Were so many Jedi needed to save Obi-Wan at Geonosis?

I was just watching AOTC again and I actually really enjoyed it more than I ever have.

I was just thinking though, why did Mace bring so many Jedi to Geonosis? Just to save Obi-Wan? It seems so many lost their lives to save Obi-Wan. Or was it to confront the droid army as well?

It just seemed like because so many Jedi went to Geonosis it gave the droid army something to fight which in turn endangered so many Jedi and forced the use of clones for combat.

Dooku would've attacked at some point anyway but how many Jedi lives were lost or endangered (including Anakin and Padme) because Obi-Wan was captured on Geonosis?

Doesn't Yoda say in ESB that Luke should sacrifice his friends if he honours what they fight for? Yoda didn't follow this advice (even letting Dooku escape to save Obi-Wan and Anakin). Do you think it was a deliberate parallel by Lucas?

Should they have "sacrificed" Obi-Wan or at least brought less Jedi to Geonosis? Or did they do the right thing?

 

That's what i was thinking!!!!
Why did they take All the jedi left to rescue him?? Stupid idea if you ask me....

 

The Jedi Council probably didnt know what to expect. For all they know, a whole army could be holding Obi hostage. Better to come prepared with 200 Jedi, than with 10.

 

But bringing 200 Jedi is still to save one Jedi, isn't it? Whether it's 10 or 200, the question is how many Jedi should they jeopardise to save one? More would be safer, but shouldn't there be a certain number where they decide that that is the number of Jedi they are willing to sacrifice to save one?

I agree that the Jedi didn't know what to expect- so why risk the lives of so many?

 

It doesn't make sense to me either. If they were going there JUST for the sake of rescuing Obi-Wan, there were just too many of them. A small party of 2 or 3 Jedi would have been enough to save him.

However, if they were going to confront the droid army then they came totally unprepared. 200 Jedi against thousands of droids? It makes very little sense, especially for Jedi who are supposed to be all wise. Another thing, if they were going to confront the droids, why not wait a couple extra minutes until the clones arrive to attack instead of wasting the lives of all those Jedi?

 

Rescuing Obi Wan was part of the operation, sure, but who said that many Jedi were brought for that reason? Remember, not only were the Separatists leaders responsible for civil upheaval there, but as was the bounty hunter behind the attempts on Ambidala's life. And don't forget that Obi Wan made a report before he was captured that included what he'd seen and heard regarding the plans and resources of the CIS leaders.

The Jedi weren't brought to just save Obi Wan. They were brought because a combatative conflict was expected and didn't have the military resources (at the time) to do anything more than bring Jedi. Obi Wan, at best, was second priority, something which Padme seems to recognize when she drags Anakin with her.


However, if they were going to confront the droid army then they came totally unprepared. 200 Jedi against thousands of droids? It makes very little sense, especially for Jedi who are supposed to be all wise. Another thing, if they were going to confront the droids, why not wait a couple extra minutes until the clones arrive to attack instead of wasting the lives of all those Jedi?

1 - 200 Jedi is alot of power backing a movement. We've seen on many occasions that battle droids aren't much of a problem for Jedi.

2 - They weren't expecting such vast armies, or ones that were more advanced than episode I. (Mentioned in the commentary on TPM, I believe?)

3 - Jedi are not all wise.

4 - They had no idea the state of the Clone army or whether Yoda could bring it. They went in there with the belief that they may be the only obstacle between Dooku and an outbreak of war.

5 - The Separatists caught Obi Wan as he was making a report. It doesn't take much common sense to figure Dooku may have been alerted that the Jedi knew of his presence. They had to move fast.

 

"Obi Wan, at best, was second priority, something which Padme seems to recognize when she drags Anakin with her."

Didn't Padme want to go to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan? She made a whole speech to Anakin about it before taking off in the starship. It's her first priority.


Obi-Wan was bait and Padme fell for it. As did the Jedi. Their "weakness" was to help one of their own and consequently help start the war/s. They had to have believed that they could save Obi-Wan with little Jedi casualties. They knew the droid army was there, so didn't realise they would be overwhelmed and ultimately trapped by them until the arrival of Yoda and the Clones. Guess it shows that they did get too cocky and arrogant. Which is strange since in the beginning Mace did know that they weren't soldiers. Guess he thought they could handle that small "skirmish", just not a war involving the whole Republic (though that is what it became).

We have the benefit of hindsight and overview, and I agree, the people involved- the Jedi and Republic esp.- are doing what they can at that moment with what they have and what they can figure out.

 

This happens in most movies or books. You see a team of 10 people trying to save one and half of them die in the process. So basically you sacrificed many lives for one. Good call!

Getting back to AOTC, I think that is why Yoda said that to Luke in ESB. He recalled that maybe it was a mistake to go to Geonosis and that Obi should have been sacrifice in order to save many.

 

Didn't Padme want to go to Geonosis to help Obi-Wan? She made a whole speech to Anakin about it before taking off in the starship. It's her first priority.

Yep. And why did she want to go? "Because they'll never make it in time." I always took this as Padme seeming to realize that the Jedi wouldn't rush straight to Geonosis just to save Obi Wan, that they would take to time to gather forces before doing so.


Obi-Wan was bait and Padme fell for it. As did the Jedi. Their "weakness" was to help one of their own and consequently help start the war/s.

More or less. Sucks to be a Jedi in Palpatine's time.


They had to have believed that they could save Obi-Wan with little Jedi casualties. They knew the droid army was there, so didn't realise they would be overwhelmed and ultimately trapped by them until the arrival of Yoda and the Clones.

Or they received Obi Wan's report, saw him get captured, and said to themselves, "There's something really serious going on here that threatens the Republic and state of peace at hand. We better stop it before everything spirals out of control." Mace Windu even laments the lack of Jedi at the temple, as so many are on missions. They knew Dooku was on Geonosis - what better time to try and prevent a war by capturing him early on? And you never go into a situation without as many resources as possible; unfortunately, all they had on them at the time was 200 Jedi. It was a preemptive strike that failed miserably.



Guess it shows that they did get too cocky and arrogant. Which is strange since in the beginning Mace did know that they weren't soldiers. Guess he thought they could handle that small "skirmish", just not a war involving the whole Republic (though that is what it became).

More or less. It isn't entirely their fault, though - they simply didn't have enough information, and the situation was too pertinent to ignore anything but immediate response. Though Mace Windu's statement was more along the lines of, "We aren't trained for nor are there enough of us to fight a war for you," IMO.


We have the benefit of hindsight and overview, and I agree, the people involved- the Jedi and Republic esp.- are doing what they can at that moment with what they have and what they can figure out.

Agreed. Palpatine is always just one step ahead.

 

"Yep. And why did she want to go? "Because they'll never make it in time." I always took this as Padme seeming to realize that the Jedi wouldn't rush straight to Geonosis just to save Obi Wan, that they would take to time to gather forces before doing so."

I disagree. She didn't think the Jedi could get there before she and Anakin did because of distance. Obi-Wan was the first priority for her. She didn't think of what else the Jedi were doing, all she thought was that she and Anakin were closer.

 

I was under the impression that there was more to the move to go to Geonosis than just saving Kenobi. Wasnt there more to the entire process? i mean, i have watched the movie in a while, but initially, the move was to see further what was going on there.....and at the time, there wasnt an army or even force to take, save for the jedi. i believe that they were trying to avert the whole "war" effort before it got started. in any event, yoda went to check on the whole clone issue alone. suffice it to say, APPARENTLY, the felt the threat on geonosis to be formidable enough for yoda to mobilize the entire clone army to geonosis, right?

 

Yeah, Yoda, right after Obi-Wan's message knows that there is "more happening on Geonosis than has been revealed."

Obi-Wan's message does do its job (or Palpatine's): the Jedi and Republic know there is a droid army now, which makes the Senate panic for the clone army, and Obi-Wan needs their help with whatever is going on at Geonosis immediately.

 

The 200 Jedi arent there just to save Obi Wan, they they're to stop the droid army from being activated (Ki and Plo's mission) to capture the Seperatist leadership, to prepare for the arrival of the clone army and to resuce Obi Wan kenobi...Unfortunatley:
[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/Qu_klaani/59d473fc.jpg]
The jedi hadnt at all expected thousands of droids to be waiting right outside the arena (look how quickly they appear) and they had no experience of fighting in a large group and were massivley outnumbered, as such they got owned.

If you have Hyperspace the original cut of the whole thing is on there and things make a lot more sense, its less like a battle and more like a full on jedi slaughter, also a lot of this was more obvious in the original script:

"BAIL ORGANA: We must stop them before they're ready.

JAR JAR: Exsueeze me, yousa honorable Supreme Chancellor, Sir. Maybe dissen Jedi stoppen the rebel army.

PALPATINE: Master Yoda, how many Jedi are available to go to Geonosis?

YODA: Throughout the galaxy, thousands of Jedi there are. To send on a special mission, only two hundred are
available."


"MACE WINDU: Sorry to disappoint you, Dooku. This party's over.

MACE WINDU signals, and at strategic places around the
arena there are sudden flashes of light as about ONE
HUNDRED JEDI switch on their lightsabers. The crowd is
suddenly silent. COUNT DOOKU's lips curl in slight
amusement.

COUNT DOOKU: (to Mace Windu) Brave, but foolish, my old
Jedi friend. You're impossibly outnumbered.

MACE WINDU: I don't think so. The Geonosians aren't
warriors. One Jedi has to be worth a hundred Geonosians.

COUNT DOOKU looks around the great theater. His smile
grows.

COUNT DOOKU: It wasn't the Geonosians I was thinking about. How well do you think one Jedi will hold up against a thousand Battle Droids?

COUNT DOOKU signals. THOUSANDS OF DROIDS start to pour into all parts of the arena."

 

I disagree. She didn't think the Jedi could get there before she and Anakin did because of distance. Obi-Wan was the first priority for her. She didn't think of what else the Jedi were doing, all she thought was that she and Anakin were closer.

Yes, which likely meant she realized the Jedi would take time to prepare to head to Coruscant in addition to the distance variation. She's a politician - she should know how the system works. But we can agree to disagree. Point being, Obi Wan was her first priority, but he wasn't to the Jedi Council.

 

Qu_Klaani- that does make it clearer.

Chaotic_serenity- I just think Padme was still young, naive and well-intentioned; with emotional binds to her friends. All she knew was from Obi-Wan's message that a droid army was being built and that Obi-Wan was captured. That's why she went- not to do what she felt the Jedi didn't see as important. As GL said in the AOTC- she and Anakin are the young, impulsive ones. I still think that Obi-Wan was a first priority to Mace and the Jedi as well, though. (Mace talks about helping Obi-Wan in the Senate scene with Yoda.)

 

he wasn't to the Jedi Council.

Neither was he second to Dooku.

What's the first thing the Jedi do upon arriving at the temple? Circle around Obi Wan, make sure he (and conveniently Anakin too) is free and armed - then spread out and face what was coming to them.

Mace didn't tell Dooku to surrender, he told him that "this party", the execution, was over. He didn't even put the saber to Dooku's throat, if that ever would've been possible.

- O_F

 

"He didn't even put the saber to Dooku's throat, if that ever would've been possible."

In some Clone Wars novel ("Dark Rendezvous", I think) Mace says something interesting- that he wished he killed Dooku on Geonosis when he had the chance. Which made me wonder, "Why didn't he?"

 

Perhaps Mace didn't kill Dooku on Geonosis because that would have been "using the Force for attack." Would killing a defenseless former Jedi be considered a dark act?

And Dooku could have argued that the execution of Anakin, Ben, and Amidala were justified, provided spying garners the death penalty on Geonosis.

 

I didn't say Obi Wan wasn't of *any* priority. Certainly protecting one's own holds high on the list. But they certainly took the time to gather reinforcements before they headed off to Geonosis, which says to me that they did recognize that the significance of the events occurring. And it seems fair. I don't think there was one Jedi on that battlefield that wouldn't have given their life if it had meant stopping the Clone Wars.


Chaotic_serenity- I just think Padme was still young, naive and well-intentioned; with emotional binds to her friends. All she knew was from Obi-Wan's message that a droid army was being built and that Obi-Wan was captured. That's why she went- not to do what she felt the Jedi didn't see as important. As GL said in the AOTC- she and Anakin are the young, impulsive ones. I still think that Obi-Wan was a first priority to Mace and the Jedi as well, though. (Mace talks about helping Obi-Wan in the Senate scene with Yoda.)

No, no, I agree. What she did was impulsive. I'm just saying that was likely part of her thought process.

 

Let's agree to disagree- but I just don't think Padme had all those thought processes- oh, Obi-Wan isn't as high a priority, the Jedi are going to take time gathering their reinforcements etc. etc. (she doesn't even know their plan)... These are assumptions to me and don't really fit in with "impulsive". It's more, "Oh, they have to travel halfway across the galaxy to save Obi-Wan, we're less than a parsec away- we can save him. Let's go."

Anyway, that's not really the main issue here. The main thing different to my initial thoughts in this thread is that I agree that the Jedi going to Geonosis is not just about saving Obi-Wan but about confronting the threat that is Count Dooku, realising that the Separatists are preparing for war and dealing with it. Though whether they went about it in a haphazard fashion is another issue, I guess- they did go there early and Jedi lives were unnecessarily lost in the process. I mean, the Jedi arena invasion was only to save some Jedi and more Jedi lives were lost because of it.

Perhaps Jedi leading the clone armies from the beginning of the battle (i.e. waiting for the clone armies to arrive first) could've been another option?

 

Perhaps Jedi leading the clone armies from the beginning of the battle (i.e. waiting for the clone armies to arrive first) could've been another option?

Anakin, Kenobi and Padme would've all died had they waited.

- O_F

 

The Jedi had to get as much reinforcements as they can and stop the Separatists in their tracks, and in particular ?deal with Dooku?. First stop Jedi temple and gather them together, while Yoda gets the Clones.

But I also agree that Padme went because they were in fact closer and could save Obi Wan earlier but she also had another agenda ? finding a ?diplomatic solution to this mess? (btw the Republic?s situation is a MESS)

But The Jedi go to Geonosis before the Separatists do get ready to attack, and they probably notice the huge commotion in the arena, so they check that out first. They surely have sensed Dooku was around there especially by Mace in particular.

Finally also lets not forget Anakin's importance "if the Prophecy is true, your apprentice..."

 

Danny Torrance-you're thinking of Shatterpoint. Great read.

 

Danny_Torrance, It's from Shatterpoint and Mace didn;t kill Dooku then as it would have meant the deaths of Obi-Wan, Padme and Anakin and god knows who else.

BTW, here's something from the audio commentary.

The Jedi don;t leave immediatly for Geonosis as they don't really know what they are up against and they don't know how much danger Obi-Wan is in.

Anakin and Padme know Obi is in danger RIGHT NOW and they needed to go and help him.

Besides, they were no more than 5 minutes from Geonosis while the Jedi were about 8 hours or more

 

"Anakin, my long range transmitter has ben knocked out. Re-transmit this message to Coruscant. I have tracked the bounty hunter Jango Fett to the droid foundries of Geonosis. THE TRADE FEDERATION IS TO TAKE DELIVERY OF A DROID ARMY HERE and it is clear that Viceroy Gunray is behind the assassination attempts on Senator Amidala. THE COMMERCY GUILDS AND CORPORATE ALLIANCE HAVE BOTH PLEDGED THEIR ARMIES TO COUNT DOOKU AND ARE FORMING A...Wait! Wait. Ah!"