was Pellaeon a better grand admiral than thrawn

What I am trying to get at, is Pellaeon could have the rank of Captain already at Endor. I am not suggesting that he was anywhere higher than that. There is nothing that states in "cannon" that his rank was anything less.

He assumed the position of captain of the ship. But his rank in the navy may have already been at that of Captain.

And if that's the case, then there may be good reason why his order was a) heeded, & b) legal.

 

Not necessarily true. If Pellaeon held the rank of captain, and the Ship's Captain held the rank of Commodore, Pellaeon may have been a flag captain within the task force or fleet the Chimaera was assigned to.

I know this is all speculation, and no, I don't have any source that would indicate that; yet just because he was a ship's XO does NOT make him below every single other ships' captains. Those other ships' captains may hold a rank lower than Captain in the Imperial Fleet.

Also if the Chimaera was a flag ship (which there is evidence against - htte: Thrawn built his own "flag" bridge out of the officer's club iirc) then the XO would have had significant power within the task force / Fleet. Given the state of communication through out the Imperial armada stationed there, there is ample reason as to why Pellaeon's order may have been considered a legal action.

 

Actually, I believe HttE stated that Thrawn's secondary bridge was a nonstandard modification that wasn't seen on most Imperial Star Destroyers, similar to Zsinj's fake bridge on Iron Fist. A custom modification to suit the flag officer's purposes.

I need to get HttE and DFR back, or just buy a new copy of each of them. They're pretty beat up, after all.

 

Yeah, Thrawn took the Captain's Entertainment Area and turned it into his Art Theater/Meditation Lounge/Second Bridge.

 

Is pallaeon a better Grand Admiral than thrawn?

Well thrawn's brilliant-I'd even say (lightheartedly) an idiot-savant when it comes to war and space battles and the such, but pallaeon always struck me with his high level of conventional competence at the job.
i doubt few could beat Thrawn in terms of strategy and tactics, but in doing the job of running a large number of disparate indiviuals...i'd say Pallaeon is a bit better, and is no slouch when it comes to strategy and tactics either.
that's why working together the two of them were a real danger to the NR, the union of brilliance and competence (shudders), not a good prospect for the good guys.

 

It should be noted that Thrawn and Pellaeon remain, aside from maybe Dooku in YR, the only Star Wars villains I have ever truly sympathized with.

 

Harrsk?s following of the retreat order shows that he at worst condoned it or at best ratified it at the time it was given, thereby making the order legal despite his subsequent desertion. In any case, any real blame for the incident would have fallen on Harrsk for his own dereliction of duty, first during the battle for not offering adequate leadership (it fell to a captain to take command of the fleet due to Harrsk?s ineptitude) and latter for deserting the Empire in its hour of need.

Also I have not been able to find a canonical timeframe to determine how long it was after the disabling of Teshik?s ship that the retreat was called.

Although the previous ?continued to fight for four hours? suggests it was not as long after the disabling as that, it does neither flat-out-state that it was an immediate thing. As a time frame wasn?t mentioned it probably was not as much as an hour (as a significant a time period as that would not go without mentioning) the act of the withdrawal itself could easily have gone on for longer than that as they attempted to break away from the engagement and recover Ties and such. Incidentally, we do know for a fact that they at least recovered some Ties before departing.

In X-wing Rogue Squadron: Blood and Honour we see Baron Fel and the 181st fighting at Endor in their Tie Interceptors, craft incapable of a solo hyperspace jump, therefore they must have been picked up by their carriers. This alone suggests an orderly retreat rather than an all out rout. Also, the designation of a rally point for the fleet (Annaj) shows that they were withdrawing with the intention to regroup rather than heading for the hills, if Harrsk hadn?t broken away then and there and instead done what he was supposed to do the Imperial fleet may very well have struck at the Alliance forces still holding at Endor. In fact if Harrsk had shown any leadership ability during the battle itself, Pelly may not have had to issue that order in the first place.

On the rank note, in Bacta War (I don?t have the book with me so I can?t find an exact quote) the ?Captain? of the Star Destroyer Corrupter holds the rank of Commodore in the Imperial Navy but Ysanne Isard points out that aboard his own ship it is proper to refer to the man by the title ?Captain?, so yes, a higher ranking officer could have been in charge of the Chimera and Pellaeon could easily have held the rank of Captain.

As for the whos the better grand Admiral?

Thrawn is a genius, although Pelly could plan a battle just as well it?s the time taken over this and the ability to re-think ones strategy in a combat situation that counts and in this area, Thrawn trumps Pellaeon.

But.

Pellaeon is the better character, he has had a great character arc (however unintentional), he has actually earned his rank through the better part of a century of hard work and loyal service.

But.

Thrawn was born to the role of grand admiral. He didn?t have to work for it (well he did but not in the same sense as Pelly) it all came so naturally to him. He is THE Grand Admiral, the best Grand Admiral and everything one is supposed to be. Thrawn is the better Grand Admiral, but Pellaeon is the better person.

 

I concure with your assessment of Thrawn vs. Pellaeon.

 

As do I.

 

still, in real navy...admiral, commadore, lieutenant...if he's in charge, he's the Captain

 

Would it be possible that Eleemosynary's disabling, after which Pellaeon ordered a retreat, was only temporary and Teshik regained control of his ship, only to be disabled again (and ultimately fatally) four hours' worth of continued fighting later?

 

No.

 

Think about it: Hoth's ion cannon was said to only be able to put Imperial-class Star Destroyers out of commission for a couple of minutes, just providing a window for the transports and X-wing fighters to escape. In the original Rogue Squadron game, in the cutscene where Kasan Moor's TIE Interceptor is disabled, she complains something to the effect of that she's been hit by the ion cannon enough times for her to stay disabled for several minutes (haven't played the game in years). Ion cannon effects wear off, or at least can be somehow counteracted. That's G-canon.

 

Chimaera's secondary command: off what Thanos6 said, I think there a line in the Thrawn Trilogy that says secondary command was previously used as a sort of private torture-game room by the previous Captain; but I think it was always secondary command...

Ait Convarion: is a Commander by rank, yes (three red tabs over two blue, a code cylinder at either shoulder); but he outranks the rank of Captain (three red tabs over two blue, one code cylinder at the left shoulder), although by virtue of being Corruptor's commander, he is addressed as "Captain Convarion". This is all explicit in The Bacta War.

You might object that this isn't the way the ranks of the RN/USN work, but no-one ever said the Imperial Fleet should follow the Anglo-American system; in the real-world, "Commander" as the rank above "Captain" has extensive international historical precedent ("Commodore" is actually just the way the title developed in the mouths of British sailors in the later seventeenth century) and in SW, it is supported widely in the EU...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Sorry on the Convarion note, twas late and I twas tired and I didn't have the book with me but the point still stands that his rank was higher than that of a captain's but was still refered to as such as a point of protocole(as has already been pointed out). So yes. Opps

 

Kudzu: "That's G-canon"

Is it? Hardly. One does not witness the repair of the Star Destroyer.

Essentially, if Teshik's ship were disabled, it would mean near-instant death in that situation. He surrendered because his ship was disabled. To have his ship disabled beforehand then miraculously fighting on for another four hours (already hard to believe) is a ridiculous stretch.

 

I'm pretty sure Leia says something to the effect of the ion charge lasting long enough to let the transports and escorts escape.

 

LEIA: The energy shield can only be opened for a short time, so you'll have to stay very close to your transports.

 

Jello It is specifically stated in the text that Commander is a higher rank than Captain in the Imperial Navy. Something we know for certain.

??he was a Commander not a MERE captain. Even so, because of his position of command on the ship and Imperial tradition, addressing him as captain would be proper.? Bacta war, page 134 (1997 print)

The emphasis on the ?mere? is mine but the point stands. Commander is higher the Captain in the Imperial Navy, unless you are suggesting that Convarion is a fighter pilot hmm?

As to him being in charge of a lesser ship of the fleet, the RL answer is for story-telling purposes, pure and simple. It?s to make him seem a very nasty prospect for the Rogues, a worthy foe for our favourite rebels. However in this discussion that?s neither here nor there.

In universe there are several reasons for this presented in the text but the most plausible is this. At the top of page 135 we read some of Vorru?s thoughts on the man. Mainly he describes Convarion as an ambitious and driven man, the kind of man (we can infer from the text) who, granted control of the most powerful ship in the fleet would more-likely-than-not, turn his guns on Isard, take control of Thyferra and set himself up as a Warlord. Vorru best puts this when he thinks: ?If he were my subordinate, I would have him killed.?

Basically he is someone who is very useful to Isard in the currant situation she?s in due to his competence, and his decisive nature (?Such decisiveness was the sort of thing Isard appreciated?? BW p136) but someone you do not hand a knife to before offering him your throat.

 

Also on the disabling front.

You could disable a ship's engines and it could still fight. Then the latter disabling could refer to a total disabling of all ship's systems, whatever the case, it's all conjecture.