PT Was Shmi's death part of Palpatine's scheme?

It is the result of the dark side fueling him. Remember that Yoda warned Luke that the dark side will be quick to join a Jedi in battle and using it will start to consume them. It wasn't that Anakin was psychotic, but that his anger and hate was so great, that he felt the dark side beckon and he didn't back away. Luke was no different when he attacked his own father.



Luke just said that he wouldn't kill his own father, but when he lost control of his emotions, he went ballistic and tried to commit patricide. If Luke were in the same situation as his father and lost control, it would be no different. That's what the dark side does to you and what having uncontrolled emotions result in happening. We see it with Obi-wan after Maul fatally wounded Qui-gon.

He does, but only at the end.

 

Actually, The Making of Revenge of the Sith shows an early draft of the script for the Anakin/Dooku duel, in which Palpatine says something along the lines of "he told me he had your mother killed by the Tusken Raiders!".

Doesn't confirm it was true as both Palpatine and Dooku were pathological liars - and certainly isn't a solid source as it's an early draft - but that is where this emanates from.

 

What is there to be said about the fact that Anakin’s visions of Shmi’s and Padme’s deaths come to him in full-on dreams? Luke and the other Jedis have waking visions when they sense those they care about are in danger. It seems the dream route is such a rarity that Anakin even uses the word “premonition” when consulting Yoda. As if perhaps Yoda wouldn’t fully relate to Anakin’s troubles. Even Obi-Wan dismisses them as if their nothing to be overly concerned about.

Could it be that Anakin’s bonds with Shmi and Padme are so deep and so based in a mutual love that his ‘premonitions’ go beyond the standard Force vision and are based on a more symbiotic level.

He just can't break away from these chains. Chains of love.
(No, really. What was the first thing that happened to Anakin & Padme after she confessed her love?)

 

What's more is that Lucas did later talk about his earlier intentions of having Palpatine reveal himself as Anakin's creator, in interviews and I think commentaries for ROTS. He never talked about the Sith being involved with Shmi's kidnapping, at any point in his interviews and commentaries.

 

The odd thing there is that RETURN OF THE JEDI sets it up so that if Luke gives into his murderous rage, he’s automatically a bad guy, but when Vader does it, he’s somehow still a good guy. Don’t make much sense to me.

 

Luke has to do more than just kill out of revenge, he has to want to use the dark side willingly and embrace it. When Anakin killed the Tusken Raiders, he didn't want to be evil. But it left him vulnerable to using the dark side more and more until he is forced to embrace it. That's why Palpatine had to wear Anakin down because he was trained for ten years by Obi-wan. Palpatine doesn't believe that Luke had been trained that long and could easily turn him faster due to his age and his overt attachments. It is also why Vader fights Luke the second time, because he believes that Luke won't turn and needs proper motivation.

 

And? As soon as Luke realized that he was using the dark side, he tossed his lightsaber aside. Not once in the entire movie does Luke even come close to willingly embracing the dark side. By your own logic, there was never any real danger of Luke turning since pretty much everyone knows that he will NEVER willingly turn. The only possible way to turn Luke would be for him to get lost in the heat of the moment, and not realize that he’s turned to the dark side until it’s too late…which is the exact result that the Emperor and Darth Vader are going for.

 

I think they both were exposed/vulnerable to the Dark Side; only one would reject it.

 

Anakin killing Dooku is nowhere near as bad as Luke killing his father would be. Anakin and Dooku have no positive connection, it is empty revenge. It's more an omen that Anakin will kill in cold blood if the circumstance is right.

When Anakin kills Mace, Mace is a superior who has just started trusting Anakin. The betrayal aspect is there, like it would be if Luke killed Vader. Anakin is consciously putting himself above the entire Jedi Order with this action.

I realise Anakin not fully crossing the line by killing Dooku is a retcon, but it works.

 

Actually, I was referring to the Sand People massacre, where it’s clearly stated that he murdered children.

 

Oh. My mistake.

Well as strange as it may sound, the Tusken massacre is really the Dagobah "cave" scene of the PT.


AOTC

ESB



Fear has led him there. Anakin sees his dying mother.

Fear leads him to bring his weapons in. He shows fear when he spots the apparition of his father.







Decapitation in hate

Decapitation in hate



AOTC - Yoda: "Pain, suffering, death I feel!"
ESB - Yoda: "Hmph!"

Seems pretty intentional.

Granted, Anakin's scene is much grimmer, which is kind of the point... Anakin never faces a "cave" trial to learn from it. Luke sees where his father failed, and saves them both. You could say Anakin and Luke both learn the lesson of the cave at the end of ROTJ simultaneously.


Both Skywalkers, after these failed mid-trilogy tests, have their first duel with a Sith and fail to defeat them.

A quite relevant role reversal here...

"Brave of you boy. I would have thought you learnt your lesson."
"I am a slow learner."

"You have learned much young one."
"You'll find I'm full of surprises!"
...
"You have learned to control your fear. Now release your anger!"

Not only do both Sith comment on braveness, and Anakin goes from receiver to dealer, but Luke is essentially referred to as a quick learner where Anakin is referenced as slow! Lol.


Edit-
One thing I forgot.

Anakin only tells Padme and Palpatine.
Padme: "To be angry is to be human."
Palatine: "It is only natural ... remember what you told me about your mother and the sand people?"

Luke is with Yoda when he fails and Yoda implores him to take it on board. Lucas does a lot of subtle stuff like this.


On Luke likely never turning... well we know that, because then SW wouldn't be SW, but in-universe he is clearly at risk.

 

Even in-universe, I’m pretty damned sure that Luke would never consciously turn. As I said, both Vader and the Emperor plan to turn him by getting him so riled up that he gets lost in the heat of the moment, and doesn’t realize that he’s turned until it’s too late. Remember that Vader had already tried turning Luke by promising him unlimited power and control at the end of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, and Luke cared so little about those things that he literally chose death over turning to the dark side.

As for the cave scene, the difference is that Luke didn’t proceed to go around and kill all the lizards, snakes and insects in the cave after decapitating the apparition of Vader. On the other hand, Vader slaughtered not only the guards and tribal leaders, but every single living being in the village…including defenseless children. Somehow, I just can’t envision Luke Skywalker murdering children. And Luke also never really had Vader’s lust for power. Again, I just can’t imagine hearing Luke deliver a psychotic rant where he proceeds to go on about how he’s entitled to be all-powerful, how he’s gonna be the most powerful Jedi ever, and blaming all of his life’s problems on others. Yeah, he gets frustrated with Uncle Owen and Yoda at various points, but I don’t recall him ever throwing a tantrum about how they were responsible for all of his life’s problems, or how they were holding him back because they were simply jealous of him. Luke actually LISTENS to Yoda’s wisdom, whereas his father just dismissed everything that Obi-Wan Kenobi tried to teach him (“It’s all Obi-Wan’s fault! He’s jealous! He’s holding me back!”). Luke was a fundamentally good person whose biggest flaw was that he could be impatient and impulsive at times. He didn’t always necessarily think things through before taking action (as demonstrated during the jailbreak in the first movie and his venture to Cloud City in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK). His father was an egomaniacal spoiled brat with a huge sense of entitlement who thought that he should just have unlimited power and everything else he wanted handed to him on a platter and lashed out in violent, murderous rage when things didn’t go his way. Luke is simply a better person than his father ever was…and that was even before his father officially pledged himself to the Emperor.

 

I agree with most of what you just said. Luke is easily the better man. I like Anakin too, but I would definitely rewrite AOTC to make him a little more relatable. I'm happy with how he is portrayed in TPM and ROTS for the most part, but the meat of his arc should happen in AOTC (as it does for Luke in ESB) and for me personally AOTC doesn't fully deliver.

"It's all Obi-Wan's fault!" is a line that has long bothered me. The timing is... off... I can understand he is being irrational because of what he has just gone through, perhaps it is partly out of his own feelings of guilt. But it sounds pretty douchey like this. The thing is... technically the following lines are correct - Obi-Wan possibly is a little jealous; they are like rival brothers orphaned by Qui-Gon's death. He expressed some scepticism to Qui-Gon regarding Anakin in TPM and is kind of a hard ass in AOTC compared to Qui-Gon's mentorship. And the greyness of the PT means that from a point of view he is indeed holding Anakin back - he tells Yoda and Mace that Anakin isn't ready for his first assignment but even they disagree.
I'm glad Obi and Anakin are portrayed more like equals at the start of ROTS but it is tragically too late.
But as I said, Anakin choosing to vent this frustration after wiping out an entire village is flawed writing, especially if you want the viewer to understand Anakin had a point.
The main reason he is blaming the Jedi is their restrictions (sever all ties to your past) and advice he doesn't wanna hear ("Dreams pass in time." ... "Rejoice for those who transform into the force.") have made him feel as powerless as he did as a slave. Remember his comment to Qui-Gon... "No one can kill a Jedi." "I wish that were so." He sees the Jedi as this idealistic fantasy, and when the harsh reality proves less pleasant he lashes out and questions his path.

Something I think is strongly implied to hold significance in Anakin and Luke's journeys is circumstance. Anakin often seems cursed where Luke is blessed. Don't get me wrong, Luke earns his place among the Jedi over the course of the OT more than Anakin ever really did. But Lucas structured the films in a way that he is unluckier than his son.
Like mentorship... Luke is trained by Obi-Wan then Yoda, whereas Anakin is by Obi-Wan then Palpatine.
And look at Obi-Wan's contrasting mentorship of the two... Obi-Wan introduces Luke to the force quite effectively, then becomes a force ghost and guides Luke from beyond, even helping Luke destroy the DS and find Yoda. With Anakin on the other hand he tries his best, but isn't suited to Anakin's needs, and more relevantly isn't even around at key moments;
- He is a little indifferent to him in TPM,
- he obliviously remarks (from another planet) "What in blazes is Anakin doing (on Tatooine)?" during the Tusken slaughter,
- is unconscious when Anakin murders Dooku,
- and by Palpatine's design is off-world during Anakin's turn and Order 66.

There is more to it than this, but watching the films with this in mind it is like the force is playing a cruel trick on the PT characters. Well everyone except Palpatine anyway.

 

The thing is, though, that Obi-Wan wasn’t just being mean to him for the sake of being mean. Pretty much everything that he says about Anakin Skywalker is true…and, as it turns out, Obi-Wan was absolutely right that sending Anakin and Natalie Portman off alone together on some romantic vacation is a disastrously horrible idea if Jedi aren’t supposed to fall in love. Obi-Wan knows that Anakin has been harboring a huge crush on Portman for the last decade and he knows that Anakin absolutely lacks any self-control whatsoever. All this proves is that Obi-Wan is the most intelligent, rational, level-headed character in the movie.

And it’s not as if Yoda is any less of a hard-ass towards Luke in EMPIRE.

YODA: I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: He will learn patience.
YODA: Hmm…much anger in him, like his father.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: Was I any different when you taught me?
YODA: No. He is not ready.
LUKE SKYWALKER: Yoda. I am ready. Ben—I can be a Jedi. Ben, tell him I’m—
YODA: Ready, are you? What know you ready? For 800 years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, hmm? The most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away…to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was, hmm? What he was doing. Hmph! Adventure. Ha! Excitement. Ha! A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!
OBI-WAN KENOBI: So was I, if you remember.
YODA: He is too old. Yes, too old to begin the training.
LUKE SKYWALKER: But I’ve learned so much.
YODA: Ahh…will he finish what he begins?
LUKE SKYWALKER: I won’t fail you. I’m not afraid.
YODA: Oh…you will be. You will be.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Oh, no. We’ll never get it out now.
YODA: So certain are you. [Sighs] Always with you it cannot be done. Hear you nothing that I say?
LUKE SKYWALKER: Master, moving stones around is one thing. This is totally different.
YODA: No! No different! Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.
LUKE SKYWALKER: All right. I’ll give it a try.
YODA: No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
LUKE SKYWALKER: I can’t. It’s too big.
YODA: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? And well you should not, for my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us…and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you—here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere! Yes…even between the land and the ship.
LUKE SKYWALKER: You want the impossible.

Yet when Yoda does lift the ship out of the swamp, Luke accepts his error and learns from it. Unlike his father,Luke understands that Yoda wasn’t just being a meaniehead. Luke understands that Yoda was trying to educate him.

YODA: Mm…
LUKE SKYWALKER: I don’t…I don’t believe it.
YODA: That is why you fail.

Luke accepts this without any further whining or complaining. And later on, when Luke receives his vision of Han Solo and Princess Leia being tortured, Yoda shakes his head and says, “Hmm…control, control. You must learn control!” And when Yoda tries to dissuade Luke from going to Cloud City by reminding him of his failure at the cave, Luke says, “But I’ve learned said so much since then.” If Obi-Wan had said that to Anakin, Anakin would’ve somehow tried blaming his failure at the cave on Obi-Wan.
But Luke accepts responsibility for his failure, rather than trying to blame it on others like a 2-year-old.

I refuse to hold Anakin to a different set of standards than Luke. As I said, Luke is impatient, but he shows a willingness to learn that his father never showed. He doesn’t just expect everything to be handed to him. Unlike his father, Luke is actually willing to work towards becoming a Jedi. Both Luke and Anakin were frequently scolded by their instructors. Luke probably didn’t enjoy it, but compared to his father, he handled it with dignity and aplomb.

Luke actually keeps an open mind, and listens to Yoda. Luke is willing to accept criticism and learn from his mistakes, unlike his father who just dismisses all criticism and expects to be handed everything. Luke certainly expressed frustration, but he doesn’t just blame everything that goes wrong on Yoda. He doesn’t whine about how, “Yoda’s just holding me back because he’s jealous of how awesome I am!”

In other words, if you have to make a conscious choice to turn to the dark side, then you also have to accept that there was never any real chance that Luke would turn. The idea of him deciding to turn would just be totally inconsistent with everything that we know about his character, because it’s been firmly established that, given a choice, Luke would rather die than turn to the dark side…and Vader knows this. That’s why he uses the tactic of getting Luke so enraged that he completely loses control over himself. The second that Luke realizes what he’s actually done, he tosses his lightsaber aside and reaffirms that he will never willingly turn, under any circumstances

Now, let’s say that the Emperor hadn’t intervened during that final confrontation between Luke and Vader. Luke never realized how perilously close he was to turning, and, as a result, ended up killing Vader. Would that have constituted a turn to the dark side? Acting in the heat of the moment, fueled by rage, not realizing what he was doing until it was too late.

 

Which was also in ROTS when Dooku goads Anakin into using the dark side to defeat him and again when Palpatine gets Anakin to attack Mace. Afterwards, the willingness to embrace the dark side comes. In both situations, it is to protect those that the Skywalker men care for.

According to Obi-wan when he's talking to Padme about what happened, when Anakin killed Dooku, that was the moment that he became Palpatine's Apprentice.

 

You know, you can be a bad guy without being the Emperor’s apprentice, right? I never said that he became the Emperor’s apprentice when he killed the Sand People. I said that’s when he stopped being a good person. Good and evil have nothing to do with oaths of allegiance. It’s about the actions you take. People who murder children are not good, no matter how much they delude themselves into thinking so. And this is yet another case where I don’t care what George Lucas says. If he thinks that child murderers are good people, then I have some serious questions about his moral compass.

And as I said, the idea that Luke Skywalker would ever be willing to embrace the dark side is so implausible as to be utterly preposterous. So let’s take a look at how the original trilogy describes the way it works.

YODA: Run! Yes! A Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression—the dark side of the Force are they, easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.
LUKE SKYWALKER: Vader. Is the dark side stronger?
YODA: No, no. No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
LUKE SKYWALKER: How do I know the good side from the bad?
YODA: You will know when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

During the Sand People massacre, Vader quite clearly uses the Force for attack. And he also struck me as being pretty angry and aggressive at that point. How does that scene NOT show him starting down the dark path? And now let’s look at what Obi-Wan and Yoda say to Luke as he leaves for Cloud City.

YODA: Luke, you must complete the training.
LUKE SKYWALKER: I can’t keep the vision out of my head. They’re my friends. I got to help them.
YODA: You must not go.
LUKE SKYWALKER: But Han and Leia will die if I don’t.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: You don’t know that. Even Yoda cannot see their fate.
LUKE SKYWALKER: But I can help them. I feel the Force.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force.
YODA: Yes! Yes! To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave.
LUKE SKYWALKER: But I’ve learned so much since then. Master agora, I promise to return and to finish what I’ve begun. You have my word.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer.
LUKE SKYWALKER: That’s why I have to go.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: Luke, I don’t want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader.
LUKE SKYWALKER: You won’t.
YODA: Stopped they must be. On this all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: Patience.
LUKE SKYWALKER: And sacrifice Han and Leia?
YODA: If you honor what they fight for…yes.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.
LUKE SKYWALKER: I understand. R2.
R2-D2: [Blip Beep]
LUKE SKYWALKER: Fire up the converters.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: Luke! Don’t give in to hate. That leads to the dark side.
YODA: Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.
LUKE SKYWALKER: I will. And I’ll return. I promise.
YODA: Told you, I did. Reckless is he. Now…matters are worse.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: That boy is our last hope.
YODA: No, there is another.

Again, he clearly gave into hate during the Sand People massacre. By any rational standard, that is when he started down the dark path. REVENGE OF THE SITH simply showed his further decline, as the Emperor convinced Vader to join him by offering “the quick and easy path” to save his wife. But such offers won’t work on Luke. THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK ends with Luke emphatically rejecting the quick and easy path. He’d rather die. Vader and the Emperor know that seduction won’t work with him as it did with Vader. Hence, they try to get him to give into hate. And before he dies, Yoda reiterates, “Remember…a Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware—anger, fear, aggression…the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Luke…Luke…do not…do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father’s fate you will.” Yoda knows that Luke is perfectly capable of resisting the temptations that his father gave into, but at this point, it’s about managing his anger, fear and aggression. That’s where the risk lies. Otherwise, Yoda would’ve reinforced the notion that the dark side was “quicker, easier, more seductive”, and told him not to take the “quick and easy path, as Vader did”. That’s why the Emperor and Vader are constantly trying to provoke Luke into a state of uncontrollable rage. The Emperor even basically tells Luke that he has no choice in the matter.

EMPEROR: You want this…don’t you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant.
LUKE SKYWALKER: No.
EMPEROR: It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now…mine.

And the Emperor reiterates this later, “Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!” Vader was angry. The Sand People children were defenseless. He took his weapon. He struck them down with all of his hatred. Ergo, his journey towards the dark side was complete.

I can name at least two instances, before the final attack on Vader, where Luke reaffirms that he will never, under any circumstances, willingly give himself to the dark side. The first is when Luke surrenders himself to Vader on Endor.

LUKE SKYWALKER: I will not turn, and you’ll be forced to kill me.
DARTH VADER: If that is your destiny.

Even Vader acknowledges that his son won’t willingly turn. Hence, the constant goading and provocation in the Throne Room.

The second occurs in the Throne Room. As Luke and Vader are fighting each other, the Emperor goads him on. “Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.” Luke responds to this realization by immediately deactivating his lightsaber. The message is clear throughout- Luke Skywalker will never willingly embrace the dark side, under any circumstances. There is zero chance of that ever happening. He’d rather die. Thus, the goal is to provoke him into an uncontrollable rage, wherein he won’t realize that he’s turned until it’s too late. But if that’s the case, that you can turn to the dark side without actively choosing to do so, then please explain to me how the Sand People massacre doesn’t represent his turn to the dark side. And I preemptively refuse to accept any explanation that says the reason he didn’t turn is that, rather than acknowledging what he’d done, he blamed it on Obi-Wan for “holding him back” and not showing him “the quick and easy path” to becoming “all-powerful”.

Now my argument is that Vader started down the dark path when he killed the Sand People. Maybe he spent the next few years lying to himself about it, deluding himself into thinking he was still a good person, but it ended up dominating his destiny and consuming him. I just kinda wish that the films themselves would acknowledge this obvious reality instead of trying to pretend that he’s still a good person afterwards. I mean, there’s really no other way you can brush aside the fact that he murdered children. Any explanation for how the Sand People massacre does not represent his turn to the dark side depends on a double standard. Luke never even came close to doing anything half as horrendous as the Sand People massacre, yet we’re supposed to buy that he’s teetering on the edge of the dark side at the end of JEDI while simultaneously cutting Anakin a huge break for committing mass murder. Anakin’s allowed to give into his anger all he wants, as long as he keeps his Jedi badge, yet the moment Luke begins to give into his anger, we’re supposed to be all worried that that’ll make him evil. As I said, I refuse to engage that double standard. The minute you start murdering defenseless children in anger, you’ve turned to the dark side. Period. If you don’t acknowledge that, then you must also acknowledge that the idea of Luke ever turning to the dark side is utterly preposterous, since it’s abundantly clear that he’ll never swear allegiance to either the dark side or the Emperor.

 

When Anakin kills the Tuskens, he's not evil. He is still a good person, because he hasn't embraced the dark side yet. We see the beginning traits of it with his obsession with power and his emotional outburst on Geonosis, but he hasn't committed himself to the dark side yet. I never said that Anakin didn't start down the dark path, but the difference is that he could still pull away from it. And yes, while Luke says that he will never turn, the fact that he nearly did shows that it isn't impossible for it to happen. One of the things that both Lucas and Kasdan agreed upon was that Luke wasn't 100% okay after his fight with Vader in TESB. Part of that was Luke using the Force choke on the Gamorreans, part of it was his aggressiveness when confronting Jabba, the anger he felt towards Obi-wan, his lashing out when shot in his cybernetic hand. Kasdan even wanted to change the Lightsaber blade to illustrate that we don't know what way Luke would go.

So just because he swore off turning, he was still vulnerable which is what we see. The idea is that the dark side has to be faced and acknowledged, which is why Lucas took Yoda and Obi-wan out of the duel and tried to find something that would put Luke in the situation to attack Vader and come close to turning. And part of that was that Luke doesn't finish his training, to illustrate that he has what he needs to fight the Sith, but he's not nearly as prepared as he could have been if he had stayed and finished the training.

 

Interestingly, Anakin Skywalker is believed to have Borderline Personality Disorder (not to be confused with Bipolar Disorder). Borderlines are obsessive people who will be very close, but when they sense rejection (in Shimi's case ultimate rejection, death) they switch into a gear and state of mind where they become unstable, violent, and so forth. Borderlines eventually evolve from an actual rejection to trigger their maniac state or mood swings to fear of rejection. If they sense they are going to be rejected or think someone is about to reject them, it triggers their mood swings. Granted, in the case of Anakin, the Dark Side is a factor, but I agree with psychology on this one, he probably already was Borderline and then add the Dark Side to it and you have the perfect Sand Storm for the Tuskans.

 

Another reason that Anakin isn't completely evil is as Luke said, there is still good within him. Palpatine couldn't purge it from him completely like he did Dooku. Anakin didn't automatically become evil because he killed the Tusken Raiders. He was still good deep down, struggling against who and what he was becoming. But he never stopped having that sense of goodness within him. Obi-wan didn't sense it, but Luke would have had he been there on Mustafar. You can judge him as evil and that is right. But we know what Luke said was true, unless you think Luke doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

Anakin tells Padme that Jedi don't have nightmares. Was he being literal, or just trying to soothe her?

 

You make a valid point darth-sinster. Anakin was not fully overcome by the Dark Side. In fact, I read even when he is in the Gold Age of Darth Vader (The Purge Period, post ROTS) he thought of Padme, and how he cannot go back to Light (out of guilt and shame). In fact, Kylo Ren's words, "Forgive me, I feel call of Light," fits probably how Anakin once he was Darth Vader felt in his medical chamber (see ESB).

As for Count Dooku, I do not think he was fully a Dark Sider. I think he was deceived into believing that Galaxy would be split between two forms of government, The Separatists and The Republic; the Separatists like himself would be free of the corruption of the courts (as Mace Windu mentions in ROTS). I surmise Dooku envisioned new systems that were free of bureaucracy of The Republic; and he may have hoped Palpatine/Sidious, his master, would be content to let Dooku control the Separatists, while Palpatine controlled the Republic/Empire (a fatal mistake). Dooku knew that Palpatine was not trust worthy, and even offered Obi-Wan a chance to destroy Palpatine, "What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a dark lord of the Sith?" Kenobi responds, "No, that's not possible. The Jedi would sense it." Dooku, "The Dark Side has clouded their vision. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith lord called Darth Sidious." Kenobi responds he does not believe Dooku, and yet Yoda at beginning of film, and throughout ROTS keeps saying, "The Dark Side clouds everything, impossible to see, the future is." (AOTC). Dooku makes his offer to destroy the Sith, "Join me Obi-wan, and together, we can destroy the sith!" Now did Dooku mean join me, in sense of the Dark Side or merely as coupe de etate? Since he says, "destroy the Sith," I argue he meant to reverse Palpatine's plans, but we will never know. I think Dooku was disillusioned, and he chose the political path and the Dark Side in much the same way Saruman (played by Christopher Lee too) did in The Lord of the Rings, fearing the power of Dark Lord (Sauron) and in this case the Dark Lord of Sith, decided to side with Dark Siders because he believed it was the only way to survive in coming regime.

Back to Anakin, there was similar reason for his fall. He wanted to save his wife from death, which was created by losing Shimi, "I wasn't strong enough to save you mom. I wasn't strong enough, but I promise I won't fail again," (AOTC), and he says to Padme, "I will become more powerful than any Jedi, I promise you! I will even keep people from dying!" (AOTC). He says this again alluding to the lose of Shimi, so in point of fact, the lose of Shimi helped Anakin fall, for it is at the Opera in ROTS, that Palpatine tells Anakin about "Darth Plageuis the Wise, he could even keep people from dying." (ROTS). But to be sure, Anakin's motive probably was never to be a Dark Sider, hence Obi-Wan's line at Mustafar, "You have become the very thing you swore to destroy." (ROTS). Anakin motivated by Shimi's death wanted to keep his wife, Padme, from dying, and this path unwittingly lead him to the Dark Side.

 

He tries to avoid the theme Men often do it in such situations but as in many other cases Padme makes him confess the true. She fails in the last part of ROTS because he is not belonging to himself anymore, he begins to fall.
By the way great observations about the premonitions. Anakin looses the 2 persons that not only really cared about him (Obi Wan also did) but they know very well who Anakin really is. Many users here believe that Luke was just good and nothing could change that and Anakin was just bad and nothing could change that. Well, is not so simple at all. Anakin was good person, Shmi knew that, Padme knew that and Luke felt and understand that. Actually his real feat was that he came back from where when nobody could (all the Jedi tought that is impossible to come back from the Dark Side), but indeed he was the chosen one.. for a reason. And Shmi and Padme loved him unconditionally for what he really is. If Shmi was alive he could survive their separation without going mad about Padme and if Padme could live... The burden of grief and despair that he wore in his 25 years old shoulders was too much. Not to mention the political intrigues, war and expectations to the chosen one. Is not that Lucas justifies his actions, he just shows how a good hearted, loyal and emotional man can fall in the darkness but also can come back, he can be redeemed again because of love.

About the thread: my answer is No. It is crucial event in Anakin‘s life but Palpatine only used the consequences as he always did.

darth-sinister Speaking of that I think Luke didn‘t fell because of his father. Pure and simple. His father spared his life twice (and after that saved him from the emperor) but also showed him the mirror of what Luke could be: a servant of evil. I think Luke was about to win the duel only because Anakin allowed that: he already was in conflict with his Vader persona and that can be seen during the fight: he didn‘t use all his strenght against a relatively untrained duelist. If we could see the face of Vader when he was on the floor I‘m sure that it would express full surprise: is that really my good-hearted son? Well, in the end both father and son saved themselves by sacrificing for the other. Vader had more to sacrifice because he had to complete his mission, of course.

 

Um, how did Luke nearly turn? When did he ever come close to willingly embracing the dark side? The fact is that he didn’t and you know he didn’t. You’re applying a double standard here.

If Luke loses control in a fit of anger, he’s turned to the dark side and become evil.

If his father loses control in a fit of anger, well, we have to make all the excuses in the world for why the precious little snowflake is still a good person.

Every single time that Luke is presented with an opportunity to willingly embrace the dark side, he rejects it. He rejects it at the end of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. When Luke surrenders himself to his father, he reasserts that he will not turn. When the Emperor praises Luke for using his aggressive feelings, Luke immediately deactivates his lightsaber, and Vader acknowledges, “Obi-Wan has taught you well.” In other words, Vader realizes that Luke caught himself and regained control of the situation, and commends Obi-Wan for doing a good job of training Luke to reject his aggressive feelings. Admit it, Luke would never embrace the dark side, nor would he ever commit himself to it. Now let’s compare Luke to his father.

When the Emperor says, “The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities…some consider to be unnatural”, Anakin responds with eagerness and curiosity.

ANAKIN SKYWALKER: Is it possible to learn this power?
EMPEROR: Not from a Jedi.

Can you imagine that exchange ever taking place with Luke? Can you imagine Luke ever expressing interest in learning the powers of the dark side the way his father did. As I’ve pointed out a million times in this thread, Vader actually offered him that power and knowledge at the end of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. Luke rejected it, whereas his father embraced it.

Either you apply the same set of standards to both of them or you accept that Anakin turned to the dark side during the Sand People massacre.

a) Mentioning Obi-Wan really weakens your argument, since all that does is remind me of the fact that the backstory of RETURN OF THE JEDI is not what we see in the prequels, since in that film, Vader clearly says, “Obi-Wan once thought as you do.” So which is it? Did Obi-Wan once think as Luke does…or did he just immediately give up on Vader?

b) Vader ceased being evil when he chose to accept responsibility for his actions and sacrifice his life to save his son. And even Luke isn’t delusionally naïve about it as his mother was.

DARTH VADER: It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your Master now.
LUKE SKYWALKER: Then my father is truly dead.

Luke is willing to accept the current reality of the situation. It’s only later, when Luke again senses Vader’s internal conflict through the Force, that he resumes trying to reason with Vader.

LUKE SKYWALKER: Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict.
DARTH VADER: There is no conflict.
LUKE SKYWALKER: You couldn’t bring yourself to kill me before. I don’t believe you’ll destroy me now.
DARTH VADER: You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny

c) How is this not yet another heinous double standard where we make a million excuses for Anakin’s crimes, yet condemn Luke the minute he even comes close to doing something wrong?

EDIT: This is pure speculation here, but what if there’s such a thing as the grey side of the Force? Somewhere in between light and dark? I will accept that Luke was in danger of turning to the grey side of the Force, if you will concede that his father turned to the grey side when he murdered the Sand People.

 

Doubtful, Palpatine simply exploited the opportunity I think.


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Luke's whole confrontation with the Sith is based on the fact that Luke hasn't finished his training and that he has an attachment to his friends. When Palpatine reveals the truth about the Death Star, he is goading Luke into killing him based on the fact that Luke feels powerless to stop his loved ones from dying. The Sith offer to complete his training. And later, Vader finds out about Leia which goes back to Obi-wan warning Luke to bury his feelings deep down, otherwise they'd be used against him. So Luke is faced with the realization that he isn't strong enough to protect Leia and this leads to his lashing out at Vader. Luke would kill his father and like with Dooku before him, it would put him in the frame of mind where Palpatine would offer to complete his training and teach him how to go beyond what he has learned. Much in the same manner as after killing Dooku, Anakin wanted more power.

He didn't give up on Vader, since he tries to tell Anakin that he's been manipulated and used by Palpatine to do his dirty work. He doesn't immediately start fighting him and he also hesitates to try and kill him, before finally making an attempt to do so.

But Padme was right. There was good in him. We see that good after the killing is over and before talking to Sidious when he is shown to be crying.

Spoiler

"This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done, but he’s now committed himself a path that he may not agree with, but he is going to go along anyway.

It’s the one moment that says he’s self-aware. He's rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now.

You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi Wan. He knows that Padme not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he’s become the devil.

The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the Force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

I didn't condemn Luke, nor do I not condemn Anakin. Luke was right to back down and do what he did at the end. Anakin was wrong to do what he did. But that doesn't change that there was good within him, when he was doing these evil acts. Anakin kept fighting against what he was becoming and failed in his endeavors. Luke succeeds where his father failed. That's always been the case, even before the story became what it became.

As to the gray aspect, the only gray is the thought process of the Sith.

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they’re good and Lord Sidious thinks he’s bringing peace to the galaxy because there is so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on and now he’s going to be able to straighten everything out, which maybe true but the price the galaxy is going to have to pay for it is way too much."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

In that case, Anakin thinks that what he did with the Tuskens and with his betrayal was the right thing to do, but he also knows deep down that he shouldn't have ever done that. That it was wrong and that he was wrong, but he's also justifying his actions to himself in order to deal with what he's done. He blames Obi-wan, because he knows where the real fault lies, but he cannot admit it to himself. He blames the Separatist Council and the Jedi Order for what caused the Clone Wars, but knows that it was the Sith who were at fault. But he cannot admit it to himself.