ST We Must Stop with the Mary Sue Putdowns

The movies aren't about "improving" for the main character. The main character is a messiah archetype.

Their journey is not so much about gaining power, we already know from the get go they are incredibly powerful because of birth right.

Their journey is the burden such power puts on them and the expectation to fulfil a certain destiny (which is often terribly, horribly depressing).

This is not just Star Wars either, the Matrix and Harry Potter also have the main messianic archetypical lead character who has the same struggle.

Star Wars was never a movie about Luke Skywalker being an average joe who then struggles to be a decent, middle of the road Jedi. Sure everyone can tap into that mystical energy field, but it's pretty much driven home that Luke is gifted abilities and insights into the Force just by being born.

And that's FINE. That is a common mythological archetype. That is not poor storytelling it's just a different damn archetype. It works in a different way.

The reason the movies feel GROUNDED, is because they're often smart enough (well the prequels weren't) to surround the main "messiah" character with more down to earth, normal "heroes". See: Han Solo, Chewbacca, Ron Weasley, Heromine Granger, Morpheus, Trinity, etc. etc. Finn, Chewie, and Poe will basically be that to Rey.

 

If Anakin was already highly skilled in staff combat; and was fighting an apprentice who had just been shot by the most powerful gun in the galaxy and stabbed by a lightsaber; and had likely been trained in the force when he was very young; and was 19 years old. Then no. It wouldn't have bothered me.

 

I agree with this too, it makes perfect sense for Snoke to not fully train Kylo Ren and for the love of all things keep him away from lightsaber combat.

There's no other Jedi around for him to have to fight with Luke in exile, so why risk having your prized crown jewel getting his arms and legs chopped off like Palpatine's dud of an apprentice did.

My guess is Kylo Ren really has not fought very many (if even a single) life or death lightsaber battle against any Force sensitive person.

 

Yes all of that was done by a freaking Nine year old who was an avatar of THE FORCE. Anakin is THE FORCE.

 

Seeing people defend Anakin in TPM while criticizing Rey in TFA just further proves the point of this thread. Either they are both Mary Sue's, or neither of them are. You can't have it both ways.

 

Anakin in TPM being a Gary Stu has been mentioned and beaten to death. Do people think he's not?

That sure would've bothered me if the writers did that.

 

Anakin sucked at piloting the Naboo ship.

but the central issue is that Anakin's character had somewhere to go after TPM.

Rey is the equal of ROTJ Luke at the end of her first movie.
Also her lack of flaws make her more of a flat character, Luke had 2 movies of being flawed before he became that.

 

Luke wasn't a messiah. He was a Hero going on the heroes journey. He's not even considered unique WITHIN THE STORY. That archetype IS about a nobody becoming more powerful and learning to become an adult.

The Messiah Archetype is different, an archetype Rey/Luke doesn't seem to be a part of. The PT, Harry Potter, and Matrix deals with it, but even so Anakin/HP/Neo had to mature.

If Rey was accompanied by a prophecy and holy doves, I'm sure people would have a problem with it, but because that sounds an awful a lot more like the PT than the OT.

 

I'd put TPM Anakin and Rey both as being cynical marketing gimmicks.

Lucas thinking with TPM "we need this demographic, how do we get little boys interested in Star Wars?".

Disney thinking with TFA "we need this demographic, how do we get girls interested in Star Wars?".

Other examples are Ahsoka in Clone Wars and Ezra in Rebels.

 

Anakin was a terrible character.

I'm just reminding you that you are using a bad character to defend another character.

 

Couldn't disagree more, but funny as hell, so you get a "like"

 

Equal to ROTJ Luke!? You mean the guy that does back flips, and beats the crap out of Darth Vader... then why didn't she completely destroy Kylo Ren? He's lucky to even be breathing! You're saying she's as powerful as Luke? You do realize that Vader could kill Kylo with one hand tied behind his back, right? Rey gets the upper hand, but only from a very surprised Kylo Ren who doesn't seem to have proper light saber training...

LOL Kylo Ren is flawed, he has a lot to go before becoming a sith lord...

It's like Luke in ANH but this time on the Sith side...

Not a problem with the movie, but people being closed minded and who can't comprehend something different as being different without seeing it as a flaw or mistake in the film.

 

Kylo Ren was not trained? Where did you hear that from? Snoke said in the film it was time to complete Kylo's training. Must mean he started and is nearly done (which is a lot more than Rey did). Also, didnt Luke train Kylo too?

 

It is clear that the female Jedi came from George's treatments, so that wasn't Disney's thinking. And this is silly anyway. You can do this with any of the casting. About the only casting choices you can't make a ridiculous marketing argument with are aliens.

 

971 bottles of pages on the thread, 971 bottles of pages.
Take one down and pass it around, 970 bottles of pages on the thread.

 

So what's the score, anyone changed their minds on either side yet? No? Why are we here again?

 

Wasn't the whole movie about Neo failing to learn that stuff?

He even still has bullets in his chest from when he "died" before love woke him up.

 

Rey isn't Luke. Luke's story was a stereotypical coming of age story. It had been done a million times before, and will be done a million times after. Rey's story is a very different one. .Her i story about freeing oneself from the shackles past and embracing the future and her destiny. When we meet her she is literally held hostage by her past, she had chances to leave Jakku but she never did because she couldn't move on. She couldn't accept the fact that no one was coming back for her which resulted in her living in denial for years. Also when we meet her she is lonely and is independent to a fault. However by the end of the movie she has made friends and formed bonds with people she now cares about. She had a clear arc in this movie and although it may not be everyone's favorite type of story, I for one loved it.

 

I'd prefer Kylo Ren as the protagonist of this trilogy, his flaws make for something interesting.

Rey is such a flawless character she requires someone like Finn to bounce off, he carried pretty much every scene they were in.

 

She did? I thought she was gullible as h***. . .in a naive affable way.

And her independence will only become a flaw when she rejects help she needs.

 

I don't think Luke completed Kylo's training, seeing how he's running around slaughtering people, there's a given that there's more to be inspired. The extent of the training he got from Luke is a mystery. Also, if a guy who cleans toilets can hold his own against him I'd say that his saber training is a little weak... just call it logical deduction, if not fact...

It's obvious, if not factual that Kylo was not properly trained or prepared to fight a jedi with a saber. If anything I think snoke will train him to be better in the arts with a saber, and complete his training. Some times the last step is a BIG step. Luke had to face Vader to finish his training with Yoda... even close to be complete in his training, that's a pretty big step to take.

There's no REAL , actual indication of how much training Kylo has received or what the final steps of his training will entail...Especially regarding the saber. That is from Luke or Snoke... he's obviously not a sith lord yet as he is struggling a lot with the light side of the force to the point where he talks to himself in his room about it...

Sure, he has abilities that Rey does in fact NOT have. His saber ability seems to speak for itself, and I'd think that would be a reflection of his training at least in some part. Snoke seemed surprised that another jedi even exists... they are after all hunting Luke because they think he's the last remaining jedi alive and want him destroyed so....

I don't think Kylo was necessarily trained to face jedi with a saber or has had the proper training with one...Or to even face another force sensitive who has a saber. Also Rey in addition to being strong in the force has spent several years training with weapons on Jakku.

 

Well I think we got away from the assumption that the term "Mary Sue" was sexist; and that no other characters were ever described as such.

Now it's just an argument about whether her character is one, and if she is, why arn't the other heroes...some of which are. I think it's more semantics now.

It's great to have more Star Wars to talk about.

 

Rey needs finn so she has someone to save again and again in subsequent films. The guys only value is to be comic relief and to lose so badly that he needs saving.

 

Thank you so much. This is right on thinking. But for me, those who balked at Furiosa and Rey so vehemently aren't analyzing character growth. See through you, we can. You need to go home and rethink your life.

 

I have all the indication I need that Kylo is trained enough to at least beat a stormtrooper.