Was the Emperor's overconfidence really his weakness?

The way I see it, Palpatine's confidence was a great asset to him. His vehement conviction that he was the only one fit to rule the galaxy drove him to make the necessary sacrifices to rule. He never faltered for a moment in his plans because he was absolutely certain he was right and could not be stopped, and operating in that mindset led him within inches of his goal: total control over the galaxy. He would have succeeded, too, had he not been betrayed by Vader at the last moment...turns out his real weakness was his faith in his friends.

Luke is another story. With virtually no Jedi training under his belt, he confronted Palpatine, the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. Then, after disarming Vader, he was so certain that he had thwarted the Emperor's plans that he discarded his only means of defense and taunted him. At which point, he was electrocuted within an inch of his life by the man he was sure he had overcome, only surviving because of Vader's impulsive decision to change sides. If overconfidence was anyone's weakness, it was Luke's!

 

There was a reason Luke made the decision to throw his lightsaber away and confront Palpatine like that. It was no surprise to him the fact that Palpatine ended up assaulting him. Perhaps he didn?t know how the Emperor would?ve attacked him, but it?s pretty clear that it would?ve happened. Luke wasn?t just throwing away his lightsaber. That?s only looking at it from a two-dimensional approach. You have to look deeper and recognize that he was also throwing away his anger, his hatred, and his fear, which is why the line was followed with ?I am a Jedi, like my father before me.? Could it have backfired? Of course, but that was a risk he was perfectly willing to take because his goal was to save his father.

Palpatine, on the other hand, was so sure of his gift of foresight that he thought he knew exactly how the future would unfold, unlike Luke who had to take a risk. Palpatine was so sure that Vader would be on a leash until he died and he was so sure that he would turn Luke to the dark side. He never, ever considered the possibility that Vader would turn against him, because he was overconfident in his ability to predict the future. Not that I blame him, though. He got everything right throughout the entire saga. He just missed the moment of truth.

Finally, Palpatine?s ?faith in his friends,? as you referred to it, wasn?t faith in Vader. Sith don?t have faith in one another. Like Palpatine, they have faith in themselves. Palpatine had faith in his ability to accurately foresee all future events, and he was wrong when it mattered the most. It cost him his life.

 

Palps messed up the whole thing at Endor.

He should have had a bigger, better garrison protecting the shield.

That is what Luke meant when he smirked and brought up the overconfidence issue.

Luke knew the Rebels were tenacious, resourceful. and gritty, Palps should have figured it out too - especially after Luke and the Crew sunk Palp's first BattleStation in 1977.

 

vehement conviction? More like he was a megalomaniac. He was absolutely certain he was right and could not be stopped...other than you know, his being wrong. Considering the tactics Palpatine used to convert Vader to the Dark Side, betraying the Jedi, I don't think Palpatine really has much room to complain about Vader betraying him. Isn't "treachery the way of the Sith", afterall? For Palpatine to be surprised by that is the equivalent of a mistress, who enables a husband to cheat, and then finds out that the husband was cheating on her too...well, what did you expect? You already knew they cheated! Palpatine already knew Vader switched sides once, don't act surprised if he does it again.

Your attempt to revise the scene on ROTJ is interesting, but ultimately, fruitless. Luke DID have the Emperor beat. He knew full well when he surrendered to Vader on Endor that he was probably going to his death. He did know that the rebels were going to try to blow up the shield generator, leaving the DSII wide open to attack. Luke didn't discard his only means of defense, he wasn't concerned with saving his own life. He was concerned about stalling for a little time, to allow his friends to succeed...and they did. Luke knew that the Emperor had minutes to live, because it was obvious from his taunts that Palpatine didn't think the rebels could succeed...just like he didn't think they would succeed at Yavin IV. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Palpatine got fooled twice. All Luke was doing was preventing Palpatine from realizing the danger he was in until it was too late. That isn't overconfidence, that is simply knowing something the other side doesn't know. Further, Luke's lightsaber was hardly his only defense. His biggest defense, and the one that did end up saving his life, was his faith in his father, Anakin Skywalker, and his ability to defeat the monster Darth Vader, and reclaim his mantle as Jedi Knight. Luke was right. Anakin won. He defeated Vader within his soul, Anakin killed Palpatine, returns to the light side, happy ending.

Palpatine taunted Luke about his faith in his friends being his weakness...yet, it was Luke's faith in his friends to blow up the shield generator, his faith that his father still existed within Vader, that saves the day. Luke was RIGHT. Palpatine's overconfidence prevents him from seeing the danger he was in, prevented him from seeing how stupid it was to attempt to kill his apprentice's son right in front of him, knowing how Anakin reacts to the deaths of family members, it was Palpatine's overconfidence that gets him killed. Palpatine was WRONG.

Deal with it.

 

His entire bid to turn Luke was overtly pathetic. He had a superb game plan with Anakin that unfolded over a decade and a half and ultimately provided Anakin with a brutally simple choice: Join the Sith, or watch Padme die.

There was no such cleverness to his plan for Luke. From the film, it was an attempt to goad Luke into basically getting angry, but beyond power there was ultimately no incentive for Luke to join with him. Vader honestly made a better play in TESB with his offer of ending the war and bringing order to the galaxy than Palpatine did with his seriously botched attempt that ultimately offered absolutely nothing beneficial for Luke. Vader approached Luke in a way that seemed almost partner-esque; with Palpatine, it was "you're my slave and you should like what I have to say even though I'm patronizing and belittling you."

And then there's the whole thing with attempting to brutally murder Luke while Vader is standing there watching. I guess Palpatine forgot Vader gets angry when people hurt his family.

 

lol ... not the smartest thing to forget.

I always found it a bit funny how Palpatine keeps saying the name SKYWALKER while slowly frying Luke and Anakin Skywalker standing right behind Palpatine.

But then again that scene is the most important scene in the entire Saga. In my oppinion it sums up everything Lucas wants to say with his space operatic saga. Good will ultimately defeat evil and love conquers everything.

 

at least that is what I see as the most important scene in the entire saga.

 

PWF, the main problem I have with your posts is that you make these claims that are completely unsupportable based on evidence, and then complain that nobody agrees with you...what did you expect? Really? You insist on taking a point of view that simply has absolutely no merit in fact. Lets be honest here though. I am not telling you anything you don't already know. You know your positions have no merit, you provide them only to stir the pot, to ruffle feathers. Then, when someone points out the glaring flaws, you act all put out.

Bring some evidence. Provide something to support your positions other than wishful thinking. Those that reject your positions have the entire movie plot, expanded universe, and quotes from those that helped create the GFFA, including Lucas. When the creator of the entire fantasy world Star Wars exists as says the Emperor is the personification of evil, a thread trying to claim Palpatine was really the good guy and that the heroes are the bad guys, completely ignoring everything in the films is not going to taken seriously.

But, you knew that before you ever posted...didn't you? Stop acting like you are being martyred for creating threads based in fantasy. Palpatine was evil, the rebels were the good guys, and the sooner you can accept that, the sooner you might be taken seriously.

 

Darth_Davi, I'm doing nothing to the effect of acting like a "martyr". I'm simply saying that if you disagree with me, I'd hope you could manage to be polite about it.

Also, I'm not discussing whether or not the Emperor is the bad guy in this thread. I'm positing the question as to how accurately Luke and Palpatine sized each other up on the Death Star. If you're still upset that I think Palpatine isn't all evil and you feel the need to be rude to me about it, do it in that thread.

I've got my way of interpreting the movies just as everyone else does. I know the movies intend to present Palps as the villain and Luke as the hero, but there's no reason you should take such offense at my preference to look at it the other way around. Being taken seriously is not my concern so much as is being addressed in a tone that isn't hostile.

...

Anyway! In regards to my original post:

I'm not saying that Palpatine isn't overconfident towards the end of ROTJ, but I don't think that his overconfidence alone is what lead to his downfall. I think between Palpatine and Luke, each is guilty of the weakness one attributes to the other.

As I've stated, Luke failed to "redeem" Vader easily as he'd expected to, and had Vader held out for a moment longer before turning on the Emperor, Luke would have died, accomplishing nothing in the process. He didn't really have much of a plan, because he was so confident that he would just be successful.

As for the Emperor, he certainly has become somewhat overconfident by the end of RotJ, but I don't think that's what ultimately caused his failure. His reliance on Vader's loyalty proved to be fatal, so it could fairly be said that he was undone by his faith in his friends (considering that at that point, Vader is the closest thing he has to a "friend").

 

I think PALP WAS FRAMED is just having us all on. No way he buys this stuff! He is trying to goad you guys to the DARK SIDE! Don't fall for it! *S*

Acceptance, stoicism, even willing submission to a higher power (the "will of the Force" in this case) can certainly come off as arrogance, but I don't think they are the same. Luke isn't arrogant or smug. He simply has faith. He knows he isn't going to defeat the Emperor with a lightsaber, with physical conflict. Either Vader will turn back from the Dark Side, or he won't... but all the lightsaber skills in the world aren't going to matter at that point. Luke accepts that. He accepts that there is nothing he can DO, not in the physical sense, not in the combative sense, to change things. He takes a HUGE leap of faith, and throws away his weapon. What will be, will be.

In a way, this contrasts with the scene with Mace from ROTS. I think we are meant to believe that if Mace had lowered his weapon, Anakin may not have fallen. We don't KNOW that. And we don't know how it would have played out. Maybe Palps would have fried Mace anyway, even with Mace lowering his weapon, and Anakin, seeing that, would realize his mistake. Or maybe not. And there is certainly nothign RATIONALLY wrong with Mace striking. But I think the parallels in the two scene are intentional.

At any rate... I don't even know that I see the Emperor as overconfident necessarily. After all, he has a pretty good run, and looked to be within a couple of seconds of killing Luke. But yeah, he did blow it there at the end, being a LITTLE too sure that Vader was either too weak or too in his thrall to betray him. Bummer for him. More so because they were right next to one of this big, no safety rail giant pits that seem to populate the SW universe for some reason. Game over.

Shadow

PS - Don't think it really needs to be said, BUT... Vader wasn't Palpatine's FRIEND. He was closer to his SLAVE. At best, he was his servant. The Sith relationship between Master and Apprentice is, indeed, a DARK and unpleasant thing.

 

Sorry but there is no argument. He WAS overconfident which is why he played games with Luke for ages. He never took Vader into account. He though Vader was his forever. He never thought he could turn back to the lightside. He said he had forseen the future- he was confident in his vision, but Yoda had always said that the future was always in movement. That was Palps mistake.

 

I half agree with palpswasframed.
Luke was overconfident in his ability to turn Vader, he even went that's why you couldn't destroy me, that's why you won't take me to your emperor now or similar, and next thing he's on DS2. He also didn't really have a plan, just refusing to fight and talking about vader's conflict and so IMO he was overconfident. His faith in his friends was not his weakness as they succeeded, and his faith in his father paid off.

Palpatine was overconfident, no-one can deny that. He assumed he could turn Luke easily by getting Luke to unleash his anger and hate on Vader, and he even goes 'use your aggressive feelings boy, let the hate flow through you' prompting Luke to stop fighting, so he even helped Luke to stop falling to using the darkside in parts. Palpatine did however have faith in Vader, whatever he was to him slave friend ally, he had faith in him, hence why Vader was able to do what he did. Afterall he knew Vader would block Luke's blow, and he has been his servant for 20 or so years I'd say its acceptable to place some faith in him.

So basically Luke was overconfident, Palpatine was overconfident and placed too much faith in Vader.

 

Not only that, but Vader was plotting against him, Palpatine knew Vader was plotting against him, and Palpatine was plotting against Vader, and Vader knew Palpatine was plotting against him. Why do you think Palpatine wanted Luke so badly? So he could replace Vader. All of this complaining about how Palpatine trusted Vader and how Vader betrayed him is laughable. There was no trust whatsoever between them. No honor among Sith, as it were. Certainly there should have not been any surprise by what happened. I do think it needs to be said, because I don't think PWF gets it...so I will repeat your key sentence...VADER WASN'T PALPATINE'S FRIEND.

Your analysis of the relationship between Palpatine and Vader is very short, but directly to the point. Palpatine used Vader, as a tool to be discarded when he could replace him with a better tool. He saw Luke as a better tool, so he tried to manipulate Luke into turning to the dark side, by killing his own father. There was no friendship, no trust, no honor, just the Emperor, and an entire galaxy of tools for him to use as he saw fit. Palpatine and Vader were never equals, never would have been. Not if Palpatine ever had his say in the matter.

Fortunately for the galaxy, the Chosen One lived up to his destiny. Thanks to the brave efforts of his son, Anakin Skywalker destroyed the Sith. First, he destroyed the monster Darth Vader that lived within himself, and then he destroyed Darth Sidious. The fact that Palpatine couldn't see his own destruction coming is proof enough of his own overconfidence. Throughout the movies we are given glimpses to his supernatural ability to predict the future/make that future happen, yet, his efforts on the DSII can only be described as failure.

Further, how is Luke being overconfident even a debate? The entire notion is ridiculous. He was only bold in front of the Emperor because he knew in a few minutes, his friends were going to blow the entire Death Star II up, with him, Vader and Palpatine with it. Luke didn't turn himself in to Vader to get in a position to kill Palpatine. That was the Rebellion's goal, not his. Luke's mission was to turn his father back to the light. He had faith in his friends, trusted the force, and in the end, was vindicated for his faith. Luke accomplished his mission, his friends accomplished theirs, and Palpatine's Empire went down. And Palpatine absolutely didn't see it coming.

How can you be overconfident when destiny is on your side? The seeds for Palpatine's destruction were sown during the events of ROTS, when he flat out lied to Vader that Padme died before giving birth. Then, 20 years later, that seed sprouted when Vader found out Luke existed, and that in turn bore fruit 3 years after that, when Anakin Skywalker finishes the job he was born to do. To put it simply, Palpatine had it coming. It took a long time, but, he reaped what he sowed. Mess with the force, the force messes with you back...and he never saw it coming.

In the end, Palpatine's efforts were an epic, colossal FAIL. PWF claims Palpatine's overconfidence was an asset, not a weakness...yet completely ignores the fact that Palpatine's overconfidence is what does him in. His overconfidence kills him, yet, it is an asset not a weakness? Sorry, not buying it.

 

As far as he knew that was true. That's not a lie.

 

Everyone, please remember that in the CT board we discuss the films, not the fans. If you believe someone is just posting stuff like this as one big joke, you're entitled to that opinion. That said, until there's any reason to believe otherwise, this is nothing more than a series of good-faith posts that happen to contain opinions different than everyone else's. There's nothing wrong with that because it's not harming anyway.

If there's any reason to believe any user, regardless of their opinion, the threads the post, etc., is acting as a troll, baiting people, whatever, etc., then Senny and I are perfectly capable of handling it when that time comes. If you have any concerns, our PM boxes are always open to you. Thanks for keeping this in mind as you continue this discussion without trying to pick apart the OP's intent.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't overconfident. However, that same overconfidence appears to have been with him since we first see him setting his plans in motion in Episode I, and every major risk he takes in his attempts to gain power ends up paying off. If he wasn't so absolutely certain it was going to work, it probably wouldn't have.

In the end, his downfall was due in equal part to his relative lack of preparation for Luke's visit (overconfidence) and his inability to foresee Vader's betrayal (faith in his friends, though as has been stated, it's a stretch to truly call Vader a "friend").

His overconfidence never caught up with him until the moment before what would have been the killing blow to Luke. His choice to kill Luke slowly to hear him beg was what ultimately did him in; he was too caught up indulging himself to realize that Luke's cries would be sufficient to make Vader change sides, but the thought never crossed his mind because he had known Vader to be unquestioningly loyal for such a long time.

 

So, his overconfidence was an asset up until the time he miscalculated, and only then it was a weakness, but with Luke, his overconfidence was a weakness, even though he proved correct...Trying to have it both ways? You can't argue that Overconfidence is a strength when it works, and then claim that Luke was overconfident, and it was a weakness, even though it worked. You have previously claimed that Luke was the one that was overconfident, and that it was bad...yet, in that situation, Luke was right...then, at the same time, you claim Palpatine's overconfidence was good...until it wasn't. Make up your mind.

You also need to have a better argument to support your claim that Palpatine was surprised by Vader's "betrayal". Sith apprentices ALWAYS turn on their master, ever since they went to two Sith only at one time. That is the way of the Sith. We directly see Vader plotting against Palpatine in TESB, and yet, you want us to accept that Palpatine was completely blind to what was going on? That he had no idea that Vader was possibly conspiring against him? C'mon. Really? You would also have us believe that Palpatine conveniently forgets the reasons why Anakin ever joined him in the first place, to protect his family...So, Palpatine just had a brain fart? Is that what you are suggesting? That he somehow forgot the ten years he spent slowly corrupting Anakin, that the reasons for his turn somehow just slipped his mind, so that when he threatens Luke, he is genuinely shocked by Vader defending his own son?

Your entire argument depends on Palpatine's sheer stupidity...he would have to have been incredibly stupid to think that somehow, unlike all other Sith masters, his apprentice wouldn't dare plot against him, despite thousands of years of history that said otherwise. Then, he would have to be incredibly stupid a second time, in forgetting how Vader became his apprentice in the first place. You don't get to be Emperor of the galaxy by being that stupid. Everything about Palpatine in the films suggests he is very deliberate, that his plans are well thought out, that he knows exactly how to execute them properly, and can take advantage of unexpected situations. Everything we see about Palpatine suggests there is no way he would blindly trust Vader, nor forget how the leash around Vader's neck came to be there. Your premise depends on Palpatine being very, very dumb when it comes to his apprentice, and that simply does not fit in with Palpatine's character, at least not as you have previously tried to portray him. No way Palpatine would make mistakes like that, not with Vader. Not with the Chosen One, destined to destroy the Sith. (which is accomplished, thanks to Luke)

See, in order to accept your arguments, it requires Palpatine to make foolish decisions...which he certainly did, but as soon as you admit that Palpatine is capable of making foolish decisions, you are stuck with also opening the door to Palpatine being overconfident, to making Luke's claim correct. In a way, you have defeated your own argument that it was Palpatine's faith in friends and Luke's overconfidence really, switching the roles, based on your premise that Palpatine made serious errors in judgment regarding Vader...

If he is capable of making serious errors in judgment, (which you admit he is) yet still insist that everything is proceeding "as he foresees it" (it clearly wasn't) then he was vastly overconfident, and Luke was right. We know Palpatine was wrong about Luke's faith in his friends, the destruction of the DSII is all the proof you need for that, but, now we can also prove that Luke was right about Palpatine's weakness.

What is overconfidence, anyway? Being confident beyond your ability to back it up. Luke backed his confidence in his friends up, so he wasn't overconfident, he was the right amount of confident. Palpatine couldn't back his confidence up, and dies, so he was overconfident. Like I said...it ain't bragging if you can do it...Luke did it, Palpatine failed to do it.

 

I do want to throw in my two cents here.

Possibly when Luke cut off Vader's hand, and saw that it was pretty much what he would become should he kill Vader, at the same time Vader is begging for mercy, perhaps it is in this moment he is Anakin Skywalker again ("I am a Jedi, like my father before me"), but still confused and now flipping between Vader and Anakin. Eventually, Anakin obviously wins over as he can't stand the sight of his own son being slowly killed. Plus the whole Sith thing of killing the master stuff as noted before. Thus, more "overconfidence" stuff. It was something Palpatine never expected.

Just think about it. This whole new persona, Darth Vader, is only created when Palpatine tempts Anakin with the power to save Padme's life, because Anakin is stupid and can't interpret his own visions. A secondary personality is created ("Gone is the boy you trained; consumed by Darth Vader") to help ease the tensions (To learn the Dark Side or not to learn the Dark Side, that is the question). It took the death of one Jedi to turn him over, it took the almost-death of another to turn him back. It would appear that Vader learned from his mistake with Mace Windu at this point, and wouldn't let the Jedi Order be destroyed.

After all, Vader was the chosen one, and therefore destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, which he ultimately did. If you're still wondering how this all fits into the overconfidence part, I'll simply borrow a Palpatine line as well. "If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force." You have to look at this from a different point of view sometimes to understand things better.

But ultimately, it was Palpatine's overconfidence that was his weakness.

 

Overconfidence was not Palpatines only diadvantage. In fact is was not even his greatest disadvantage in his "battle" against Luke.

To quote the movie Manhunter.

Hannibal Lecter: Then how did you catch me?

William Graham: You had disadvantages.

Hannibal Lecter: What disadvantages?

William Graham: You're insane.




Sorry guys. I just couldn't help myself. But the thing is that as I see it Palpatine is clearly insane. And that insanity may have resulted in a major case of overconfidence.

 

Okay, I can totally see a Palpatine was actually insane by ROTJ argument, his behavior could certainly be explained by insanity...I have called him a megalomaniac, but, if you were argue that it was his insanity that led to it, I don't know if I can come up with an effective counter argument...other than perhaps that he didn't seem insane at all during the prequels, but, still had the same ego...its a pretty weak counter. Palpatine=nuts could certainly fit within his character in ROTJ. Especially since I just finished reading The Last Command last night, and with Joruus C'baoth still fresh in my head, the idea that Palpatine was crazy on top of everything else does not seem far fetched at all.

 

With out a doubt his overconfidence was his downfall. He should've put more troops like a garrison, more imperial walkers, speeder bikes, snipers all around the sheild generator, the doors tamper proof, a back up shield generator some where else planet side. That's just a few things he should've done planet side. His space fleet was ok but I would've let the capital ships attack the rebels and fired the death stars main weapon at the same time to prevent them from even getting that close to the death star or endor.. I would've also eliminated those blasted ewoks as well.

Plus he played to much with Luke, he could've killed him without standing up. "You pay the price for your lack of vision" No my friend you did you couldn't see that Luke had anger yes, but his heart was to pure as he never really suffered any emotional loss as anakin did as a child. Yea he lost his aunt and uncle and his father turned to the darkside (killed as he was told) but he didn't have a pregnant wife. Luke wouldn't have turned with knowing that he and his father would share the same fate and serve along side with the emperor as a puppet to him.

And with his vision in question how didn't he see that vader would betray him in the end. Palpatine felt Vaders conflict when he spoke to him in the throne room. "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear lord vader" Come on red flag anyone...I would've put vader in the main laser tube and shot his cyborg behind to ackbars ship.

 

Dont forget,Palps said to Vader when Vader felt Lukes presence,Palps said,"Strange that I have Not."

Palps was so overconfident in himself,his plans and Vader doing his bidding,that he never expected Vader to feel Luke's presence before he did.Since Vader told him about Lukes arrival in the throne room,he simply took it as part of his foresight(which was flawed in how it was supposed to happen in his mind)..."he will come to you,then you will bring him before me."

Palps,before Luke was born,had managed to get everything he wanted.That will inspire some serious overconfidence for someone in power for so long.He did get concerned that Luke could destroy them in ESB though.But when ROTJ came,Palps felt Luke would never be able to turn his Father back nor Luke Himself from the dark side.

 

I think that might have been partially his weakness.

Though I also don't think he ever thought Vader would have betrayed him.

 

His overconfidence was definitely his weakness, which included not thinking Vader would ever betray him. It's a trait that affected him more in old age, which got to his head after years of having everything go his way. This was much more the case then than when he was younger and more ruthlessly calculating, covering all his bases, planning everything but also adapting well to change.

His other weakness was his sense of interior design and architecture, which saw fit to have a miles-long shaft in his throne room, protected only by a low railing.