require complete foresight, but simply an understanding of the players involved and an ability to subtly influence circumstances. Palpatine works through a combination of supernatural foresight and masterful planning. Just like a good pulp villain.

    I've never heard of any such "no-limits fallacy." Whatever it is, I don't think it's a valid concept if you're using it in the way I think you're using it. Palpatine is a fictional character with fictional abilities. He can do whatever the plot demands. There's no perfectly logical line-in-the-sand you can draw to say "He shouldn't be able to foresee that." It's just your opinion.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
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  12. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    According to Star Wars Fact File Remake 73;

    [​IMG]

    Only after Sidious orders Dooku to kill Ventress, Dooku vows to bring down Sidious.
     
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  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Well, gee, if some random blurb in the Star Wars Fact File says so....
     
  14. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Well, it's better than nothing.
     
  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    It is omniscience because he can foresee very specific events for specific individuals and also the time-frame involved.
    If Palpatine can foresee exactly what Obi-Wan will do over the next 24 hours, that is a level of foresight that has not been established.
    Ex Palpatine did NOT foresee that Luke would be on the rebel mission or that he would come to Endor.
    Palpatine did not foresee that Valorum would send Jedi or that they would be able to free Padme are escape. Or that Maul would fail to recapture her.

    So to say he can foresee events exactly but only sometimes. That makes his ability inconsistent.

    But it does, if say Jango manage to kill Obi-Wan, or Obi-Wan killed him or manage to capture him.
    Then his plan will fail.
    If Obi-Wan blurts out the wrong thing to the Kamino people, like "Wait, what army? The senate never agreed to this." That would cause problems.
    If Dooku would get captured or killed on Geonosis, then his plans would also fail.

    In RotS, if Anakin would get blown up before reaching the ship, then his plan is also ruined.

    In short, having Palpatine making extremely convoluted plans that could fail in a number of ways and the only reason he does these plans is because he has omniscience and can foresee everything that will happen.
    That is not masterful or makes him very clever. It just gives him a super advantage in that he knows everything that will happen and what everyone will do. And with that advantage, winning is easy.

    Instead I see him as being clever and thinking of his feet and his plans are such that they can be changed or adapted due to changing circumstances.

    [/QUOTE]

    A "No-limits fallacy" is basically taking an established power and then arguing that it has no upper limit.
    We see Yoda lift Luke's X-Wing. So taking that and then saying that Yoda could throw the DS into the sun.
    That is a no-limits fallacy.
    Vader is shown blocking blaster bolts with his hand. Then arguing that it also means he could block shots from an ISD as well and even a blast from the DS. That is a no-limits fallacy.

    Here we do know that Force users can see the future, this is established. But what is also established is that "Always in motion is the future". Meaning what someone sees does not have to happen.
    What is also established is that sometimes events happen that a Force users has not foreseen.
    So this ability has limits is is not super exact.
    So if Palpatine makes plans that HINGE on events happening in a VERY specific way and otherwise his plans are ruined. This makes little sense and makes him look less smart.
    And if the only explanation that he foresaw that everything would happen exactly as planned and so he knew his plans were good. As I said, that only gives him a massive advantage so now winning is easy.

    So having Palpatine be able to foresee very specific events for specific people over an extended period of time is is not really established.
    Did Palpatine foresee this before he set the wheels in motion to order the clone army?
    So ten years before AotC?
    If he did not, what was his plan to have the army be "found"?

    In closing and I don't think we will get any further with this.
    Your answer to the OP's question is that Dooku had no plans to turn Obi-Wan and he just said this because Palpatine had told him what to say and that he should say this because Obi-Wan would survive and tell the Jedi this and this would work to their advantage.

    Bye.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  16. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    No one has argued that Palpatine is omniscient. All I've argued is that he was able to foresee certain events which occurred in AOTC, just as he was able to foresee certain events which occurred in ROTJ. Nowhere in this argument is there even the slightest whiff of an implication that Palpatine therefore must be able to foresee literally everything. You're the only one implying that, for reasons known only to you.

    Also, I'm still not sure where you're getting this "no-limits fallacy" from. Please send me a link to an article. I Googled it and the first result was another Star Wars fan forum, which is not a good sign.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
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  17. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Palpatine likes to play up his "Events are proceeding exactly as I have foreseen!" persona of the omniscient, all seeing chessmaster but in actual fact his REAL strength is having plans and back up plans to cover most eventualities. If the Jedi are trapped on Geonosis, there's a plan for that, if they don't, he'll have another plan. He knows that eventually the clone army will be needed and that will be the seed of the Jedi's downfall but he doesn't necessarily know how or when. But as soon as one of his multiple options plays out he acts like it was the ONLY way it was EVER going to go and that he knew this ahead of time.

    Dooku may have come up with all sorts of plans but he's not in the same league as Palpatine, if Kenobi had turned Palpatine would benefit as that's another emotional rung kicked out from under Anakin, and in the end he'd set up the same deal as played out with Ventress: one must kill the other.
     
  18. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Dooku was taking a stab inthe dark. He knew he already was part of Sidious’ plan to start the Clone Wars, but I suspect his offer to Obi to “join me and together we csn destroy the Sith!” was similiar to Vader’s offer to Luke, “Join me and togther we csn rule the galaxy as father and son.” On the other hand, Dooku may have been looking for an out, sensing he was only place holder tell Sidious found a more powerful apprentice. It is striking that Dooku tells Obi the truth, “what if I told you the Senate was under the control by a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious.”
     
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  19. Master Endz-One

    Master Endz-One Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2017

    The Sith in the PT mostly told the truth from their perspective and mixed in some lies. Yes, they did deceive, but much truth was told in trying to convert a Jedi. Most Jedi weren't weak minded and couldn't easily be deceived by 100% made up lies
     
  20. Kato Sai

    Kato Sai Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2014
    I womder if we will get some answers in the Dooku book?

    [​IMG]
     
  21. SlashMan

    SlashMan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2012
    While Dooku dropped the huge bombshell about a Sith controlling the Senate, there was still a huge lie in his story that destroyed all credibility: Nute Gunray being betrayed by Sidious. That part about the Trade Federation and Sidious falling out after the failed occupation of Naboo was all fiction, as we see in Revenge of the Sith that Gunray still answered directly to Sidious. The reason Gunray was still viceroy of the Trade Federation after multiple trials was directly due to Sidious' influence. The supposed inaction of the Republic was just him playing both sides, which makes me wonder whether Dooku earnestly believed in the cause of the Separatists, or just wanted a seat at the table when Palpatine assumed absolute control.
     
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  22. sith_rising

    sith_rising Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 7, 2004
    I really wanted to like the Dooku book, but I hated the way it was written, like a movie script or something. I only read a few pages, then saw the whole book was like that. ugh...
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    That's because it's an audiobook script. The audiobook itself was released first.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  24. LedReader

    LedReader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 24, 2019
    I find it very hard to believe that Palpatine wanted any Jedi to be told that “the Republic is now under control of a Sith Lord” and to specifically name drop “Darth Sidious” at this point in time. (I also don’t think the discovery of the Clones was part of the plan but that’s a topic for a different thread.) I think Dooku saw an opportunity when Obi-wan fell into his lap since there was no real risk on his end. Either Obi-wan takes this information and says “wait, that actually adds up. And if the Republic is led by the Sith and the Separatists are led by the man who trained Qui-Gon, am I sure I’m on the right side?” which plays into Dooku’s advantage no matter what he does from there, or he says “You’re lying, I’ll never join you” and gets executed, no harm done. But unlike stereotypical villain monologues Dooku still selects what he says carefully, so that even if he manages to escape the chance that on top of that he’s able to do them any harm with the information he’s received is minimal. If you think about it from the Sith Apprentice perspective, the most logical play for Dooku in this situation is to use his fake conflict with Palpatine to hide his true conflict with Sidious while at the same time using his betrayal of Sidious to cover up the fact that they were actually on the same team. Then he can basically throw him under the bus in the eyes of the public and proclaim himself the savior who cleansed the corruption and who definitely should be in charge now. Alas, the hard part about being a Sith is making sure your plan to get rid of the other one succeeds faster than their plan to replace you.

    (I’ve already posted my more general thoughts on the matter in this thread already under my old account which I sadly lost access to)
     
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  25. He was the Jedi know the name Sidious thanks to Dooku
     
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