ST What do you think of the concept of the First Order?

Isn't that exactly what the Clones were?

 

I think the “hostility” towards hardcore fans is more a TLJ thing than a TFA, Rogue One, and Solo thing, and I think it’s less outright hostility and viewing fans as obstaclaes and more just being on a different wavelength than they think they are. Rogue One is definitely a hardcore fan’s film, with all the references, world building, and more scuzzy look, while Solo is an odd conglomeration of some hardcore fan stuff with Lawrence Kasdan’s ideas about how to write Han better, and TFA was if anything trying to hard to be a perfect conventional Star Wars movie for everyone, and definitely embraced hard core fandom’s speculation as a positive thing.

Where I think the TLJ “wavelength” issue comes in is where I think LFL believed that certain ideas and priorities were keys to continuing the series success among both hard core and casual fans, and just being off kilter on those points, particualrly regarding their bad guys. I think they have a conviction that “underdog heroes vs overwhelming villains” = instant success. And I think that in spite of everything else in TLJ, they probably have a pretty “conventional” view of Kylo Ren as a redeemable Skywalker villain.

So while TLJ has a mission statement of zigging where the audience expects them to zag, and trying to pull off a Guardians of the Galaxy/Captain America: Winter Soldier-style “reinvigoration” of the franchise with surprises and twists, on these two points TLJ and LFL were shockingly predictable and banal. And I think the contrast between the rest of the film’s unconventional philosophy and these two painfully conventional aspects aggravated problems hardcore fans saw in TLJ, and that while LFL was locked and loaded for a decent amount of Luke and Rey Random-centered backlash, they were in no way ready for the wide spread of criticisms, or for how some of their decisions seem to create double standards.

I mean, LFL wants a more cerebral, open-minded approach to the Luke story in LFL - it’s supposed to be thought provoking and challenging. But they didn’t really apply that approach to the First Order at all - Hux and his cronies are broad comedic bumblers in a plotline that is really un-interested in how well it holds together on a logical level. Similarly, while the film is trying for some lore work and philosophy on Canto Bight, it never bothers to ponder on the lore of the overall Galactic situation, and how illogical some of its plot points are when viewed by a PT viewer.

The result is TLJ and LFL trying to “evolve” the franchise a bit an avoiding being predictable while relying heavily on some predictable elements, making people wonder why the more boring conventional stuff gets through while more interesting conventional stuff gets mocked.

 

WHAT?!!!

 

STAR WARS
EPISODE VIII - The Last Jedi
The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful Republic...

 

I also think some of the post-TLJ discouragement coming from LFL was the result of LFL generally believing that Johnson was making the right long term calls for the franchise, and just not being ready for how virulently some fans would be in response, nor how prepared they were to argue about the long term strategic value of those choices. When you’ve put your money on stuff like Rey Random, Sad Luke, Symlathetic Kylo, and Ain’t This Repeat Of The Galactic Civil War Grand?, you have to feel like, on average, those are all good ideas that even critics should come around to - or else you wouldn’t put your money on them.

So the snappiness we witnessed was one part an attempt to pull critics towards coming around on those ideas, which they did think a the time would happen (and probabl6 should still feel the way in at leas5 some circles), and one part a bit of shock at the size and scale of the criticism. If you were an LFL employee ready to defend Sad Luke and Rey Random, and not only are you meeting more resistance than you expected, but it’s coming from weird angles where people are criticizing the execution and concept of the First Order that you felt was safe and fool-proof, you’re going to eventually get fed up and start yelling tha people need to let go of their own speculations and ideas for what’s best for the pop culture product you’ve staked time, energy, and reputation on.

The key to a good Superman story is compelling, or at least well thought out, conflict. That’s why the comics and cartoons have had more success when they’ve shifted to villains like Parasite, Brainiac, Livewire, Silver Banshee, and Phantom Zone escapees, or Lex Luthors who juggle being a mad scientist with being a master strategist and corrupt businessman (so he can multi-task). More powerful and effective villains can give powerful heroes much better stories to tell... particularly if the story has to get creative to make the hero’s strengths and villain’s strengths misalign to spark more creative thought processes, creating a feedback loop where creatively written heroes lead to creatively written villains, and so on. Shortcuts on villains lead to shortcuts on heroes.

That’s why, even if you’re a critic of Man of Steel, I defy anyone to tell me that Superman Returns is anything but a pale, puny insect in comparison. (Come at me!)

And that’s why the First Order suffers from bein* written like a bad Silver Age Superman villain and should be written more competently, and why having such an overwhelming logistical advantage doesn’t actually make them more intimidating. It’s the lazy, cheap way to try and make them threatening, and in a franchise where we’ve seen that before, it doesn’t really offer the insurmountable threat it used to.

...The Superman Returns vs Man Of Steel comparison was actually more appropriate than I thought.

The First Order, especially in TLJ, is Lex Luthor hatching another real estate scheme with another conveniently located Kryptonite asteroid as his countermeasure for Superman, with the story using another boring, badly thought out shortcut to get the hero out of this boring conflict (SR has Superman just push a continent of Kryptonite into space even though he was powerless moments before, TLJ makes the First Order morons throughout and pulls out the Hyperspace Ram from nowhere and without thinking about it’s implications.)

And maybe LFL doesn’t think that more seriously played villains with brains *and* brawn, but also somewhat outmatched by the hero at first, is a “sexy” form of antagonism for the story... but it’s still better than playing a cover of someone else’s movie. The First Order in TFA showed *some* potential as a more Zod + Army threat, blending competence and strength with a leanness in resources and greater degree of skill: compare TR8R’s stun baton scene to Faora’s fight against a less-skilled but more-at-home-with-his-powers Superman, or how Shannon’s no-nonsense Zod has a similar reaction time to TFA’s more professional Hux.

It could have gone a lot better with some ambition and imagination.

(And before someone brings up the BvS comparison... BvS Luthor *is* another Hackman Clone, just like how the First Order becomes a pastiche of the Empire... but from Season One of Rebels - before Tarkin, Inquisitor, and Vader show up.)

 

I completely agree. Although I consider Superman Returns to be very like TFA in that it's a partial remake of a superior film, reboot of a beloved profitable franchise, and long awaited sequel to said franchise. Same basic villain, and evil plot to their predecessors. Same troubling take on earlier heroes. (Lois with a family, and Superman abandoning Earth is similar to Han and Leia's separation and Luke in exile)

 

I get that, and I guess my personal counter for why I still love TFA is a) FINN IS FREAKIN’ AWESOME, and b)... ANH is my least favorite OT film.

That’s probably part of the reason I’m so disappointed in TLJ not making good on the premise of Finn being back among the First Order; he’s arguably the viewpoint character best suited to flesh out and differentiate the First Order from the Empire.

 

That's exactly what he is, or should be. As we learn about him we could also be learning about the FO. His arc could be about overcoming their conditioning. It would have given an opportunity to develop both him as a character and them as an antagonist. Instead we get him spinning his tires for two films about will he/won't he join the Resistance (when the entire audience knows he will), and they stay basically one note.