PT What’s wrong with Lucas changing his mind from 1983 to 1999?

Qui-Gon: "Midichlorians are microscopic life forms that exist within all living cells"

"Without the Midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the force."

I think people are asking the wrong question by assuming that the force was totally redefined later. It wasn't. Everyone in the SW universe has midichlorians. Everyone has at least some access to the force, but not everyone can be like Luke or Anakin. Otherwise, why was Luke chosen to save the universe?
Why was Luke's sister the only other last hope if Luke failed?
What is all this talk about "The force is strong in him" or "the force is strong in my family"? Luke and Leia(or whatever other long lost sister was first planned) aren't "strong in the force" because they took karate lessons all their life. They didn't. They're said in the OT to be strong in the force because they were born that way.

"There is another" was always going to be Luke's sister, whether it was a new character, or made to be Leia, however, Rotj clearly defines it as Leia, so it's just Leia. We can't say "It couldn't be Leia because she was captured so there is someone else" because it was later revealed to be Leia.

There's nothing like that in the movies (or anywhere else that I've seen). Maybe you're referring to fan discussions or something. In the movie, it's simply used as a way to explain Anakin's extraordinary potential, and also how the Jedi recruit. Did Anakin's ultimate "power level" bring him guaranteed victory? No. He was defeated several times. They're so rarely brought up, and when they are, it's analogous to any previous explanations of the force(see above).

Also, losing limbs does not mean losing midichlorians. They would still be in your cells at the same concentration in the rest of your body. It's something you're born with. You can't lose it.
If I lost my hand on a table saw, would I suddenly be anemic? Or vitamin D deficient? I would have a disability, because now I have one hand, but it wouldn't upset the systemic balance of my cells, or change my genetic make up! If I had a child, would they be born with one hand like me?

 

I agree 100%. And I think I have an explanation for why George Lucas said Anakin became less powerful as a result of being less of a living thing, if midi-chlorians are measured by concentration in cells. He didn’t lose his midi-chlorian count, but part of his “Living Force” aura, which GL has said is what powers the Jedi’s abilities.

edit: here’s the quote I was thinking of “The Personal Force is the energy field created by our cells interacting and doing things while we are alive. When we die, we lose our persona and our energy is assimilated into the Cosmic Force. If we have enough Midichlorians in our body, we can have a certain amount of control over our Personal Force and learn how to use it, like the Buddhist practice of being able to walk on hot coals. The Jedi will train you to connect to your Personal Force, and then to connect to the Cosmic Force. You don't have much power to control the Cosmic Force, but you can make use of it.”

so here it says control over the personal force is a result of midi-chlorian count, so I’m not sure if I’m on the right track, or if Anakin was weakened because he lost a part of his total midi-chlorians but kept the same concentration in his remaining cells

 

@Watcherwithin
I dunno, but Obi Wan was definitely testing the concentration of midichlorians when he did that blood test on Anakin. If young Anakin has 10,000 in ep1, he would still have 10,000 if he did a test after losing his hand, and 10,000 if he did a test after losing his legs and other arm, assuming the number can't change over time for other reasons or health reasons unrelated to losing limbs.

 

Undoubtably, and it makes sense if concentration is what matters, as Anakin and Luke don’t grow weaker after only losing an arm. But if we take into account that GL consistently says Anakin was weakened after his duel with Obi-Wan grievous injury to the body weakens force powers in some way.

 

The point is that as a flesh and blood person has a strong connection to the Force. But becoming machine reduces his connection to the Force. That's why droids cannot use the Force.

 

Droids can’t use the Force because they have no organic cells, so no midi-chlorians and no personal force. They can’t physically link with the Force. My question is whether the difference in strength of connection between a healthy human and a delimbed, burned human is because the burned person now has less midi-chlorians (which would contradict the concentration per cell being the determinant of strength) or because they now have less “life force” (like Mother Talzin stole from the dagoyans in TCW)

but maybe I’m thinking too literally, obviously the fact that Anakin now has droid parts with no connection to the Force would be him being less of a living thing.

 

there is some interview somewhere released after 2005 (dont know where i read it and when) that anakin after the fight in mustafar reduced his potential to about 70% as he would be able. but luke has equal maximum potential to normal anakin, and that is why vader needed luke to beat the emperor. and the reason he is so weakened, is because of his injuries of the fight in mustafar.

to my understanding, when he lost his limbs and burned to crisp, he lost many cells. because of his immense power, he is still powerful enough to use the force but not nearly as much as he was before the suit. the difference is like a ninja and a cripple.


but all those internet interviews are very unreliable. many are either made up or misunderstood. only the taped ones are reliable.

why would it contradict ? arm have cells in it. less cells, less midichlorians.

 

In Star Wars archives 1999 - 2005, Paul Duncan interviewed George more recently, and George once again says if Anakin hadn’t lost to Obi-Wan he would have grown stronger than the Emperor. So he’s been pretty consistent about this plot point

 

in my personal opinion, the biggest factor is not the limbs thing. the biggest factor is destroyed breathing and other crucial organs. vader's' suit is meant to "replace" almost completely destroyed organs like lungs, heart, bones, protective organs etc. but my guess is the suit also requires the patient's body to work over-time aswell. it makes it harder for a force user to concentrate.

but that is just a fan-fiction opinion for fun.
it relies on absolutely nothing.

 

Right.

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor."

--George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

"The interesting thing about these movies is that they refer back to lots of cinematic influences," McDiarmid explains. "When my face changes in the film, my mind went back to the early silent movie of The Phantom of the Opera with Lon Chaney. In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin makes a Faustian pact with the devil, and I do everything I can to use him as raw material in every sense to become the best apprentice yet. So even when he's horribly savaged from the fight and it's not clear if he'll live, he's reborn as this Frankenstein monster. Sidious then realizes Vader will be an even greater asset because his humanity has been mechanized, which is exactly what happens to people when they are seduced by Fascism."

--Ian McDiramid, Homing Beacon interview, 2005.

Nearly all of my quotes are taken verbatim.

 

Vader is clearly shown to be more powerful in the force as a fully matured Sith Lord than he was as Anakin the Jedi. Perhaps Anakin had a greater potential, but never reached it as a Jedi. Vader is weaker is in his physical limitations, which are enormous. He didn't just lose his limbs. He lost his lungs, his sense of touch, his sense of smell. He can no longer eat, and he's trapped in this awkward medieval space suit. Just living minute to minute as Vader is misery. His physicality is ruined.

I mean, Vader can fly when he wants to. I've never seen Anakin do that

 

Anakin flew fighters and standard ships whenever he could. As Vader, he mainly pilots his TIE Advanced. Rest of the time, he's letting others fly him around.

 

it is well known that SW (i noticed that most is in the prequels) are filled with references to films and historical events GL got his inspirations from. that includes story, background, music and even the atmosphere of the scene.

but i dont think it can fully explain the technical reasons of the reduction in power.
darth vader is by far weaker than anakin skywalker from ROTS. darth vader can GLIDE (not fly!!!). big whoop. its a useless power. its very possible we never saw anakin do it because he never tried to learn it. anakin was fighting in a galactic war, he strengthened only the power he needed for fighting. to survive battles and win them. gliding is not one of them. gliding is show-off power.


on the other hand, vader choked people from TV.

it is possible in battle anakin would win but with force adult vader is on top.

 

The gliding bit isn't really a power. All he's doing is jumping the stairs, rather than walking down them like in ROTJ. There was no way to have Vader do a flip without it looking awkward.

 

One thing that is sad is that in episode 3, we see that Palpatine's face is deformed because of his rays, for me it would be better if it was because of the excess of the dark side.

 

This is just not true.

10,000 midichlorians as a measurement was not a measurement of concentration/density, such as particles/kg or particles/volume.

It was an absolute number. So at the moment Anakin loses limbs, he loses midichlorians.

But I agree that this did not redefine anything. It just added to the lore. Nothing in the OT is contradicted by midichlorians.

 

Midichlorian count per cell was what the TPM novel said.

 

The novel, not the movie

 

we can assume the novel is accurate.
In the movie Obi-Wan analyzed a blood sample, only small portion of Anakin’s cells, so it stands to reason the number 20,000 is a per cell count.

you’re right than losing limbs lowers your total midi-chlorian count, but total amount in your body doesn’t necessarily equal strength. Otherwise creatures with more cells would be stronger

 

Uhm, no, I don't think I can.

I doubt that. The way it is shown, it feels like they're talking about total numbers.

No, creatures with more midichlorians would be stronger.

 

also keep in mind

ROTS Novel: Padme Amidala was the youngest queen elected on Naboo

Padme: AOTC "I wasn't the youngest queen ever elected"

but don't worry 'we can assume the novel is right'

 

https://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

When Episode I came out a few people were upset by the role midi-chlorians played in the Force — particularly when a drop of Anakin’s blood revealed an unusually high number of them in his system. As Lucas explained in a talk with author Terry Brooks, who was about to start writing the novelization of the film, “In Anakin’s case, there are, instead of one or two or three midi-chlorians in each cell, there’s like a thousand. It’s unbelievable how many midi-chlorians are in there.”

The actual number ended up being higher.

I need a midi-chlorian count.
The reading is off the chart. Over 20,000.
Even Master Yoda doesn't have a midi-chlorian count that high.

 

well, at least you gave a source.

But you can forgive those that take the novel's claims about certain things with a very large pinch of salt when they get major things wrong, right?

 

Well, The Maker has spoken, so color me corrected. And no, I don't take the novelizations of the movies very seriously, since they got so much stuff wrong anyway.

But when George Lucas explains a concept in Star Wars, well, I listen. It still doesn't change my statement about no contradiction.
And it still explains why someone like Anakin would lose a lot of his Force potential when losing a bunch of limbs.

 

I didn’t mean we can assume the novels are correct in all cases. Just that logically it must be per cell concentration based on the movie script. And it turns out that’s true