PT Was Padme/Anakin ever a healthy relationship?

Nice points about the domestic scenes and the tease that they implied. Padme & Anakin *could* have been just regular people if circumstances would have let them. But there just was no way. I always questioned why the Jedi were forced to stay loveless. I get the whole attachment thing being a problem but its human nature to potentially fall in love and that can be a source of great power and dedication. Something like that.

Its just so tragic that it had to go the way it did. She was an angel(as Anakin mentioned in TPM ) and he was a troubled soul that really could have have benefitted from a strong reltionship with someone wise and wholesome like her.

 

I agree.

 

Romantically, yes until Anakin's turn (and somewhat during TCW, specifically during the final Clovis arc). No less healthy than an average loving marriage except for the need to keep it a secret.
Anakin's turn to violence caused it to stop being healthy.

I will confess that the delivery of the line "Sorry milady" seems wrong for the context in my opinion, but otherwise, Anakin's flirting isn't far from that of a normal awkward guy. Nor is the behavior of either of them as a couple pre-Vader. It's not their fault attachment is forbidden.

 

They have a healthy relationship more so in TCW and the micro-series than in the films, I'd say. But their relationship is healthy at the beginning of ROTS. I like their moment of worrying and being overjoyed about the pregnancy. Anakin is too excited to worry, but Padme is concerned about exposing their relationship. But the dialogue in which they talk about her being beautiful and them being in love is just silly. I mean, don't get me wrong. That scene gets a lot of hate, but I think we all know what Lucas meant when he wrote it. It's just not the type of thing a 23-year-old and a 27-year-old would say in the midst of a war.

Overall, Anakin is more mature in TCW than in the films. More likable. But Hayden Christensen is a good actor. He made Anakin sinister in 2002 and made him conflicted in 2005. His performance is at best B+ or A-. He doesn't deserve the hate he gets. It's the dialogue that sucks. But I do think he sells that the relationship was unhealthy better than Natalie Portman. Portman just did not like playing Padme after TPM. She seems uncomfortable with it to a certain degree on film and in interviews. But you just need to look at the ROTS novelization to understand their relationship. It's unhealthy on both ends. I would argue that Anakin is more controlling and unhealthy than Padme, but some people think the fault is split 50-50. There is a debate to be had about it. The ROTS novelization depicts Padme as thinking of Anakin as a beast, a lion under her control. I think that's a bit out of character. I personally think she wanted to help him, to save him. That's my take. But I have to use my imagination to see that in the films. In TCW, that's very clear. It's obvious that he's more mature and wiser than him in TCW. But Anakin is a lot more likable and has his own wisdom in TCW. You really buy him as a tragic character in that show, whereas the films almost show him as a bad seed destined to fall.

So, I would say that their relationship was rarely healthy in the films, but it was healthy more often in TCW. Generally speaking. There was one time that he engaged in domestic violence in TCW by beating up her ex in front of her. Yes, he's not hitting her, but he's doing it in front of her, and that's horrifying. Definitely not an example to set for kids! But it also shows kids that Padme actively chose to stay with Anakin. Imagine if she left? Ugh. He would have fallen to the dark side early. I would be concerned about her. But Palpatine preferred Anakin to fall late in the war. If you look at the ROTS novelization, Sidious is manipulating Anakin against Padme very subtly. He didn't want him to stay with her. But still, Sidious Palpatine did not kill Padme himself. He merely implanted the vision Anakin had of Padme dying in Anakin's head. Personally, I think the EU handled it well. Her former security officer blames Vader for Padme's death. Lucas should have depicted Padme as standing up to the new Darth Vader. She could either run away with Bail and stay with him until she died fighting the Empire...or she could have been killed by Vader personally on Mustafar. This whole notion of a broken heart is a problem. She shouldn't be forgiving Anakin as she's dying. Yes, what she says is true...he can be redeemed. But I think she should have said that before she understood what Vader was, how far he had fallen. There's nothing wrong with her believing that, but I doubt she would have said so after he had killed younglings. She was pregnant, and she was with a man who had just killed children. Ugh. Gosh, this is dark. Sorry. I don't have a degree in psychology, but I did take several counseling courses in South Dallas years ago, and one of them was Marriage Counseling. Another was Trauma Counseling.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but this would have been more realistic.



Vader viewed Padme as a traitor. I think Vader would have personally regretted killing Padme, but I doubt he would have admitted so to Sidious. I do like how some stories like The Lost Command in the EU handle Vader's remorse for killing Padme. But that's troubling in its own way. He's obsessed with his dead wife in a way that makes crazy Severus Snape look healthy by comparison.

 

I wonder who would think it *was* healthy.

 

No one, I hope.

 

Put me in the category of people saying the relationship was never healthy. That's why it's so brilliant that Across the Stars has such a "star-crossed lovers" vibe to it. Perfectly suits the doomed relationship fraught with issues from the very beginning.

 

I don't mean to make you spoil your wonderfully concise post, but could you give us some examples?

And, how do you mean? If I may ask.

Thanks.

 

It became unhealthy only because of the strictures enforced upon them by the Jedi Code. By extension, what was really unhealthy was the Jedi belief that attachment is forbidden. Qui-Gonn felt this, and the truth of it was rediscovered by Luke, when he went against Yoda and Obi-Wan's advice and turned Vader back by appealing to his familial love (alway's Vader's weakness, as Palpatine should have been aware).

 

That's some wonderful insight!

I think there is genuine love between them. But what makes it unhealthy is the manner in which it is expressed.

Also the age difference, I think helps set up the pseudo mother relationship.

 

Given how their relationship started, I can't see it as anything but a powder keg of issues given their impulsiveness. AOTC frames Anakin as uncouth and unsettling. Padme only seems to relent to his insistence on the pretense that their imminent deaths on Geonosis means she didn't have to face the consequences of obliging a relationship. I never got the sense she was into him and only saw him as a kid, so the villa excursion made it hard for me to reconcile with what the story was saying and how Padme was reacting.

ROTS kinda drives the nail in the coffin with Anakin's desire to keep Padme from dying and Padme drawing a line in the sand when she confronts him on Mustafar.

I think the only thing that challenged how I saw their relationship was the animated Clone Wars series. The AOTC dynamic was still present, but their interactions weren't isolated to awkward flirting and Padme seemed to have more agency in their relationship (it wasn't just about Anakin's view of their dynamic). The show's characterization of Anakin also made me believe Padme could fall in love with him.

 

his mom liked sand too.

 

I'm not sure that Freud ever explored the concept of a male being attracted to a female because she filled a mother role for him, lost or otherwise. If so, I'd love to read it.
Instead, you may be thinking of the Oedipus Complex, which is something different entirely, and has long since been reconsidered to the point that it's no longer used in evidence based treatments. Nor is it relevant to Anakin's story.

The concept that someone can be attracted to another because they merely remind them of their opposite-sex parent, subconsciously or otherwise, is quite common and not even considered abnormal. Nor unhealthy, except in such cases where the parent figure was a negative one; yet these negative characteristics are still often sought out because of their familiarity. And all in all, the studies into these matters are not linked with Freud or his work.

However, I'm still not convinced that even this is exactly what's going on with Anakin.

A more applicable avenue may be found in the works of Carl Jung and his research into what he calls The Anima Archetype.

Briefly, the Anima consists of the feminine aspects of a male's psyche; such as nurturing, emotionality etc. It is mostly subconscious and often repressed to some degree as one grows up. It is also often influenced by the male's experience with his mother. Among other things, it is also the lens through which he sees all other women.
The word Anima comes from the Latin, Ancient Greek and even Proto-Indo-European terms for soul, vital principle, air or breath; which ties in nicely already with Anakin/Vader.

Another role the Anima plays is in constellating how a particular male envisions the ideal woman. Often when one claims to have experienced love at first sight, he is reacting to a woman who perfectly corresponds with his Anima. When Anakin's primary response upon meeting Padme was to see her as an angel, I think one could argue this is what was going on; the 9-year old version, at least. I'm not saying this is what Lucas was modeling anything by, but for psychology enthusiasts, it fits the pattern.

Anakin was already drawn powerfully to Padme, albeit boyishly, before he knew he was going to be leaving his mother. One could argue he developed a desire for her to be a nurturing type for him over time, but that wasn't the only factor.

It's not spelled out for us, but I'm not entirely convinced Anakin saw Padme as a mother figure; at least, I don't think that's why he fell in love with her. Rather he just longed for a sense of intimate connection like most people. The major problems in Anakin began to trigger or crystallize when his mother died, and he already loved Padme at that point.
Whether or not she consoled him in the garage after the slaughter has no bearing on that. She was being the same Padme she'd always been. And I'd say his problem thereafter wasn't that he wanted a mothering type, it was that he blamed himself and took on the deluded resolution to learn to stop death - in his mother's honor; rather than directing his efforts towards healing his pain and confronting his reaction to the Tusken village. (As Even Piell said, "He must face the mirror.")

Padme was compassionate and nurturing, but I'm not sure I would say Padme necessarily forgave Anakin for the slaughter. for one, it wasn't her place to do so. Nor would I exactly say she encouraged him not to blame himself. By stating anger is human, I'd think she was implying that reacting in anger is natural and that he shouldn't be quite so hard on himself while in the midst of grieving the loss of his mother.

Anakin's dreams of his mother came to him through the Force via his emotional connection to her, much like Luke and his friends in Cloud City.
GL rightly left it open, however, personally I'd lean more towards his dreams of Padme dying being his subconscious trying to speak to him about overcoming his greatest fears. Not a prophecy.
Furthermore, prophecies are often open to interpretation. It is the hero who is the agent of their own rise or fall. Anakin's problem was that he chose to interpret the dream as a prophecy.

And not to continue being a contrarian but the question in the OP may not be the best one to ask. This is a classical love story where the circumstances are dramatic and turbulent. Their love is extraordinary, it's insecure, it's against the odds and it's even uncomfortable, but even through the tumultuous times it's also filled with life, hope, humor and beauty. (Until the end, of course). It's larger than life but also full of depth while still relatable on many levels. All in all, I just don't know if putting a modern lense of "healthiness" on it is fitting.

 

It could have been healthy . . . if they had not started their marriage with a lie. I think their lie made both of them just a bit more attached to each than they should have been. I had expected Anakin and Padme to endure the usual conflicts and troubles that most marriages endure. But they should not have allowed their marriage to start with a lie.

 

One aspect about their relationship that I have noted is how...relatively sexless it was.

Which may tie into the whole pseudo mother aspect.

Of course SW is generally very averse to this subject(the EU less so, but really not by much), and Lucas doesn't strike me as an artist comfortable dealing with it.

But I get the notion that the physical aspect of their marriage was not something either cared or invested much in. The only scene that sort of hints that is Anakin sleeping shirtless, but that need not be taken in that context. And of course the twins are his, but to me its implied they aren't that active with regards to conjugal matters.

And while Anakin spent most of his time at war and away, somehow I get the impression it wasn't not a physically active marriage, if everyone catches my drift.

Of course the absences involved and the fact Anakin was a jedi knight likely were involved, but it says something about little the marriage or their love is portrayed in a sexual or passionate manner.

Because it isn't, not even subtextually(at least not from my viewing).

This says something to me about the nature of their relationship. It was based far more on sort of emotional desire, than physical desire.

I don't know I'm not clarifying this point well, someone else may do better.

 

They're family movies. I would not personally draw any other conclusions from the fact that George Lucas did not feel it appropriate to include sex scenes in his Star Wars films.

But I think there was plenty of sexual desire involved.



You know, just a....feeling....I have.

 

I feel that it was not so much "unhealthy," as it was "unwise." Anakin's obsession about loss and controlling things is really what the main problem was-not so much that they were in love, or even how they were towards eachother.

 

I like how this guy defends Obi-Wan and Padme. Anakin needed a psychiatrist.

 

In a relationship potentially designated 'Pad-nakin' you tell me.

 

As someone who has been married for the last 27 years, I must say that there is a whole lot more to marriage than just sex. Yes it is one aspect of it, but not the be all and end all.
There was an obvious sexual attraction on both their parts, as was stated before.

And they obviously had to have a sexual aspect to their marriage, or Padme would have never gotten pregnant.

And I won't even comment on the ridiculous notion that something untoward was going on between Kenobi and Padme. (I guess I just did.)

 

The last thing the SW universe needs is psychiatrists.

Then again, who really cares about Freud? I don't think I can relate to even a single one of his theories. Besides bringing Freud into SW is taking things too far. How much psychoanalysis do we need in a space opera anyway? You can interpret and then you can also OVER-interpret.
Yes, their relationship was healthy, unless you limit and confine "healthy" to 21st century Earth Western social norms. I hope Lucas was more farsighted than that. You have a future Sith and a senator who fall in love. How "healthy" do "we" (meaning those hobby-psychoanalysts) want this kind of relationship to be? And what does "healthy" mean anyway? We all have our own interpretations. I always despised fixed social norms regarding relationships. So for me Anakin and Padmé work, until he tries to kill her on Mustafar of course. Up till then, they are just a normal couple who have everyday arguments.

 

I never got the impression that Anakin and Padme's relationship was sexless. Granted, it didn't have the same vibe as Leia and Han's. Then again, the fact that Han was already sexually experienced when he became involved with Leia made his relationship with her different than the relationship between her parents - both, who were not sexually experienced when they married. And unlike a good number of STAR WARS fans, I had never expected Anakin and Padme's relationshp to be the same as Leia and Han's. Then again, I had noticed that a lot of people had expected the Prequel Trilogy to have a vibe similar to the Original Trilogy, despite it conveying a completely different story.

I don't really understand this comment. I really don't. Are you trying to say that Anakin and Padme hardly had sex during their marriage . . . at least when the war didn't keep them apart? How did you come to this conclusion?

As I had earlier stated, I believe the only unhealthy aspect of their marriage was keeping it a secret from others. Even Padme had pointed out in "Attack of the Clones" that such a secret would affect their relationship and their lives.

I don't think Padme gave Anakin a "free pass" in regard to his killing of the Tuskens. I have a deep suspecion, based on the movie's novelization, that she believed the Tuskens got what they deserved for kidnapping and torturing Shmi to death. Which tells me that she was never the ideal saint that many fans tend to believe she was.

 

Padme definitely strikes me as the type who looks down on people's social or living environments just out of learned ignorance fostered in her own space and doesn't really check herself or try to unlearn it. She never seemed all that comfortable on Tatoonie in The Phantom Menace and everything that happened in Attack of the Clones seemed to reinforce her, I guess, lack of sympathy for its inhabitants - this time with the excuse that Anakin was harmed by them.

I think she was shocked by his actions, but I also don't think it automatically meant she mourned the Tuskens on the receiving end of his vengeance. If you wanna get really speculative, maybe it took Padme getting pregnant to consider killing children as a point-of-no-return? I mean, it took a hostile takeover on Naboo to get Padme (a member of the wealthy elite) to consider the Gungans (the Other) with any kind of decency (or at least, that's how I saw it).

 

I have not read the novel, but I got that impression as well. Previously Cliegg Lars said that they may look like men, but they are beasts. They not only kidnapped and tortured Shmi, but 30 men went to save her and only 4 came back alive. Anakin says they live like animals and he slaughtered them like animals. There's nothing we can compare Tusken Raiders to in our modern lives, but they are lawless and violent. They kill indiscriminately. The focus is more on Anakin taking vengeance when he should not, regardless of what they did to his mother or how evil they are, he gave into his darkness. It's not the Jedi way and he should know to never use the force in anger. But, Padme is not a Jedi and she thinks his anger was justified.

I really agree with your last statement. I feel like Padme does not get enough credit at all for her complexities. She may prefer diplomatic solutions, but she is not above aggressive negotiations.

To the OPs question: In AOTC, Anakin might pursue Padme, but she holds the power. I like their dynamic. When they kiss and she stops him, he apologizes and never tries it again. In front of the fire place he tells her "What can I do? I will do anything that you ask." His feelings for her are reverential and courtly. He is also free of any affectations, open and honest with his feelings, unlike Padme's political ilk. It was obviously refreshing for her to let her hair down and laugh with him. They fight side by side in Geonosis and he treats her like his equal in strength. I think if they did not have to hide their relationship, if he did not grow up in such a repressive environment where his attachments were treated like an illness, they could've had a healthy relationship under normal and healthy circumstance. They were both teaching the other how to open up and enjoy life. Being silly and foolish and in love.

But, once he gave into the darkside, his love became possessive and controlling. The Anakin at the start of Revenge of the Sith is the same reverential one, stunned by the beauty of his pregnant wife brushing her hair and speaking about their child. Could you see him choking her? Not ever. He's completely changed by the end. He's consumed by the power boost he's feeling and that's driven by pain, suffering, anger and self-loathing. He's paranoid and crazed. Yet, after knowing everything Padme still believes there is good in him and wants him to run away with her, so they can leave all the mayhem he caused behind. She may not be able to walk the same path as him and would've left him, but she was willing to still accept him if he stopped. Which is important because this is the legacy she leaves behind for Luke and it's what saves Anakin.