PT Was Mace Windu possibly on the verge of turning to the dark side fully?

Not just using Vaapad but he always seemed close enough to turn at a moment's notice due to how abruptly aggressive he was, Was there any doubt he could slip into the dark side had there been an opportunity?

 

That's always how I interpreted the scene.
One of the fascinating bits about Anakin's turn is how he was *technically* right, Master Windu executing Palpatine right there and then was, not only illegal, but blatantly against the Jedi Code. Of course, Anakin is acting selfishly (And more than a little hypocritically) here, with his primary interest being saving Padme and his previous execution of Dooku.

This is very much framed as Mace Windu acting in fear and Anger, he KNOWS Palpatine is not helpless, he just witnessed him execute 3 Jedi Masters as if it was nothing.
But the mentality he is in, at least how I interpret Samuel Jacksons acting, is that he is on the edge of darkness ready to take the plunge to save the Jedi and the Republic.
To kill someone who is not attacking you is a violation of the Jedi Code, and Mace sounds absolutely furious as he prepares to do the kill. He's not exactly wrong about Palpatine controlling the senate and the courts, but the lengths he was willing to go definitely left me with the impression that he would have become the very thing he swore to destroy.
We have seen both Luke and Anakin in the same situation, and the killy killy option is repeatedly shown to be the morally incorrect choice for a Jedi.

 

Definitely. I hate to use real world comparisons, but it's like a cop shooting someone because "he'd probably get off anyway." It's not the Jedi way; both Anakin and Mace know this.

 

I don't believe he was about to fully turn to the Dark Side. But he was certainly about to commit a crime.

 

Mace Windu was within his rights to kill Palpatine. Palpatine is able to choke people to death with his thoughts. There's no way to "unarm" someone who can do that. Sorry, but if you can use the force, then you shouldn't do things that result in you getting arrested because technically you can be killed just because of the abilities you naturally possess.

 

The same logic could apply to Vader in Episode VI.
And Dooku earlier in Episode III.

I don't disagree Palpatine was significantly more of a threat than either of them, yet both were clearly portrayed as being wrong to Kill when apparently defenseless.
And Mace Windu definitely seemed to be lashing out in Anger and Hate when he was doing so.
His mindset is understandable, yet in the Films at least it is repeatedly shown that going over to the Dark Side, even for a moment, is not something done lightly and leaves long lasting scars. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan seem convinced its impossible to return to the light after doing so.

 

@ConservativeJedi321 What I wrote was in response to...

Sorry, I should have tagged it.

ROTJ proves that they were mistaken though.

 

Palpatine was in no way defenceless though, which makes the point about Vader and Dooku pretty much moot.

 

Can we really say Dooku or Vader were completely defenseless?
They were at the mercy of Anakin and Luke respectively, sure. But they were still powerful Sith, more than capable of killing even arm deprived. (Heck, Vader Killed Palpatine shortly afterwards!)

The point is Mace was ready to Kill Palpatine in Anger, and thus give in to the dark side. Something that is repeatedly shown (In the Films), to be serious business.
Not something easily turned away from.

 

I'm not sure Windu was going to kill him in anger though, it wasn't until Palpatine started shooting lightning from his fingers he changed his mind.
Even after the duel, his first words were 'you are under arrest 'my lord'"

 

And after killing him, the Jedi were planning on assuming control of the government, bypassing the duly elected Senate. If killing Palpatine isn't considered a crime, usurping the government certainly is.

 

lolwut
Windu wasn't killing him out of anger or just because. "He has control over the Senate and the Courts...." How 'd that turn out?

how is this even a question

 

I don't know, that's just how I interpreted the scene.
Mace definitely didn't seem to have the proper detached Jedi serenity that would be expected of a Master of his rank in that scenario. Of course, I can understand his mindset, just as I can understand the mindset of Anakin killing the Tuskens. Doesn't make it morally right or the Jedi way.

To drive the point home, he (unknowingly) quotes Palpatine word for word about 'Being too dangerous to be kept alive'.
That feels like very intentional mirroring to me. The dark side is not something to be toyed with, it's not 'let's take a quick dip and get back out.' It is an all-consuming compulsion, an addiction. It amplifies and thrives on a Jedi's most dangerous emotions. I do believe Anakin is right that it was not the Jedi way, even as he is hardly a convincing authority on the subject. It is a legitimate question what could have been done otherwise? I don't think Palpatine didn't have a backup plan, but at that precise moment Mace seemed to be acting on emotion, not reason. It would have been more prudent to force Sidious to show his hand before going for the killing blow, and that short sightedness cost everyone.

 

You moved that goalpost in record time.

 

Not at all. Both are part of the same act. There's been considerable debate on the legality of Mace lopping off Palpatine's head. Even under such hectic circumstances, Mace would certainly be subject to the Republic's equivalent of a shooting board (unless the Jedi are not covered under the Republic's laws regarding the use of deadly force by law enforcement agents). But the one act leads to the second: replacing him with the Jedi, which had been decided even before Mace had spoken with Ani. Either way, both are parts of what must be considered an illegal act. I'm sure Mace & the Jedi would offer an explanation for both, if they ever faced any sort of inquiry, but would it be enough to get them a walk?

 

What he actually meant was, "I'm going to strike you down in anger."

It's the Prequels, you have to assume that dialogue means the exact opposite of what it is.

 

He was angry and hateful but I don’t think he would have actually turned if he struck Palpatine down.

Then again, in ROTJ we are led to believe if Luke had killed Vader at the end of their duel he would have then turned fully. When you look at all the mirroring between the scenes perhaps the implication is Mace would have given in to the dark side and turned.

Luke resisting the deed is when he truly becomes a Jedi. It is hard not to see Mace’s decision as an inverted opposite.

Plus there is a recurring symbolic motif in the films that beheadings lead to failure. Hear me out.

Mace beheads Jango and dies trying to behead Sidious.
Anakin beheads Dooku leading to his turn and his maiming by Obi-Wan on Mustafar.
Luke beheads the apparition of Vader on Dagobah and is later defeated and de-limbed by the real person.
He only achieves enlightenment when he flat out refuses to kill Vader in ROTJ.

 

Going in front of a review board doesn't mean you've done something guilty. It means what you've done is being reviewed. Now, you might be found guilty, but you might also be found innocent. Review Board =/= Guilt

Again, going to arrest someone, them trying to kill you, then you killing them in self defense isn't illegal. What Mace may have had planned after that might be highly illegal, but the act of killing in self defense isn't illegal.

 

The Jedi were planning no such thing.
Earlier three Jedi talked about what should be done if Palpatine refused to give up his emergency powers and step down. That he tried to make himself a dictator essentially. They talked about removing him from office but they also talked about how that could mean chaos and in order to secure a peaceful transition they would have to take control of the senate. And Yoda warned that this talk could take them to a dark place. So they had not decided anything.
Plus this was before they found out that Palpatine was a Sith.

I don't know what the Republic constitution is but if Palpatine tried to violate it by making himself a Dictator, then would the Jedi not be obligated to act? They are the Guardians of Peace and Justice are they not?
And just letting a person take over would that not be a bigger violation of their oaths?
And if the senate was playing along, and in so doing, also violating the constitution, again would the Jedi not have an obligation to act?

The situation is VERY tricky and could result in a huge mess. But if the Jedi see a blatant power grab by the chancellor and one that is indeed illegal, should they just stand by and do nothing?
And if they just remove Palpatine from office and nothing else, what would happen then?
Would everything just fix itself?
Unlikely, the senate could unravel and a second civil war could start.
So that the Jedi realize that it might not be that simple and they might need to to do more, that shows them actually thinking ahead for once. But Yoda showed that this is something they are not comfortable with and could indeed be very dangerous.
So the Jedi have no easy answer, no obvious good choice. Just a variety of bad ones.
And to me, refusing to act because your options are bad and in so doing causing something really bad to happen, inaction is in itself an action.

Again, the Jedi had not decided anything, they were just speculating what they should do if Palpatine did not stand down after Griev had been destroyed. And again, this was before they knew Palpatine was a Sith.
Had Mace talked to any of the Jedi about what Anakin told him? The film suggest no. So the other Jedi had no clue what he was doing.
Did he have the legal right to arrest the chancellor? If he did not, then his actions are a crime. If he did and Palpatine violently resisted arrest, twice, then Mace would have a legal excuse to kill him.
Palpatine would not submit and was resisting arrest and had killed three Jedi and tried twice to kill Mace.

Had Mace killed him, what then? Well a very big mess. Would the Jedi have enough evidence to show the senate that Palpatine was indeed a Sith and behind the clone war and all that. If yes, that could unravel much of Palpatine's support in the senate. If not, as said, big mess.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

or...

I got the context wrong, I should have listened to dialogue in some unrelated scene, or some off shoot junior novel, it's clear then:


Mace actually meant 'you are under a vest soon to be minced meat"

 

Thank you. Everyone always seems to gloss over that.