Was Yoda really all that wise?

Throughout the saga, he appears to make some fundamental errors, mainly when it comes to making decisions, but he appears to have a rather sketchy knowledge of the Dark Side (much as Palpatine states in Episode III).

-In Empire, he states that the Dark Side, once explored, will "forever consume [one's] destiny." ROTJ disproves this. Of course, you could claim that even Yoda does not know the full scope of the Force, but in the same episode, he predicts that if Luke faces Vader, "all will be lost." Actually it isn't, and in Episode VI, he decides to encourage Luke to face Vader. A further contradiction; in Jedi, Yoda chatises Luke for rushing to meet Vader, as "incomplete was your training." A few minutes later, he informs Luke "no more training do you require." Eh?

-In Episode III, why did Yoda and Obi-Wan split up against Anakin (technically Vader) and the Emperor? If they had teamed up against the Emperor, they would have probably defeated him and then Anakin would have had no master.

-This isn't really a character flaw, but throughout the prequels, Yoda comes off as a stuffy bureaucrat (though not as bad as Mace Windu). He seems more concerned with an arbitrary code than with the true nature of the Force. More serious is his insistance on Jedi being trained at a young age. If so, why did he wait so long to train Luke? In Empire, he even states, "he is too old. Yes, too old to begin the training." Obviously, he wasn't exactly correct on that point.

-Also, this is probably in dispute, but is the Dark Side truly weaker? Yoda says it is, and of course, by the end of Jedi, it ultimately loses, but only because Vader rejected it. The Sith have more physical power, but a Jedi has more insight into the future, as I understand it...if I'm correct on this point, than why did the Emperor keep Anakin around after he was injured? Surely Vader (in costume) lost a significant degree of power (I apologize for the digression, but I'm curious about this point too).

...anyone have any thoughts about this?

 

RotJ proves you can be redeemed, it still did dominate Anakin's destiny(from a certain point of view) as his stint on the Dark Side lead to his requiring the suit, which is why Palpatine's Force Lightning kills him.

True, but it almost was and had Leia not saved Luke it would have been. Luke's also more prepared in Jedi. Yoda was wrong, but he even admits that "always in motion is the future."

I took it as Luke wasn't fully trained but he had the bare minimum.

I don't think Obi-Wan would have lasted long enough against Palpatine for his presence to matter, as he'd have probably have lasted slightly longer than the posse but that's it, so it would still come down to Yoda v Sidious whereas if he goes after Vader he's at least got a shot at winning and killing one of the Sith.

In Empire I took it as Yoda testing Luke mostly as well as probably some hesitance to train another male Skywalker who was too old given how badly it ended up with Anakin.

I'd guess that Vader was still more powerful enough to do what Palpatine needed him for, but Palpatine knew that Vader wasn't strong enough to take him down alone, so it secured his position as Sith Lord for the foreseeable future. That said, Palpatine seemed eager to have Luke off Vader and take his place.

As far as is the Dark Side stronger, it's a matter of perspective. The Jedi are the only ones who can become Force Ghosts, and that immortality is in Yoda's opinion(from the Episode 3 script) a power greater than all. The Dark Side however is more powerful in combat and so while the Sith can do things the Jedi won't such as Force Lightning, it would pale in comparion to becoming a Ghost from the Jedi perspective.

 

>RotJ proves you can be redeemed, it still did dominate Anakin's destiny(from a >certain point of view) as his stint on the Dark Side lead to his requiring the >suit, which is why Palpatine's Force Lightning kills him.

It dominated, but did not "forever consume" his destiny.

>True, but it almost was and had Leia not saved Luke it would have been. Luke's >also more prepared in Jedi. Yoda was wrong, but he even admits that "always in ?>motion is the future."

If so, why was he so sure of his convictions? Certainly a Jedi master who admits incomplete knowledge of the future would be less adament.

>>I don't think Obi-Wan would have lasted long enough against Palpatine for his >presence to matter, as he'd have probably have lasted slightly longer than the >posse but that's it, so it would still come down to Yoda v Sidious whereas if he >goes after Vader he's at least got a shot at winning and killing one of the Sith.

If Obi-Wan had killed Vader, the Emperor would have simply taken a new apprentice. "Always two there are..." Considering that Obi-Wan defeats Anakin at the height of Anakin's powers, it appears that Obi-Wan was prepared to face the Emperor. He himself begs Yoda to be sent to kill Palpentine.

>In Empire I took it as Yoda testing Luke mostly as well as probably some >hesitance to train another male Skywalker who was too old given how badly it >ended up with Anakin.

If Luke and Leia were Yoda's last hopes (as he states) and he was unwilling to train a mature Luke, then it doesn't make sense to delay training at all.

>I'd guess that Vader was still more powerful enough to do what Palpatine needed ?>him for, but Palpatine knew that Vader wasn't strong enough to take him down >alone, so it secured his position as Sith Lord for the foreseeable future. That >said, Palpatine seemed eager to have Luke off Vader and take his place.

In the OT, Vader seems to be more of a general than a Lord...in ANH he even takes orders from Tarkin, hardly a sign that the Emperor had enough confidence in Vader to give him full control of even the regional governors.

 

It dominated, but did not "forever consume" his destiny.

True, but the line is "once you start down the Dark Path forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." It did consume him, but the forever is part of a seperate clause.

If so, why was he so sure of his convictions? Certainly a Jedi master who admits incomplete knowledge of the future would be less adament.

That's true, but it could be that Yoda felt the risks of a Jedi with little training running off to face Vader is significant enough that it's the most likely future. He also doesn't stop Luke from going, which I think he may have if he was positive that Luke would be doomed had he left.

If Obi-Wan had killed Vader, the Emperor would have simply taken a new apprentice. "Always two there are..." Considering that Obi-Wan defeats Anakin at the height of Anakin's powers, it appears that Obi-Wan was prepared to face the Emperor. He himself begs Yoda to be sent to kill Palpentine.

True, but Obi-Wan does because he doesn't want to fight his 'brother'. He does defeat Vader, but that's largely due to Vader's state of mind, which wouldn't happen were he fighting the Emperor who has far better control of his powers than his apprentice does.

If Luke and Leia were Yoda's last hopes (as he states) and he was unwilling to train a mature Luke, then it doesn't make sense to delay training at all.

It doesn't, and that's why I'm thinking it was mostly to test Luke.


In the OT, Vader seems to be more of a general than a Lord...in ANH he even takes orders from Tarkin, hardly a sign that the Emperor had enough confidence in Vader to give him full control of even the regional governors.

He however is on a Space Station that's under Tarkin's jurisitiction and unlike with the Death Star 2, Palpatine is pleased with how Tarkin is running things so there's no reason for Vader to make issue of anything unless in conflicts with the Emperor's will.

 

>True, but the line is "once you start down the Dark Path forever will it dominate >your destiny, consume you it will." It did consume him, but the forever is part >of a seperate clause.

I see your point, but again, at the end of Jedi, it seems as if the Light side is suddenly "dominating" Anakin's detiny. One can even argue that Luke in Jedi and Obi-Wan in Phantom give into the Dark side, if only momentarily, in fights.

><That's true, but it could be that Yoda felt the risks of a Jedi with little >training running off to face Vader is significant enough that it's the most >likely future.

He didn't sense Luke's conviction to remain loyal to Obi-Wan? In fact, the fact that Luke knows that Vader is his father is exactly what keeps him from killing Vader in Jedi! That's the kind of thing Yoda should be sensing.

>True, but Obi-Wan does because he doesn't want to fight his 'brother'.

He must have some confidence if he's willing to face the Emperor, regardless of his feelings for Anakin. Remember, Obi-Wan is of the mindset that attachments are to be avoided.

>He does defeat Vader, but that's largely due to Vader's state of mind, which >wouldn't happen were he fighting the Emperor who has far better control of his >powers than his apprentice does.

But Obi-Wan and Yoda...it just seems that the two most powerful Jedi (sans Anakin) should be able to defeat the Emperor, since Mace Windu does it single-handedly.

>It doesn't, and that's why I'm thinking it was mostly to test Luke.

Test him in what manner? If he failed, would Yoda simply not train him? What was to be gained?

>He however is on a Space Station that's under Tarkin's jurisitiction and unlike >with the Death Star 2, Palpatine is pleased with how Tarkin is running things so >there's no reason for Vader to make issue of anything unless in conflicts with >the Emperor's will.

Do Sith really take orders from anyone save their masters? Tarkin's order to "release him" seems rather upfront for a confrontation with a Stih. Even if the station is under Tarkin's jurisdiction, it seems safe to assume that Vader, being the Emperor's right hand man, still has executive power.

 

I see your point, but again, at the end of Jedi, it seems as if the Light side is suddenly "dominating" Anakin's detiny. One can even argue that Luke in Jedi and Obi-Wan in Phantom give into the Dark side, if only momentarily, in fights.

They did, though I'd think if using the path related metaphor it's more that they arrived at a cross roads than that they started down the Dark Path.

He didn't sense Luke's conviction to remain loyal to Obi-Wan? In fact, the fact that Luke knows that Vader is his father is exactly what keeps him from killing Vader in Jedi! That's the kind of thing Yoda should be sensing.

True, but just because a Jedi plans to remain loyal doesn't mean they won't fall when faced with the power of the Dark Side. It stops Luke from killing Vader out of anger, true, but I think that's also because Luke saw in Vader what he would become if he fully gave into his anger, which would've been the case anyway.

He must have some confidence if he's willing to face the Emperor, regardless of his feelings for Anakin. Remember, Obi-Wan is of the mindset that attachments are to be avoided.

Oh, I'm sure Obi-Wan did think he had a shot against Palpatine, I just don't think he did given Yoda's response.

But Obi-Wan and Yoda...it just seems that the two most powerful Jedi (sans Anakin) should be able to defeat the Emperor, since Mace Windu does it single-handedly.

There's debate on Mace's victory and Obi-Wan's powerful, but he's not on the same level as Mace, Yoda, or the Emperor in terms of outright power and given how easily Dooku tossed Obi-Wan aside I don't see why Palpatine couldn't do something similar since he's more powerful anyway.

Test him in what manner? If he failed, would Yoda simply not train him? What was to be gained?

I think it was more for Luke's benefit than Yoda's to make him realize his impatience, similar to Yoda's act of pretending to be an insane creature just prior to this.

Do Sith really take orders from anyone save their masters? Tarkin's order to "release him" seems rather upfront for a confrontation with a Stih. Even if the station is under Tarkin's jurisdiction, it seems safe to assume that Vader, being the Emperor's right hand man, still has executive power.

It is, but I took Vader's release as mostly due to Vader's respect for Tarkin as opposed to Vader being subserviant to Tarkin.

 

>They did, though I'd think if using the path related metaphor it's more that they >arrived at a cross roads than that they started down the Dark Path.

But just glancing down the path wouldn't let you tap into its power.

>True, but just because a Jedi plans to remain loyal doesn't mean they won't fall >when faced with the power of the Dark Side. It stops Luke from killing Vader out >of anger, true, but I think that's also because Luke saw in Vader what he would >become if he fully gave into his anger, which would've been the case anyway.

If the cave lesson was all Luke needed, then Yoda would probably have been more confident of Luke, knowing what had transpired.

>Oh, I'm sure Obi-Wan did think he had a shot against Palpatine, I just don't >think he did given Yoda's response.

Yoda proves himself to be a rather ill judge of power (he himself is wholly unprepared for the lightning attack in Sith, though he surely knows about Force Lightning).

>There's debate on Mace's victory and Obi-Wan's powerful, but he's not on the same >level as Mace, Yoda, or the Emperor in terms of outright power and given how >easily Dooku tossed Obi-Wan aside I don't see why Palpatine couldn't do something >smilar since he's more powerful anyway.

But Obi-Wan and Yoda together should be enough. The Emperor didn't seem to rely on surprises as much as Dooku did.

>I think it was more for Luke's benefit than Yoda's to make him realize his >impatience, similar to Yoda's act of pretending to be an insane creature just >prior to this.

Makes sense, though I just can't shake the feeling that Yoda was being truthful, particularly when one considers his actions in Phantom.

>It is, but I took Vader's release as mostly due to Vader's respect for Tarkin as >opposed to Vader being subserviant to Tarkin.

Nowhere else in the movies do we see Vader with any respect for anyone save a Jedi or Sith. It doesn't seem in character.

 

But just glancing down the path wouldn't let you tap into its power.

Possibly,

If the cave lesson was all Luke needed, then Yoda would probably have been more confident of Luke, knowing what had transpired.

Maybe, but Luke failed that test and I don't think truly learned it until Episode VI when he cut off Vader's hand.

Yoda proves himself to be a rather ill judge of power (he himself is wholly unprepared for the lightning attack in Sith, though he surely knows about Force Lightning).

True, but that was simply Sidious being faster than Yoda rather than him not expecting it to be used.

But Obi-Wan and Yoda together should be enough. The Emperor didn't seem to rely on surprises as much as Dooku did.

If I thought Ben would last much longer than the Posse I would but, I think he'd last slightly longer than Kit did, so he'd be almost a non-factor.

Makes sense, though I just can't shake the feeling that Yoda was being truthful, particularly when one considers his actions in Phantom.

He may be, I just think the other explination makes more sense and is something Yoda would certainly do.

Nowhere else in the movies do we see Vader with any respect for anyone save a Jedi or Sith. It doesn't seem in character.

True, but Tarkin's also the only non Jedi or Sith who is in Palpatine's good graces(since in Episode 3 he's serving on the Star Destroyer Vader and Palpatine are on to see the Death Star being built) that we see Vader serve with so it could be Vader's obedience to his Master via Tarkin I suppose.

 

In Empire..I think what Yoda doesn't realize the full scope of is the bond b/w a parent and child.
No matter his past and what has led up to that moment Vader could not let someone kill his son.

In III..I think Yoda just underestimated Sids which would be easy to do considering it's been
so long since the Jedi engaged the Sith. That's MO anyway.

Yoda waited to train Luke b/c he realized Luke needed to grow up as a normal unaffected child.
Plus, what's Yoda gonna do..raise him from a baby in the swamps of Dagobah?
When he was saying "he's too old.." etc..he was doing that so Luke would hear him and understand
how important this decision to train him is and not to take it lightly.
He was going to train Luke no matter what.

I think it's weaker. I think it's the easy path to an illusion of greater power. It's "quicker, more
seductive".
GL does say Anakin, pre-suit, would have been twice as powerful as Sids, but Vader, after the injuries and
suit, is now 20% less powerful than Sids. So yeah, GL says the injuries diminishes his power.

 

RE: Was Yoda really all that wise?
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1580 on his SATs. That's the old style SAT.

 

Firstly - the dark side does dominate your destiny. Did it not lead to every Sith's, we see, death? It changed Anakins destiny forever and effected his whole existance.

Yoda tells Luke that he shouldn't rush off in TESB because he hasnt any control and is not ready. In ROTJ he tells him he is not a Jedi yet -he will become one when he faces Vader and gets over that fear. But Luke is then ready for that challenge.

And they may also have both lost. Kenobi probably would have been pawned. Then you have both Sith at large. Yoda had a good chance vs Sidious. Kenobi had a good chance vs Vader. It was the best option available to Yoda.

Yoda left it to the froce to decide when the children should be trained. "Until the time is right, disappear we will". When Luke arrived on Dagobah it had been longer than Yoda had expected it to be. Luke was reckless and a danger to train. But Yoda put faith in Luke (and Kenobi) and trained Luke. Yoda also knew that Leia was still an option and that if Luke failed or wasnt suitable, then they could train her.

If you actually listen to what Yoda says throughout the saga, he is constantly talkuing about using your feelings and trusting the Force. He is more in touch with it than anyone.

Yoda does not say it is weaker. He says that it is not stronger than the light side. It is true that the dark side offers greater physical power. And should you be interested in this kind of power then the dark side is the way into that. Lucas himself said the dark side was the stronger side in this respect. But Yoda is talking about the bigger picture. The light side offers a power greater than all and unlike the dark side, will not lead to your undoing. It all comes down to your point of view.

The Emperor kept Vader around because there wasnt anyone stronger - but he still kept looking for a replacement. It just happened that he set his sights upon Luke once he learned of his existance...

 

>Firstly - the dark side does dominate your destiny. Did it not lead to every >Sith's, we see, death? It changed Anakins destiny forever and effected his whole >existance.

You could argue that the Dark Side dominated Obi-Wan's destiny; it led to his demise!

>Yoda tells Luke that he shouldn't rush off in TESB because he hasnt any control >and is not ready. In ROTJ he tells him he is not a Jedi yet -he will become one >when he faces Vader and gets over that fear. But Luke is then ready for that >challenge.

But what has changed? There is no indication of further training, only the fact that Luke disobeyed orders and fought Vader.

>Yoda left it to the froce to decide when the children should be trained.

So he suddenly decided to abandon the Jedi code he'd abided by for (presumably) 800 years?

>If you actually listen to what Yoda says throughout the saga, he is constantly >talkuing about using your feelings and trusting the Force. He is more in touch >with it than anyone.

Than why was it Qui-Gon who insisted on training Anakin? Yoda agreed, only reluctantly.

 

it ultimately loses, but only because Vader rejected it

Actually, it loses because Luke rejects it. If Luke embraced it, and killed his father or continued the fight, it would have won.

 

He becomes wiser later on as he opens himself up to Qui-Gon's taechings of the Living Force. Love. Light. And Compassion. These are the answer to the darkness of the PT and Yoda understands this ultimately.

But in the PT, like all the Jedi, he is VERY flawed and displays the arrogance and a lack of compassion that have allowed the Jedi to become out of touch with the force and has allowed the force to become unbalanced.

 

I never really got the impression that Yoda was necessarily arrogant, and beyond all the flaws in his logic pointed out in this thread, I truly do think he was very wise. However I believe moreso that he was pragmatic, and too pragmatic at that. From what I gather his connection with the force was very much like that of a Taoist, passive and detached to the immediate events of the universe. I think Sidious recognised this, and exploited it through his clever orchestration of the war.
Cheers

 

Yoda was wise, like other Jedi Knights and Masters. However, he was also flawed, which means that he made mistakes.

 

>However, he was also flawed, which means that he made mistakes.

But it seems that he's reluctant to admit those mistakes. In ESB, it's Obi-Wan who says that "not even Yoda can know for sure" (or something along those lines).



>Love. Light. And Compassion. These are the answer to the darkness of the PT and Yoda >understands this ultimately.

...which is why Yoda should have told Luke the truth about Vader. In Jedi, had Luke not known that Vader was his father, he would have struck Vader down.

 

Yes, but he did know the truth by Jedi, so I don't understand your point? In ESB neither Obi-Wan nor' Yoda thought that Vader/Anakin could redeamed, so in Empire they was training to kill BOTH The Emperor and Anakin/Vader.

Yoda's flaws are mainly in the PT. In the OT I don't think he is flawed at all.

 

Yes, I think by the time of the OT Yoda has grown wise of is mistakes and is now no longer flawed.

 

He is far more comapssionate and understanding of Luke's problems, compared to how he treated Anakin.

 

>Yes, but he did know the truth by Jedi, so I don't understand your point? In ESB neither Obi->Wan nor' Yoda thought that Vader/Anakin could redeamed, so in Empire they was training to >kill BOTH The Emperor and Anakin/Vader.

Given that Anakin's redemption is the entire point of the saga/prophecy, I'd say that's a major point. If Luke hadn't disobeyed Yoda/Obi-Wan in ESB, he would never have learned the truth and there would have been no redemption.


>He is far more comapssionate and understanding of Luke's problems, compared to how he >treated Anakin.

He was cold and uncaring in regards to Anakin; he simply shoots down Luke's protests with claims that "[you] will destroy everything they have fought for." In both cases, he isn't exactly in tune with the will of the Force...

 

Perhaps Yoda had grown wiser. But I find it hard to accept that he was no longer flawed by the OT. No one is flawless. No one.

 

In the OT everyone is trying to deal with this horrible situation thats transpired. People always think Yoda and Obi-Wan are wrong for lying to Luke, but what else were they supposed to do? They didn't think Anakin/Vader could be redeamed and they needed Luke to help them get out of the mess they had gotten themseleves into. Maybe they could have told Luke and given him the chance to go back to the farm, but there were bigger things at stake than even Luke's happiness, namely the fate of the galaxy and destroying the tyranny that had taken over the galaxy.

Remember, in many ways Yoda was actually right with the advice he gives Luke not to go to Bespin. Luke wasn't ready to face Vader at that point and he got hammered and ended up having to be rescued by the people he was going to save. He didn't make any differance to Han and Leia's fate and would have been far better staying with Yoda until he was ready to face Vader. Though the one good point that came out of his confrontation with Vader was that he chose between the dark side and the light side and decided death would be better than giving himself to the dark side - Which I assume helped make him a much stronger Jedi/Padawan?

As for Vader's redemption, it didn't begin when he told Luke that he was Luke's father, it actually began when he found out (between movies) that his and Padme's child had lived. Thats when his redemption truely began being set in motion - So the; I am your father moment, wasn't actually that important in itself and Vader would have told Luke when they would eventually have met, anyway.

 

>People always think Yoda and Obi-Wan are wrong for lying to Luke, but what else were they supposed to do?


Really, I don't care if Yoda's lying or not, only if he's correct.


>Though the one good point that came out of his confrontation with Vader was that he chose between the dark side and the light side and decided death would be better than giving himself to the dark side - Which I assume helped make him a much stronger Jedi/Padawan?


...which is a key point! Without that knowledge, Luke would have been destroyed in Jedi!


>As for Vader's redemption, it didn't begin when he told Luke that he was Luke's father, it actually began when he found out (between movies) that his and Padme's child had lived. Thats when his redemption truely began being set in motion - So the; I am your father moment, wasn't actually that important in itself and Vader would have told Luke when they would eventually have met, anyway.


Ultimately, though, he needs Luke's help, and Luke felt little (or no) compassion for Vader until the cave, and then only truly emphasized with him after "I am your father." Vader only tells Luke because he sees how powerful Luke has become. Notice he tries to freeze Luke, and when Luke escapes, Vader suddenly respects him a lot more.

 

I can see where your coming form here, but ultimately what all this comes down to is that in ESB Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't thinking along the lines of redeeming Vader. They want to train Luke to become as powerful as he can be, so that he can kill Vader and The Emperor. I suppose they have essentially lost faith, which I guess IS a flaw, but after seeing the depths to which Anakin sank, who can blame them. So, maybe your right afterall, maybe by losing faith that The Chosen One will choose the right path in the OT, perhaps Yoda is still flawed.

It would be interesting to speculate as to what Qui-Gon thought in the OT. Did he still believe in The Chosen One, I wonder?