ST What Do You Think Of The Dyad?

Yeah. It’s a rushed and forgettable trope.

 

Well that's an easy one, but I don't know how well it'd go over here, so I'll refrain.

The PT already did this. That's my entire point. Anakin's intervention was wholly inadequate. The Chosen One was always a botched job.

 

And we'd probably agree on that, given I'm an atheist, but for that philosophical conversation to take place re. God allowing bad things to happen, it would have to be predicated on the assumption that 'God', or the force, actually existed.

How so? As far as the OT/PT was concerned, Anakin brought balance when he killed Palpatine.

 

The PT also introduced a)cheating death and b)creating life. In this way, Lucas made the 'destroying the sith' part,as seen in ROTJ, not final. And therefore, the balance achieved in ROTJ was not final either. Lucas said 'the saga is now over' after ROTS; but interviews are not canon, and when it came to writing he never met a retcon he didn't like. You don't get to make others to ignore your own behavior as a writer just because of an interview. Or: you get to do that, it's ok, but only as long you don't sell your own company.

As for the dyad, I'd would not ignore 'the father you never had' idea in TFA. Anakin had no father, and the dyad was 'a power like life itself'. In TROS Rey says: 'he killed my mother and my father'. But the father was killed first, and we don't see the mother being killed. They wouldn't have been Rey blood parents. More like Bail/Breha+baby Leia.

There would have been a 'Shmi' Palpatine. This is Sydney Bristow's mom in JJ's 'Alias':

'I chose to fail' looks like 'Vader betrayed and murdered your father'. He became 'an agent of evil'.

If 'death and decay that feeds new life' is true (Rey's first lesson), then maybe Ben was made to cause Rey through 'Vader' (the helmet for example). The timeline fits: Ben was sent away when he was 11, after his awakening. Too much Vader in him. Death and decay. That same year, Rey was born.

 

Lots of great replies here. I hated the idea and even if one liked it, you gotta admit it felt tacked on, rushed, under developed.... like a lot of the sequel trilogy!

I escpecially agree with the comments regarding Lucas wanting choice to still be a big part of the Force and those whom are force sensitive. This Dyad thing reoves much of that. I think they(film makers) were still in panic mode and just had to do the soap opera thing so we could get Reylo. Their kiss at the end of TROS is still one of the most contrived, meaningless and forced things Ive ever seen in film. Alls it did was allow some "suit" at Disney to check the "get Rey and Ben together" check box.

 

I dig it, it's like the chosen one prophecy. both are messed up and can be explained later like the clone wars fujther did in the mortis arc.

 

I get what you are saying.

I hear what you are saying and I respect it. Although the saga is 9 films, they are also a trilogy of trilogies. In general, I feel that it's more than okay for new ideas, devices, framing to be introduced with each film, trilogy, etc. That's why I have no problem with Leia be retconned to be Luke's sister even if it is the 3rd (or 6th) film in the saga. Say what you want, Skywalker siblings was tacked on.

As I have said, I don't love the Dyad or The Chosen One Prophecy, but I think the Dyad works better as a plot device (contrived as it may be) because we saw it in action (as early as Episode 7), it impacted the narrative, and provided some cool moments. Again, the same cannot be said of the Chosen One Prophecy.

Again, I am sorry if I am not explaining myself well enough. To me, it's less about when a plot device is introduced and more about how it is used, impacts the plot, and plays out.

 

It's a bit like the classic AI problem where you task a super AI with ending poverty and accomplishes that by exterminating humanity. Technically it has achieved its goal of ending poverty, but it happened at the expense of the very thing it was supposed to benefit. Sure, Anakin ended the Sith, but he also cast the galaxy into ruin and despair in the process. Ending the Sith and bringing balance feels a little hollow given the means by which it happened.

 

The thing with the Chosen One prophecy is... at least it had the built-in payoff for the audience. We already knew he fulfilled his role as the Chosen One by the time we learn about it. Even if one doesn't like it, Anakin still did destroy the Emperor and the prophecy served its purpose.

There is no similar payoff with The Dyad. It's almost like the opposite of the Chosen One prophecy as it gave Palpatine power rather than ended his life. But he's dusted in 10 minutes, so again, what purpose does The Dyad serve? Why were they even a Dyad? The Dyad itself doesn't end Palpatine. Rey does, with the help of Jedi past, while Ben is in a pit.

It's only purpose seems to be "we have to connect Rey with Kylo somehow, because the hero and villain need a connection and we're too lazy to build anything, so Dyad it is." Instead of actually building and writing a meaningful connection between Rey and Kylo as characters (be them related or not related), they just throw "Dyad" at them, and that's supposed to be enough.

 

I love the idea of the dyad, but the execution and explanation of it in The Rise of Skywalker was HORRIBLE. It needed to be addressed better, but it was basically treated as a few throwaway lines. Considering how significant Rey and Ben’s connection has been to this trilogy, you would think they would’ve done a better job of delving into the specifics of it, but obviously they didn’t. Like @reyvision explained, unlike the Chosen One prophecy, there’s no buildup to the dyad prophecy reveal that makes it satisfying and/or significant in any way to the audience.

 

I haven't watched TROS in a while, but is the Dyad ever even presented as a Force willed tool for restoring balance? I thought it was just something rare that happened and ended up playing into the plot.

 

It's mentioned twice in the film, first by Kylo telling Rey that they're a dyad, and another by Palpatine realizing they're a dyad, and then draining their power. For how connected it made Kylo and Rey, it really seemed to do nothing for the actual plot. Their being a dyad was a Sith prophecy, according to the visual dictionaries, and something the Sith were after, but that's not even mentioned in the film.

The idea of a dyad is an interesting idea, especially it being a Sith prophecy (the coolest aspect of it, IMO), but the movies and Rey and Kylo's actual connection/relationship did absolutely nothing with it.

 

I know the Dyad is mentioned in the film. But it seems like people in this thread think the Dyad was supposed to be something akin to The Chosen One (a deliberate force intervention) but I don't recall any evidence of that in the movie. I thought the Dyad was just a thing that happened by chance due to a specific set of circumstances.

 

She just said it was from the supporting materials. That's the current "canon" explanation of the Dyad, it's literally the Sith equivalent of the Chosen One prophecy, and apparently Palpatine was trying to force a Dyad with all his apprentices. That's why everyone is comparing the two prophecies.

Part of the issue with all of this is Palpatine's flip-flopping motives in TROS: One minute he wants to kill Rey, the next he wants Rey to kill him, but he still needs to be the unbeatable bad guy when she doesn't do it, so let's just suddenly make him aware of this Dyad that is apparently the strongest power in the history of the universe.

 

I liked it. It's a subtle thing that reveals coherence in the ST, but also tying them all together by 'ret-conning' the Sith rule of two this way ... at least as far as Palpatine and Vader were concerned.

 

The Visual Dictionary says the Dyad is a prophesized pairing. It doesn't say anything about it being a Force intervention like the Chosen One.

 

Okay, well what other reason would there be for this entirely random force-based superpower to exist?

 

But as mentioned earlier, Palpatine would have still taken over the galaxy, eradicated the Jedi and inflicted untold suffering, with or without Anakin. That isn’t a failing of the Chosen One, but is an example of what/who had to be defeated i.e. the Sith Master. That Anakin had to be in a position (unbeknown to him at the time) where cosmic events gave him the opportunity to vanquish Palpatine is key.

 

For what reason does anything exist? Why would a Dyad need any more reason than anything else? Strange and rare things happen without reason all the time.

The opportunity to vanquish Palpatine was presented before any of the other stuff went down. But, even if it hadn't, that still doesn't help the argument from the perspective of the Force and its management of balance. I'm being asked to accept a paradox where the Force is knowing enough and powerful enough to create a super being in anticipation of a moment that will occur 50 years later, but not knowing enough or powerful enough to prevent the destruction of the Jedi or the rise of the Sith in the first place. These two things don't square for me other than by the ways I've given previously.

I fail to see the distinction. There is nothing preventing a prophesized pairing from being a Sith prophecy.

 

How so? Anakin only felt compelled to act against Palpatine when confronted with the imminent death of his son. That's kind of the point. Anakin wasn't an automaton programmed by the force to kill Palpatine on first sight. As mentioned earlier, it sounds like your issue is more with the philosophical debate pertaining to omnipotent gods, free will and self-determination. It shouldn't be an issue with the internal logic of the 'Chosen One', as a concept, as I believe it's fairly sound and reflects themes within belief systems today.

I think you're conflating the in-universe logic and your own personal views on religion. For example, when watching The 10 Commandments, or any biblical story on film, would you automatically believe the internal logic is flawed given that God should't require any need for Jesus to 'spread the word' or for Moses to lead the slaves out of Egypt etc? Surely an omnipotent God could do everything with the click of their fingers? So when discussing such things, one has to accept the notion that even omnipotent Gods have limitations, or reasons for allowing free will etc. etc.

 

The dyad was a consequence of another thing, maybe.

'Life creates [the force], makes it grow'. Life creates the dyad. Then project 'life creates the dyad' into the past.

The dyad was the unexpected consequence of 'life'. Life was expected. In other words, I think Palpatine used Ben to create Rey, through 'Vader'. The helmet, maybe. But he was not aware of the implications. You can see how surprised he is when he notices the dyad in TROS.

He needed a womb, 20 years before that. The son/clone was a failure.

Plagueis could influence the midichlorians to create life and 'he taught his apprentice everything he knew'

How? Through balance. 'Darknes rises, and light to meet it'. You make a little darkness to rise in a certain blood, and then connect it to your own blood, and you obtain a little life.

Ben was sent away after his awakening. Too much Vader in him. He was 11. That same year, Rey was born. The dyad was potentially there, but Rey's awakening had not taken place.
It was a mistake to force skype these two.

That's also behind 'death and decay that feeds new life' during Rey's first lesson.

According to this, Rey's parents were her real parents, as real as Bail and Breha were to Leia, but not her blood parents. Or blood mother. We know Rey felt Han to be the father she never had (not 'knew')

If 'Vader' was needed, well...according to Lucas, Anakin was still the chosen one as Vader. As a sith. The jedi's chosen one being the origin of the sith's prophesized dyad. The sith's prophesized dyad bringing back balance and causing the jedi to survive.

For Palpatine, the dyad was a 'power'. But that power depended on symbiosis, and Palpatine only cared about Palpatine. Kylo was closer to the truth, because he was at least willing to share that power. Dyad>dyarchy, ruling together. The Rule (=act of ruling) of Two.

The dyad as a consequence is, retrospectively,a part of the OT. You project Leia hearing Luke in Bespin 23 years back into the past and you obtain twins. A womb.

This time, one bloodline was used to create another member of a different bloodline, and a new kind of bond between the bloodlines was created as a result.

In TROS, Palpatine changes his plans when he discovers the dyad. He drains Ben and Rey and becomes superpowerful but also weak in another sense. 'Your overconfidence is your weakness'. He attacked Rey directly, and that's what those jedi voices knew he would do. 'We stand behind you', says Qui-Gon.

 

Anakin protected Palpatine from Mace Windu. Anakin was in a position to see to Palpatine's end and instead chose to stand by his side, destroy the Jedi, and reign terror onto the galaxy. No matter what happens beyond his reign of terror, The Force's management of this situation must absolutely be considered a failure. Free will and self-determination change nothing about that fact. They merely provide context for the failure. The Force exerted its will to bring Anakin into the world. Whatever the issues were with balance, Anakin's lifetime of work made it worse. This is to say, the Force is bad at solving the problem of balance. Which is all I've been saying from the beginning. And why the revelation that Palpatine still wasn't dead in TROS shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that had already made note of how incompetent The Force was.

 

I voted that I liked the idea, but I suppose I'm really more neutral. I enjoyed the idea, but I could've also done without it. I thought it was a sufficient way of explaining their connection with each other. I also like the idea that it's something that's known among Force users in Sith (and/or Jedi) lore-but hasn't been seen in many generations. This was one of the things I enjoyed about TROS; the fact that we learned more about things the Sith do (when not trying to manipulate and bring down the galactic government) and also Jedi lore, with different powers and concepts that had presumably been lost over the centuries.