What caused Palpatine's change of appearance?

I thought it was being thrown into a reactor shaft that destroyed him.

 

End of argument, huh? So I guess this thread doesn't really exist!!! It's just a figment of our collective imagination.

These quotes ( or ones tantamount to them ) have been out for quite some time, and it didn't end the argument.

Why not? Well, because of a monolithic theory that only George Lucas knows anything.

Ian weighed in on this issue, and was disregarded ( then again, he did say that Sidious was 500 times faster than the Jedi, or something ). Rick McCallum, the producer of the entire trilogy, weighed in on the same side of the argument, and was disregarded. John Knoll offered comments on the DVD, and was largely ignored. Matt Stover backed up all of the above in his novel, and it still doesn't matter.

Because Lucas didn't come out of his groundhog hole and issue an "official pronouncement".

Thus dooming us to six more months of "I think it was the lightning."

 

OMG I can't believe you guys are still arguing over this.

 

Well my belief on this is that Palpatines pure evil hidden deep inside and full consumption in the Darkside of the force along with the amount of lightning being deflected on his face created his new appearence.

Do I think this because I do not believe the pure lightning theory or revelation of true self?

No I view it this way because I think it's a cooler story this way.

GL left it open because thats what an artist should do. He should never give his own opinions on his artwork because it affects how people view the art, and a lot of the times for the worse.

 

Largely the debate continues because at Darth Sidious' databank entry at starwars.com it says

"The Jedi eventually discovered Palpatine's Sith leanings and confronted the Chancellor. Sidious lashed out with blinding speed, brandishing a previously hidden lightsaber blade in a sudden strike that killed all of the Jedi Masters Mace Windu had assembled to arrest the Chancellor. With Anakin Skywalker's help, Sidious was able to defeat Mace, though he was severely scarred by the reflected power of his dark side lightning. To conceal his disfigured visage, Sidious returned to his simple Sith robes."

It says this very straight forward. The lightning disfigured him. People who support the lightning theory can (and have) argued that people like McDiarmid were speaking metaphorically (which Pablo even says). Those that support either the mask, or darkside theories meanwhile cannot get around what the OS says, even though the lightning explanation makes less sense (IMO). If the OS databank was changed to read that it was a mask or dark side energy that disfigured Palpatine, then the argument would most likely end. Or if Lucas revealed that it was truly the lightning that scarred his face, the argument would end. But since neither is likely to happen, the debate will continue. As the official site says one thing, while McDiarmid, McCallum, and Knoll all say something else but are not definitive (i.e. Pablo says not to give what McDiarmid or McCallum say too much weight as he thinks they are speaking metaphorically, Knoll is vague in what "strain and exertion" means, and McCallum also seemed unsure as to what really caused Palpatine's appearance and acted like he was just making an educated guess.



EDIT: The Depth commentary on Starwars.com reads:

"Palpatine's ravaged face is the result of the power of the

 

Either way, it reveals an evil man. Either it's a mask of sorts being removed and his true face being revealed, or his features being distorted and now more accurately reflecting his inner ugliness. I prefer to think it's the second.

I've mentioned my thoughts on the lightning before, but I guess I need to mention again: Palpatine's results when struck by Force lightning are unique, but at least take into consideration that his conditions are also unique. Nobody else in the saga is struck by their own lightning, and especially not while they're still shooting it out. There are only two other cases of deflected lightning- Yoda vs. Sidious (which ends in an explosion that sense both flying but doesn't directly hit either) and Yoda vs. Dooku- which is another odd case. Dooku's deflected lightning inexplicably causes an explosion. What that means, I'm not sure, but nobody else seems to have commented on it.

Regardless, I'm not especially concerned as to how Palpatine turned ugly, just as long as the explanation doesn't have him walking around in episodes 1 and 2 with a scarred faced beneath his normal face, or some kind of illusion (which can somehow work even in hologram form). That just seems silly to me.

 

the databank is wrong, it has always been a work in progress. it's never 100% fact.

they are coming from the point of view from the movie. when Palpatine goes to the republic and tells them that he "has been scarred" he was lying to the senate and he was lying to Anakin. He looked that way all along. You guys are believing this guy, yet, it's obvious he wasn't deformed by the jedi. he used that to show that Mace was a traitor and tried to kill him. it was his plan all along to look like the victim. like a burned victim. he was masking his real face and he let it out during that scene, lighting or not. the lighting had absolutely nothing to do with it..he needed something to show that he was attacked by the jedi.


Recall, that Luke never turned into a monster in ROTJ, yet he was shoot with 4000 volts for a min or more.

 

Look at the post before yours.

Why do I even bother?

It's a work in progress, but it's also carefully edited. It's not Wookieepedia.

Of course, the thing that makes Palpatine a great liar is that he rarely lies- he tells half-truths.

He's telling the senate that the incident in his office resulted in his new appearance, and he's making it sound like it's the Jedi's fault. In a sense, it is- but all he has to do to twist the facts around is leave out the fact that he was also involved in his own scarring. Just because he's twisting the facts doesn't mean it's an outright lie.

Just like Mace Windu's assassination attempt was real- but Palpatine conveniently leaves out the part about killing three Jedi masters, further provoking Mace after the duel's end, and of course, killing Mace himself. Yet, when he tells the senate that there's been an attempt on his life- he's just twisting the facts.

Oddly enough, even the Jedi's attempted rebellion isn't an outright lie- he predicted that the Jedi would resist his move to turn the Republic into the Empire. Ki-Adi-Mundi suggested something similar, which Yoda warned would be a dangerous path. Of course, he leaves out the fact that this rebellion would occur in response to his actions, or that it was ended before it could actually begin.

'Certain point of view' indeed.

 

Yes, well as I mentioned, the Depth Commentary suggests that the reason Palpatine scares when fighting Mace while nobody else does is because he was putting alot more energy into his lightning making it far more potent.

Again:

-What Knoll says is vague, and does not directly
-McDiarmid in three separate interviews (Insider, comingsoon.net, and some European magazine mentioned earlier in this thread) mentions that Palpatine's face is a mask and that he's really 120 years old, but this seems to possibly be a mixture of metaphor (the mask) and outdated information (Palpatine's age). Pablo says Ian is speaking metaphorically.
-McCallum seemed unsure and spoke in "maybes." I cannot find the quote by him, but if I remember correctly he says something like "The face that bubbles to the surface MAY have been formed by all of the darkside energy that Palpatine is channeling; but it is DEFINITELY the lightning that brings it to the surface."


Now what Blackrook says about Palpatine being in the unique situation of creating a circuit with his own lightning is true, and may also be a valid argument, given that the "circuit" is mentioned in the novelization as (if I remember correctly) feeding the power of his lightning by causing Palpatine pain (i.e. making it extremely potent). Also what McCallum says kind of suggests that the combination of channeling dark side energy and getting hit by his own lightning could have been what scarred him (but again he doesn't make the answer sound at all definitive).

So even after all this analysis of what people have said, we still are unable to narrow down the answer from 3 possibilities:

1. It was the lightning
2. It was the result of him channeling dark side energy
3. It was both

(4. The literal mask theory can probably be discarded at this point as the only evidence of it is the Power of the Jedi game and an issue of Visionaries which doesn't fit into the films or EU canon)

Again, unless the dvds are rereleased with new commentary down the line and the scene is described in more detail, or unless Lucas or someone answers this question in an Issue of Insider or something, there are 3 more-or-less equally supported theories. Which is why debating the issue will probably continue.

 

Can we also make a decision on the Visual Dictionary?

"Two Faces- 'Always two there are' -not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world. But for the Senate, the Jedi could not damage Palpatine's reputation."

While at first glance it seems to describe the mask theory, the fact that it uses 'persona' implies heavily that 'mask' and 'unmask' is meant metaphorically. In that sense, 'true face' likely refers to Palpatine's face now accurately representing the man, rather than a literal unmasking.

Either way, the VD also says "Face deformed by Sith lightning" in reference to an image of Palpatine in his red senate robes. Even after nearly two years, I still have no idea what the next page's "Face has turned yellow in anger" is supposed to mean, since that seems to be a lighting and/or makeup issue on that particular promo image of Palpatine (dressed in his Yoda-dueling outfit), though this problem doesn't seem to be present in the film.

James Luceno wrote the VD and later, in Dark Lord, he writes: "Palpatine wore a voluminous embroidered robe of rich weave, the cowl of which was raised, concealing in shadow the scars he suffered at the hands of the four treasonous Jedi Masters [this part seems to imply that the description is that of Palpatine's public explanation of the events and not the events themselves] who had attempted to arrest him in his chambers in the Senate Office Building, as well as other deformations resulting from his fierce battle with Master Yoda in the Rotunda of the Senate itself." This last part's confusing. Palpatine's appearance doesn't seem to have changed any after his fight with Yoda, though this could be referring to whatever it is the VD is talking about when it says his face turned yellow. None of that really makes any sense to me.

Anyway, moving beyond the 'yellow face' thing. Here's more on Palpatine's deformity: "Palpatine's disfigurements were really nothing new; nor was his deliberate, vaguely contemptuous voice." It goes on to describe various people to which he used this voice in episodes 1 and 2, so I won't list the whole thing. I don't particularly agree with the voice thing, since it seems even his Sidious voice sounds different after the incident in his office (compared even to the hologram on Utapau in the same film), but that's another issue, and an unimportant one at that.

This is really the only source I can find that seems to unambiguously support the idea of a mask. I really can't interpret this any other way. However, other sources conflict with this one- even one written by the same author. What are your thoughts on this?

 

Well, the description of Palpatine's deformities at the hands of Yoda, etc. are EU and so won't necessarily fit what we see in the movie perfectly. Likewise, I believe in the EU it's said that Luke suffered several injuries from Palpatine's lightning. But looking solely at the movie, it doesn't appear that the lightning bolts had any lasting affect on him. And I agree with the statement that Sidious' voice was nothing new, as we can see him speak in such a voice during bursts of anger in ROTS, as when he says "Do it" or "I am the senate!" After the Mace fight, Palpatine finally begins to channel a lot of dark side energy (more so than he was when he was keeping identity hidden from the Jedi) so it makes sense that his voice stays in the deeper tone. Though it's curious as to why Palpatine didn't behave this way even when he was alone with Maul or Dooku.

 

After a quick google search I realize I made a mistake:


-McCallum seemed unsure and spoke in "maybes." I cannot find the quote by him, but if I remember correctly he says something like "The face that bubbles to the surface MAY have been formed by all of the darkside energy that Palpatine is channeling; but it is DEFINITELY the lightning that brings it to the surface."


This quote which reads:

"[It?s] the intensity of reflected lightning and the channeling of such raw dark side power that are the catalysts for Palpatine?s transformation. Perhaps the face that boils up to the surface is shaped by his dark side corruption, but the lightning is definitely the cause."

is actually from Insider #83, I thought it was McCallum that said this, and I'm still not sure if it was or wasn't.

McCallum rather said:

"[...] I think it's the true face of Palpatine. Of course, it takes a little lightning to get it out."

both of which advocate the explanation that it was both the lightning and channeling of darkside power, that it was the circuit of lightning passing through Palpatine, that brought the "Sidious" face out.

 

The way I see it, he's used three voices: Palpatine, Sidous, and Emperor. The Palpatine and Sidious voices are similar, just a change in tone ("are you threatening me, master Jedi?" is spoken in more of a Sidious tone, for example). People think they hear the Emperor voice in TPM, but most of that is hologram distortion- he sounds very much like Palpatine when he meets with Maul and Dooku, like you pointed out. The Emperor voice does jump out at those points in ROTS that you mentioned, but even then, it's still slightly off. I don't think this has more to do with McDiarmid's performance than anything though. He seems to be more comfortable doing the Emperor act when he's in full makeup. I've heard of actors being able to better perform certain roles when their face is hidden (from what I've seen, Mark Hamill doesn't seem comfortable doing his voice work while his face is somehow visible).

Er, we're veering off here. Let's just say Palpatine sounds like he should and leave it at that. As a side note, though- does anyone else think McDiarmid's ROTJ-era Emperor voice seems less convincing in comparison to his ROTS performance? It's still good, but when you compare the two, it's more obvious now that in ROTJ it's a young man playing an old guy.

 

Well, in ROTJ his speech seemed far more exaggerated; more theatrical might be the better word. As when he says things like "strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey toward the dark side will be complete" or "now, I sense that you wish to continue your search for young Skywalker" he greatly exaggerates his lip movement. I might need to watch ROTS again, but just off of memory I do not recall him doing that to the same extent (if at all).

EDIT:I think he may have done it when he says "execute order 66" but that's the only instance that comes to mind.

 

It's also the quality of his voice. By ROTS, McDiarmid's voice had gotten deeper and scratchier with age, so ROTS Palpatine naturally sounds more like frog-voiced old man. In ROTJ, McDiarmid was pretending to sound like an old man, but by 2005, he didn't need to try as hard.

 

I think it was the sith lightning that casued him to age so rapidly...

his voice change on the other hand is a mystery to me....and I don'y believe it got deeper just by age...

 

Exactly...
THE DATABANK IS NOT INFALLIBLE!

IIRC this is the same Databank that claimed, at one point, that Vader disappeared; it also claimed, at one point, that deflector shields go out to just beneath the outer layer of a ship's hull, a concept clearly blown out of the water by any non-brain-dead viewing of TPM. Et cetera, et cetera. It's just content for those who need to see content.

 

What you call "4." is consistent with all of the evidence. The lightning incident was the proximate cause of his reversion to his true form.

And I don't see how Pablo can go around declaring someone else's statements to be metaphorical. That's a little out of control. The statements by Ian were meant literally. Pablo's basically saying, "Ian doesn't know what he's talking about, I know better than Ian." Except he's not allowed to say that, so he goes the rewrite-history route. Well, Ian played the character, Pablo didn't.

 

I never knew that the databank was a work in progress...

oh well..

 

I could have sworn Lucas said Vader did on the ROTJ commentary. That it was only his armor that Luke burned.

What's "all of the evidence?" You're disregarding what Pablo says entirely, and John Knoll says it was simply the "exertion." Yes, you can bend that to fit your mask theory as you can bend it to just about fit any other theory, but I'm sure if he knew it was anything more than simply the exertion (i.e. a mask) he would have said so. That's not something the audience is just going to pick up on (especially since more support the lightning theory) McDiarmid says that it's his true face, but he also says the character is 120, which in a separate interview I believe he says that's the age he was told he was playing in ROTJ. And he says his real age was the "right age" to play Palpatine in the prequels. I don't think he's realized the huge inconsistency there. McDiarmid also says that the face burst forth as the evil fully manifests itself, which could be taken to support what Knoll says too.

 

Dark Lord stated that the face of Sidious "was nothing new" and that the Emperor's physical deformaties "were the result of the Brawl In The Senate", with Yoda.



***




This topic will never die, because we'll never get an official answer.

Just like who or what created Skywalker.

Vader's theme song should have been a parody of AC/DC by Weird Al Yankovic.
"Who Made You?"

 

You can swear it all you want, you must have been hallucinating. The commentary refers to "Luke burning his father's body."
Unless you have a special DVD that the rest of us didn't get???

The point I was trying to make is that Knoll's comments do not actually conflict with the "mask theory". Yes, the evidence can be interpreted in different ways, to support different theories. I'm just trying to say that choice "4." should not be discarded so easily.

 

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to imply it DID say that. I just THOUGHT I remembered it. I don't have any of the DVDs with me at college so I couldn't check.