PT Were the Jedi flawed? (i.e., arrogant)

Yoda says that arrogance is "A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones." This sounds like he is aware of a flaw in the Jedi, but that he hasn't come to grips with it in himself. Palpatine later says to him, "Your arrogance blinds you." This mirrors Luke saying to Palpatine, "Your overconfidence is your weakness." The tables have turned between the light and dark sides, but in both instances, the one in power is called out for their hubris. Lucas talks a little bit about the Jedi's arrogance and that they think they know everything in the "archival interviews" commentary track of AotC.

I think there are some interesting subtle clues in TPM, the film that really sets the ground for the whole saga and establishes the characters and factions, that point to the Jedi suffering from hubris. This is classic Lucas, telling something with just the visuals.

The Jedi temple spire resembles Palpatine's spire on the second Death Star.




The Jedi quite literally reside in an ivory tower. This is very stark imagery. The Emperor later resides in a darker hued version.

The demeanor of Mace resembles that of Han Solo, when he was still an arrogant rogue.




Han shoots Greedo, while Mace shoots down the prospect of Anakin being trained.




These seem like small, but deliberate choices that hold a lot of subtext. What do you think?

 

In the Special Edition of TPM, Anakin prevents Mace from being trained first.

 

While some Jedi do display arrogance (which is against their ways), that's more of a comment directed at Obi-Wan. The point is that Obi-Wan was complaining about a flaw in Anakin that he also suffers from and hasn't fully overcome.

The Jedi don't reside in an ivory tower. The reside in/operate from a temple, which has spires. That's an indication of the spirituality of their Order, not a criticism against them.

The Emperor's DS tower in ROTJ is a perversion of the Jedi Temple spire. That's the contrast that Lucas was making.

 

How did Anakin accomplish this?

Mace was not the only member of the Jedi Council to reject the idea of Anakin joining the Order. The entire Council did. Mace was the one who had expressed the Council's decision. And by the end of the movie, the Council had reversed its decision, with the exception of Yoda, who continued to oppose Anakin's recruitment into the Order.

 

Yes, that comment was mostly directed at Obi-Wan. But then Lucas talks about the arrogance that the Jedi have in thinking they know everything, referring to the scene with Jocasta Nu. She also displayed arrogance. And I think it is important that Palpatine calls Yoda arrogant, which is an inversion of Luke calling Palpatine overconfident. I think the point Lucas was making is that those in power often suffer from hubris. Yoda is quite sure of himself until he is humbled by defeat at the hands of Palpatine, at which point he admits he has failed and needs to go into exile.

I think that we as an audience are meant to take the side of the main heroes in TPM, who are being denied by both the senate, because of its corruption, and the Jedi Council, because of their hubris. Both institutions are rendered somewhat inactive by their flaws. Mace's attitude, which I think is very deliberately mirroring that of an arrogant Han Solo, and Anakin's resulting glance at him are subtle but telltale clues to the Jedi's attitude and our heroes' feelings about them.

 

The Jedi are definitely arrogant in the PT. They firmly believe that they are able to handle any situation that could arise, and detect any threat to the Republic long before it would be unmanageable and stop it in its tracks. They believe they know all, see all and can best all.
Unfortunately for them, and the Republic, they didn't see (or didn't want to see) the corruption in government that was right in front of them, nor did they notice how disconnected they were from the populace and how they lived and thought. Palpatine took advantage of that arrogance and set them up to be wiped off the map without them realizing it until it was too late.
But, as noted, the wheel turns and he gave in to his own pride & arrogance, and didn't realize that a pitiful bunch of malcontents calling themselves the Alliance was going to take him down but good.

 

The dark side is like a cancer. It strikes and festers where there is already a weakness. This is how Palpatine was able to control the senate, because of the already existing corruption. I believe the same was true for the Jedi, that they were already suffering from hubris, and the dark side was able to take advantage of it. After all, the whole Republic was in decay, so why should the Jedi be immune to it? When Yoda says that "Hard to see the dark side is," it is true in some sense, but they really couldn't conceive that the Sith could have returned on their watch. Their own arrogance blinded them as much as the dark side.

 

The city of Coruscant was clearly inspired by Metropolis (1927):

Which was basically about wealthy industrialists and business magnates living on the surface and reigning over the dystopian city from their tall skyscrapers, whereas common people and workers suffered in the undercity. Coruscant is the same. It is a dystopian city. Visual reference to Blade Runner in Attack of the Clones could not be clearer. The anti-corporate message of the prequels is no secret, too. We were shown how horrible the undercity of Coruscant is, in contrast to the wealthy and important people living "above." Jedi Temple, rising above everyone, and basically being on the top level of Coruscant, with the Jedi Council chambers quite literally resembling an Ivory Tower - they are secluded and distanced as much as possible from the common people, who suffer underneath them, and they don't even seem to know or notice it. These are basic cinematic allusions and visual storytelling. Whether Lucas intended it or not is another thing, but he should have been more aware of the basic visual language he was using in the film medium. Especially when he is consciously making a reference to another work, and the PT is full of references. Were we supposed to take any issue with it, considering all the visual clues and allusions, or just be in awe of the grand structure of the Jedi Temple and its Council Chambers? Do the Jedi, who are supposedly humble and one with all life, really need a luxurious, giant temple, located on top of the dystopian city, which is antithetical to nature, with a huge tower rising above everyone?
The Jedi's arrogance was clearly displayed more than once in the PT:

And so on. Even more examples in The Clone Wars, but that would be just unfair at this point.

Herein lies the problem: if the Jedi, Mace Windu and Yoda in particular, were never wrong about anything and did everything right and everything within their power, and it was just Palpatine being too good and outplaying and manipulating everything and everyone, then the story is effectively pointless. There is no lesson to it. There is no point. Palpatine is just too good because the plot demands it. What is the viewer supposed to take out of it?

The Jedi were effectively slaves to the Senate and the Chancellor, and they seemed to follow them blindly, until it was too late. They can vote in anything, and all Mace and Yoda could say in response was: "It is done then."

The Republic, as presented in The Phantom Menace, was already beyond repair and bogged in disputes and corruption. So, the question is: what were the Jedi doing all this time? What we see the Jedi Council do is sitting in their tower. In Attack of the Clones, thousands of planetary systems were willing to join Dooku's cause. How did it come to this? What were the Jedi doing? They are keepers of the peace, are they not? They clearly failed to keep the peace. How did it come to this? Sure, Dooku organized the CIS movement, but he did not make everyone to join it. People did it willingly out of legitimate grievances against the Republic. Now you may say, the Jedi did not have any power over such matters, they were not allowed by the Senate to make negotiations, they were simply advisors and did not hold any political power or influence, but then we are back at square one: the Jedi were the slaves of the corrupt Senate, and the latter could do whatever the hell it pleased, and the Jedi could only frown and be useless. What was their point as an institution funded and supported by the Republic then, if they can't make any difference? How much compliance is too much? When will it be impossible to carry on?

Why did Mace and Yoda agree with the notion of using slave people the Republic literally bought, bred solely for combat, without any rights, why did Obi-Wan, Yoda or Mace not debate it on-screen? They have not expressed any concern at all. Yoda went to investigate the army, what conclusion did Yoda come to? Lucas didn't show it. What made him go with it and use it? Especially after Obi-Wan informed that he tracked the bounty hunter to Geonosis, who was living on Kamino, and was a template for the army, and said bounty hunter was clearly in some way in league with the Separatists? Why did Yoda and Mace attack Geonosis? Was there really no way whatsoever to diffuse the situation? Sure, Obi-Wan heard that Dooku had enough droids to overwhelm the Republic. But it was just talk at that point. Dooku hasn't attacked yet. For example, Russia has their forces at the Ukrainian border all the time. So what, are we supposed to make a preemptive strike and start a full scale war? If we follow Yoda and Mace's logic, the world would have been gone a long time ago. Were the Jedi ordered to attack Geonosis by Palpatine/Senate? Were the Jedi conscripted into the military, or did Mace and Yoda volunteer for everyone? We were never shown on-screen. We only know that it was Mace's initiative to go to Geonosis. It was Yoda's initiative to deploy the clone army. Mace and Yoda effectively started the war. In contrast to Qui-Gon, who clearly said: "We can only protect you, but we cannot fight a war for you."

Mace also said that their ability to use the Force has diminished and they should inform the Senate. To which Yoda said that they shouldn't, because it would multiply their adversaries. Why the secrecy? Why not? What adversaries? Mace clearly recognized, they are walking blind, and they have been fooled all around. They could not see the creation of the army, they could not see anything, and the Republic was on the brink of war, engulfed in corruption, disputes and separatism. At worst, what could have happened? The Senate would disband the Jedi and not use their service? So, effectively, they would lose their privileged status and whatever power they had, and become common citizens? What would have happened? It seems more of a "All who gain power are afraid to lose it."

To quote an article "Attack of the Clones and the politics of Star Wars" to summarize:

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the Jedi collectively. No way. None of them deserved anything that happened to them, and they effectively had no choice, because their leadership made a choice for them. They were there to be peacekeepers, diplomats, study and help all life. That's why the Force sensitive kids were taken into the Jedi Order in the first place. They were never meant to have their lives ruined and become soldiers without having any say in the matter. Having teenagers command troops and dying on the battlefields was horrible. What happened was horrible and wrong all around. But I do blame the leadership - Mace Windu and Yoda, because they allowed it to happen, either willingly or through negligence. They are responsible for their institution, their children, and they are responsible for the way they functioned as a governmental institution in a social contract between them and the Republic. You can't blame it all on the will of the Force, no. You have to take responsibility for your actions. They have effectively allowed the Empire to rise right under their noses, while acting as its enforcers, and they could not sense Palpatine across the table in front of them. This is arrogance, hubris, compliance and negligence. Or you could say that Palpatine was uber-powerful space wizard, who cast "The Dark Side Shroud"™ spell that cost 350 mana points, and it made Yoda and Mace quite literally blind and stupid. But then the story of the prequels is effectively pointless and is not worth telling.

 

That is literally what happens in AOTC though.

 

I choose to view it as a metaphor, rather than a literal thing. They simply blame the Force for their naivety and are not willing to take responsibility for their own negligence, incompetence, hubris and arrogance, until it is too late (after all, in Revenge of the Sith, after everything went to hell, both Yoda and Obi-Wan finally did admit that they had failed). All the visual cues, the language of cinema, the symbolism — everything points to that. As does the conclusion of the prequel trilogy. Surely, all-wise Masters cannot be wrong, blind and incompetent, it's the Dark Side, you see.

 

But it did literally happen. Yoda and Mace even have a scene where they discuss whether they should tell the senate that their ability to use the force has diminished or not.

Wait, do you tell yourself that these things aren't happening as you watch the movie?

 

I addressed it in my post. Mace basically admitted their incompetence and inability to function properly (as Yoda said, "Blind we are if the creation of this clone army we could not see."), but Yoda chose to carry on anyway, because of some potential "adversaries."

 

So, yes. You pretend the movie doesn't include the very things that you stated make the films,

and

 

@silentfault

Very comprehensive post. The Jedi were subservient to a corrupt senate that didn't work, to the point that they had to be sent in secret by the chancellor to do their jobs. The Jedi mistrust the political process, yet decide to go along with it. "Our allegiance is to the senate, not to its leader," Obi-Wan says. Yet in AotC he talks to Anakin about his mistrust of all politicians. Lucas has equated the bureaucracy of the senate with the Jedi Council, calling them both "inactive." I think they were both complacent and complicit institutions.

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, I think Mace, as the second-in-command of the Jedi, exemplifies their order's faults. Yoda does as well, but to a lesser extent. Mace ironically says "Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character." Later he tries to assassinate Palpatine himself. I think this is to show that the war has almost completely eroded the Jedi's principles. Lucas does talk about how the Jedi were corrupted by the war.

I think the importance of Qui-Gon as an outlier to the Jedi Council cannot be overstated. Indeed, he says that "I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you." Something that Mace later echoes, but then seems to forget. Qui-Gon lives by his words that "We can not use our power to help her." Dooku claims that Qui-Gon knew "all about the corruption in the senate," this seemingly being why he was such a rebel to the council. Qui-Gon actually saw the corruption and inactivity and decided to go along his own path. I think the other Jedi were more detached from people, while Qui-Gon understood the true meaning of compassion. Even he had his arrogant moments, like calling the TF cowards and suggesting that Jar Jar might be brainless, but he was willing to connect with people. Obi-Wan, who is more in line with Yoda and the council, wants to leave Jar Jar behind, doesn't see the utility he may provide, and calls him and Anakin "pathetic lifeforms." No lifeform should be "pathetic" to a Jedi, not even one as small as a midi-chlorian. And to Qui-Gon they aren't. Qui-Gon is the only Jedi to speak of the Living Force, the Will of the Force, and the midi-chlorians as symbionts. Qui-Gon was a free spirit, and he didn't want to be stuck to a council chair. Lucas says that Qui-Gon is not neutral, implying that in contrast, the Jedi Council was neutral.

 

Wall of text and images incoming...

Indeed. I think it is telling, that the Jedi chose to act in their own interest and oppose the Senate and the Chancellor for the first time only when the Chancellor himself decided to put Anakin on the Council, thus attempting to control them directly. Ergo, what made them act was a threat to their own power, secrecy and what they viewed as "sovereignty" (did they even have one to begin with, considering their position within the government of the Republic?). However, they have always been nothing but the Senate's enforcers, going along with everything, and seemingly having no power whatsoever to oppose it. The thing is, of course Palpatine was an agent of evil and such, but why his manipulations were so effective, is because a lot of them were either half-truths or slightly twisted truths. His statement "All who gain power are afraid to lose it, even the Jedi" is very relevant. Considering their ineffectiveness as an institution in the first place (given they either cannot or do not want to oppose the corrupt Senate and everything they do, they either cannot or do not want to influence the situation in any way, as we were never shown any action taken by them, only quiet complicity), why could they not disclose about their "diminished ability to use the Force?" Why could they not be honest? Okay, I am speculating here, but the Senate could have possibly declared the Jedi as unfit for duty, or something, thus effectively making them common citizens. Is it that bad? What would have happened? We can't be sure how exactly the situation would have played out. I see it as Yoda being afraid and succumbing to fear.

This was further elaborated in The Clone Wars, in the Temple Bombing arc, as Tarkin threatened the Jedi with shattering of their public image (which was already beyond low, due to the war and propaganda), and demanding to expel Ahsoka, despite knowing that it could be a mistake, that it could be wrong, and the evidence being circumstantial at best, and no investigation being made whatsoever. On one hand, it shows how powerless the Jedi were against the Senate and this overwhelming, ruthless and tyrannical military machine that they had unwittingly helped to build, how corrupt were the courts and the entire judicial system of the Republic, how politically compromised they were, but on the other hand, one must ask, what were the Jedi so afraid of? Tarkin didn't even threaten them with treason or anything like that, he just pushed a little bit, gave them a hint, that their status and power could be threatened. Given their questionable effectiveness and the state of the Republic in the first place, again, what would have happened if the Senate chose to discard the Jedi's service? Sure, you could say that they could have been outlawed, framed in every way possible, and so on. You could say that the Jedi had no way out, it was a lose-lose situation, and they had lost a long time ago, and it was just dominos falling. But then again, isn't Star Wars about doing the right thing, even in the face of certain death and failure? Isn't it about staying true to yourself, your principles, and doing what is right? Isn't it about Luke discarding his weapon in defiance of the Emperor, and saying "Never?" The question is, was being attached to this deeply deceased Republic, to this political power they had, to the detriment of what makes them Jedi, at the cost of their principles, worth it?

One of the core themes of the prequels is that "You can't stop the change, any more than you can stop the suns from setting." Perhaps, the Republic had to change? It was not functioning in its current state. It is a double-edged sword, because sure, the Jedi had justification for their acts, as they knew the Sith were behind the CIS, but most of the members of the CIS just wanted out of the Republic. They were sick of it. Need I remind you, thousands of systems willingly joined Dooku. The state did not function, and the Jedi either could not or did not want to do anything about it. The negotiations were not made. Only war. And the Jedi are supposed to be negotiators, diplomats and peacekeepers. That is their function. The only time there was an attempt at negotiations was when Padme and Ahsoka secretly traveled to the Separatist capitol of Raxus, but these negotiations (which were almost successful) were jeopardized by Dooku and Grievous. Well, at least Padme tried, and she has my utmost respect for that, because she was willing to listen and attempted a different course of actions for once. Why secretly? Well, because the Separatists were outlawed, and they could not negotiate with them openly, because it would legitimize them. Again, exactly the same situation as in the Separatist crisis in Ukraine. Ukraine does not negotiate with self-proclaimed separatists, because they do not recognize them in any way. Another time, in Revenge of the Sith, Padme was already outright questioning if they were fighting for the wrong side. They should let the diplomacy resume. This war represents a failure to listen, she said. Because the Separatists, despite the corrupt leadership of the Sith (much like the Republic, that was controlled by the Sith — the Republic/CIS were two sides of the same coin), were still people. And no one listened to them. Not the Republic, not the Jedi, too. People were effectively ignored. If the Jedi could not do anything about it, I, yet again, question the point of them as an institution within the Republic. If they did not want or did not care, it's even worse.

True. I find it hilarious, when Mace apologists try to justify his attempt at extrajudicial execution. The scene clearly mirrors word-by-word Anakin's execution of Dooku, which he knew was wrong and not the Jedi way. The scene mirrors Luke sparing Vader. Three different scenes, with Sith Lords being defeated and at mercy of our Jedi hero, and only one of them is resulted in what's right.

It is important to state here, that there is a possibility that, perhaps, Palpatine was faking it — and only based on the fact, that Palpatine electrocuted Windu after Anakin attacked him. So we, as the audience, know that post-factum. However, the characters in the movie don't. It is also important to note, that Anakin's ulterior motives (saving Padme) are irrelevant. He wanted to do the right thing for the wrong reason. Lucas said, that Anakin would try to get the secrets out of him when Palps was in prison, or something like that. It is a question of principle and what is right. Mace could not have known for sure that Palpatine was 100% faking it. Palpatine surrendered. He quite literally exclaimed that he was done, and he was begging for his life. Note, that at first, he didn't do it when Mace knocked him down. He said: "No, no, no, you will die!" as he tried to kill him with Force Lightning. But when he failed and fried his face, for all intents and purposes, he gave up. Note, that even as Mace swings for a killing blow, Palpatine was shocked and afraid, he even covered his face in fear that he would die now.

Come on, don't say you believe he calculated even that. No, he was playing it legit. It meant death for him if Anakin hadn't intervened. And this action, as Lucas said, convinced Anakin that everyone was after power, the Jedi were as bad as the Sith, but at least the Sith could help him to save Padme. Notice, how Palpatine was even surprised at first as Anakin cut off Windu's arm, and only then he came to realization, smiled, and exclaimed "Poweeeeer!" and electrocuted him. He won, completely and utterly. He survived, and got the Chosen One as his prized pupil, and he won ideologically — he eroded the Jedi's principles, not only in Anakin, but in Mace Windu himself. But even if he had died, I believe he would have won regardless. I think this situation somewhat mirrors the "What's in the Box?" scene from the movie "Se7en." Even if Mace had succeeded in killing Palpatine, the victory would have been pyrrhic. Not only he would have compromised his principles and what makes him a Jedi, but what would follow is likely his arrest, and the Jedi being outlawed and hunted down by the Senate regardless, as what Mace did was extrajudicial execution of the elected head of the state, and for all people knew, the latter was merely defending himself. Remember, the public and the Senate didn't exactly love the Jedi. Their support was very, very low. Everyone was cheering at their executions, when Palps declared them traitors to be hunted down. Mace really had no evidence of Palpatine being an actual criminal and a traitor behind everything, he allegedly knew that he was a Sith, from Anakin's hearsay. And even if he was a Sith, it is hardly relevant to most people. The trains run on time. Everyone loved Palpatine, regardless.

And then again, The Clone Wars does a great job exploring it further. To quote Yoda: "In this war, a danger there is of losing who we are." Mace clearly embraced his newly gained military position, and perhaps it changed him. From how he introduced himself: "I am General Mace Windu of the Jedi Order" to how he still thought the war could be won by fighting, when in reality they had lost the moment they took the bait and attacked Geonosis. When Yoda returned from his spiritual journey at the end of the war, there were three people there: Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan. The same people we see at the end of AotC, when the war had begun.

The first thing that Mace asked: "Did your journey give you insights on how to win the war?" To which Yoda responded: "No longer certain that one ever does win a war I am. For in fighting the battles, the bloodshed, already lost we have." After all, Yoda came to realization that "Wars not make one great." And Obi-Wan later in his life understood that, too: "You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting."

Also, the imagery of the sacred Jedi Temple — a place that is supposed to be about peace, tranquility, spiritual enlightenment — hosting military hangars, weapons and vehicles of destruction and war, having military rooms is very disturbing and antithetical to everything that the Jedi are supposed to stand for. And Barriss Offee specifically bombed the military hangar — a symbol of what had become wrong with the Jedi Order, because she couldn't stand the hypocrisy anymore, she couldn't resolve the contradiction.


Yet again, was it worth it? Is it worth it to lose who you are in an attempt to preserve the status quo, or should you stay integral to yourself, throw away your weapon, and state: "No, I am a Jedi. This is wrong. I will not do this. There has to be another way."
From my point of view, ultimately, you absolutely can't reconcile this:

with the way the Jedi acted in the prequels. You simply cannot. In my view, the same people who defend the PT Jedi unquestionably cannot accept Return of the Jedi. The two simply contradict one another. Sure, you can say the PT Jedi were trapped and they had no way out, and I fully agree with you. But that's not what Star Wars is about. Consider this: Luke was as well trapped, completely and utterly. He saw the Rebel fleet being demolished and outnumbered. The Emperor told him that there was actually an elite legion of his troops on the Endor moon waiting for his friends, because he predicted it. So, for all intents and purposes, he did not know at all that his friends would succeed. Consider the implications of that: not only all of his friends would die, but the Galaxy would continue to be ruled with an iron fist, had he failed. The temptation was enormous. The situation, from Luke's POV, was desperate. Not killing Vader and the Emperor was really not a sound decision. Had Vader not turned, they could have escaped, and all would have been for nothing. Or the Rebels could have lost. But Luke made the right decision. He let go of his sister (that Vader threatened to turn), his Rebel friends (that the Emperor threatened), and he let go of his very life. He threw away his weapon, and surrendered himself at the mercy of the Force. The ultimate selfless, Jedi act. Because he stayed integral to himself, and true to what he believed in, he did the right thing despite the possible consequences. And I believe this is what Star Wars is about, most importantly. And the narrative, or destiny, fate, the Force - whatever - will reward you for it with success. And it did. Anakin returned to the light, and the Rebels won, despite all odds. 50 kilo one meter tall teddy bears defeated an elite legion of the Imperial Army. As silly as it may sound, the Force willed it, despite it being not logical or plausible. I believe it is a direct result, metaphysically, of Luke doing what's right. This is what Star Wars is, after all, a fairy tale of good versus evil with good prevailing against all odds - for children to teach them to do what's right, to give them faith and courage to do what's right, first and foremost. Doing good, right thing beats plausibility and logic. Foolish idealism, impractical, doesn't work in real world? Probably. But I believe that's what SW is about.

Who knows, maybe if the Jedi in the PT hadn't succumbed to the bait, maybe if they were more thoughtful, attentive, sensible, didn't compromise their principles and everything the Jedi stand for — who knows how it would have turned out, how the Force would have willed it. Because, of course, we know that the Force is ultimately on the good guys' side. It even sends the Chosen Ones to sort out the mess. The Force inherently strives to get rid of the Sith. So I suggest that maybe, perhaps, that war and twenty years of tyranny could have been avoided, not just by Anakin, who just had enough of everything and had completely different priorities at this point, because he was on the brink of mental collapse, utterly confused and alone, but also by the Jedi, namely Mace and Yoda who are very responsible, too.

 

@silentfault

Much food for thought again.

Yes, the Jedi only started to act against Palpatine when he gained powers over them. They were willing to commit treason to spy on him. It is unquestionable that the war is supposed to have changed the Jedi. Even Anakin comments on it: "Sometimes I wonder what's happening to the Jedi Order. This war is destroying the principles of the Republic." But they wouldn't act on the corruption of the senate. Later, when they plan to remove Palpatine from office and "secure a peaceful transition," they're essentially protecting the corrupt state of the senate and trying to pass it over to another chancellor.

The Jedi Temple concealing instruments of war is interesting, to say the least. You get this ominous shot of the central spire of the temple, and then for the first time it is revealed that the top of the tallest tower is the war room.




This of course mirrors the Separatist war room. It's also a contrast to the Jedi Council chambers. You have the same kind of circular pattern on the floor.




I think it's on purpose a dark, secretive looking place. There the Jedi plot to remove the chancellor from office and take control of the senate. Yoda says that "To a dark place this line of thought will carry us." But they were already (literally) in a dark place. The shroud of the dark side had fallen and the Clone War was raging, and they were a part of it. I think these shots really show what the Jedi had become.

 

i think the prequel trilogy was very clear about that.
qui-gon wasnt allowed in the council because of his different opinions of how the jedi should be. the jedi were too deep into the political aspect of the republic, they fought as generals and criticized the other side "you sound like a separatist".

dooku told obi-wan that the republic is in control by darth sidius, and he told him where he got that information. you know what happened with it ? nothing.

the couldnt see the dark side coming, because of their own hubris, not because of some kind of magical spell the sith put on them.
they found out a secret military in the secret planet stolen from the jedi library, what did they do ? took over that military without second thought (or at least they thought they did) .

in TPM obi-wan originally referred to anakin as a pathetic life-form




that is why they were destroyed.

 

I too think that the dark side clouding the Jedi's vision is more a metaphor. Or that they already suffered from hubris, which allowed the dark side to take hold and amplified its effects. The Jedi and Dooku say that it is the dark side that has clouded their vision, but then Palpatine says that arrogance blinds Yoda. It's the arrogance, and the dark side within themselves, that blinded them.

I think it's interesting that Obi-Wan calls Anakin and Jar Jar "pathetic lifeforms," because it seems to go against everything the Jedi are about. The Jedi are about connecting with all lifeforms and the Force in them. Qui-Gon sounds a bit annoyed when he responds to Obi-Wan, "It's the boy who was responsible for getting us these parts." It's like he strongly disagrees. He believed that even a lifeform as small as a midi-chlorian was important and that one should live as a symbiont with them.
It's not just in TPM where Obi-Wan seems dismissive of other lifeforms, or non-lifeforms. In RotS, he leaves the clone pilots behind while Anakin, who is arguably more like Qui-Gon in many ways, wants to go help them. He is also dismissive of droids, and Lucas has said that relationships with droids are also symbiotic. So Obi-Wan's conduct seems to go against the theme of "symbiotic circles." Which I think is supposed to be indicative of the Jedi having lost their way. They live on a planet and participate in a system wherein their symbiotic circle with the people they're supposed to be serving no longer functions. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda start speaking of the Force in a manner similar to Qui-Gon in the OT, after they have been trained by him.

 

I keep seeing people put these scenes together and call them mirroring situations (except with the Jedi making a different decision), but to me, the circumstances are very different. I see it as a false equivalence.

Anakin killing Dooku vs. Mace (attempting to) kill Sidious:
Yes that line "too dangerous to be kept alive" came up in both, but the situations make that same line a nonsense excuse in one case but a legitimate reason in the other.
Dooku is weaker than Sidious to begin with and lost both hands. What is a handless prisoner with no control of the senate and courts going to do?
Now look at Sidious. Yes he appears too weak to shoot more Force lightning at the moment, but waiting for the trial and execution takes a long time and he might recover enough to attack more people before then. Sidious is very powerful, both physically and politically, so it's just too big a risk to let him live that much longer, a risk Mace can't afford to take.

Mace (attempting to) kill Sidious vs. Luke (potentially could) kill Vader:
Let's get this straight, who was Mace trying to kill? Darth Sidious, the Sith Master, the one behind everything including the war, the source of evil and danger. Who could Luke have potentially killed? Darth Vader, who is neither the most powerful Sith nor the source of evil in the galaxy. Sidious literally calls him his “servant” in his face and Vader says nothing. What would Luke accomplish by killing Vader? Nothing.
Now if Luke had defeated Sidious and was deciding whether or not he should kill him, then that would be a fair comparison to Mace’s situation. I don’t see any reason to not go for the kill.

And that’s just the practical aspect. The difference with the emotional aspect is also clear: Sidious is not Mace’s father.

Anakin killing Dooku vs. Luke (potentially could) kill Vader:
See above for the practical difference. I understand that Dooku is just the apprentice, but the Jedi at the time didn’t know for sure if “Darth Sidious” actually existed if Dooku just made that up to create mistrust. As far as Anakin can visibly see, Dooku is their top enemy.

In addition, the emotional aspects of the Anakin and Luke scenarios are also very different. The difference is arguably even greater than between the Mace and Luke scenarios. Anakin had much more reason to kill whereas Luke had much more reason to not kill.

An analogy of Anakin's situation for Luke might be something like this: Luke fights Sidious and beats him down. Then Obi Wan appears as a Force ghost and says, “Kill him, kill him now. Do it.” Don’t underestimate the effect of those words on Anakin. Anakin at the time did not know that Palpatine is Sidious. He saw Palpatine as a “friend and mentor” whom he trusts for “guidance,” who has “watched out for me[him] ever since I[he] arrived here[in Coruscant].” His words mean a lot to him.

An analogy of Luke's situation for Anakin might be something like this: Anakin finds out that Grievous is his father. He can feel the conflict in Grievous. They both try to get each other to join their own side, but both fail. Grievous says he “must” obey his master and Dooku calls Grievous his “servant.” Anakin fights Grievous and beats him down. Dooku then laughs and says, “Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!”

To sum up:
Mace had every reason to kill Sidious, Anakin not so much, and Luke had more reason to not kill.

 

yes

 

I posted the following in another thread some time ago, but I feel it has relevance.

 

Let's not forget that ROTJ ends with Anakin killing Palpatine. So if Anakin can kill Palpatine, I don't see why Mace can't kill Palpatine and spare the galaxy 20 years of Dark Times.


Were the Jedi people? Yes. Then of course they were flawed, as people are.

Sinfully flawed? Not imo.

They didn't start the war. Palpatine did. He literally built both armies with the intention of starting a war, united a bunch of greedy, cowardly corporatists who have no legitimate complaint with the Republic and wouldn't have the backbone for violence without Sith support, and then controlled both sides. Pointing out that Dooku hasn't attacked yet is myopic. He will. He even says as much.

The Republic is largely counting on the Jedi. If the Jedi admit that their ability to use the Force has diminished, many will lose faith in them and the Republic and then join the other side. Their adversaries will multiply like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

Well, there's two sides to that coin. If there's nothing supernatural about it, they're just quite literally blind and stupid, anyway. It goes far beyond just arrogance, hubris, compliance, and negligence, because as you said, he's literally right across the table from them and they deal with him regularly. McDiarmid isn't exactly subtle, either.

I can buy the shroud of the dark side just being metaphor. It should be. The Jedi are just portrayed so badly that it defies suspension of disbelief without the magic spell. They're not believable as intelligent human beings otherwise.

 

The thing is, it's not a metaphor. The Jedi state in the movie that their ability to use the force has diminished and it's because of this dark side shroud.

The issue stems from GL needing his plot to occur with the least amount of resistance. So he just made the Jedi (and most other characters) have ridiculously low IQ's.

AOTC should have ended with the Jedi putting the pieces together, but just being too late to do anything about it. They'd come off looking unfortunate that way, but not stupid. You could establish that the Jedi know that Dooku is a Sith and is leading one side of the war and that there is some unknown Sith Lord that is manipulating a majority of senators in the senate. This would give them reason to start keeping a closer eye on the senate and the Chancellor.

Then, once ROTS starts, establish that the Jedi have been acting in the shadows to try and find out who the unknown Sith Lord is. This would have led to the Jedi making decisions that don't make a lot of sense to the senate and has caused the senate to grow distrustful of the Jedi. You could ALSO establish that there's no way anyone would believe that the Sith have returned which could be a reason for Mace Windu to not inform the senate once he finds out that Palpatine is the Sith Lord... because they'd think he was nuts.

Once you start moving these plot pieces around you can actually start to fix a lot of these weird problems. Wouldn't it be tragic if the Jedi were proactive and actually found out what was happening. but no one believed them. Seems more tragic than, they were just dumb and got what they got.

The Jedi's downfall didn't need to be hubris... hubris was just the easiest way to tell this story so GL jumped on it.

 

it was talked about again and again and again but ill say this (again)

jedi should NOT kill when they can avoid it. but dooku was considered a traitor of the republic, the leader of the separatists, which already considered by many as a sovereign power, the head of its armed forces and a separatist.
being a sith technically allow the jedi to kill him BUT he is also in a special position. you cant just go around killing leaders left and right. count dooku was still the leader of many planets. his ARREST was necessary. he also knew high quality information, including the identity of the mysterious sith lord.

with palpatine, again, he was a sith so jedi technically can kill him BUT he is also holding the highest position in the republic. a man like that, sith or not, he must be found as a traitor by the trator by the senate, and let them handle it. darth maul is just another sith, he is killable. if palpatine was still just another sith he was also killable. the supreme-chancellor ? its a whole different story.

 

IF they are getting weaker, and thats a huge IF, its only because they devoted enough as they used to be. they are too mixed up with the republic and meetings and secret missions that doesnt have anything to do with the jedi.
you are putting too much emphasis on the a "dark side shroud". do you expect yoda, a jedi master or mace windu to say "we suck at being jedi, so we cant figure out who is the sith" ? its much easier to blame someone else for your mistakes.

thats dumb. are you trying to say that no one would listen to people are actually extremely trusted among in galaxy, they are also extremely influential in the politics and generals of militaries.
they can go to a pub, slash some one hand and say "jedi business".

are you saying people wont listen to them ? jedi are giving hope to many around them, especially in places like tatooine.

your claim is ridiculous and doesnt make sense.

*during AOTC, palpatine was still not as powerful and influential as he was in ROTS, there were plenty who would listen to them over the senators, who abandon them many times.

hubris is actually a very complicated way to tell a story. in order to establish hubris, you need to establish reason and history of power (usually after being weak).

and its also alot way more interesting than the overused i-told-you-so.

and its not a just plot device, its the story of star wars.