What exactly did Obi-Wan and Yoda expect from Luke?

I always felt that Yoda and Obi-Wan expected Luke to cause a fatal confrontation between Vader and the emperor or believed in the strong possibility of this fatal confrontation; however, they did not think it was necessary for Vader to turn from the dark side for this to happen. They believed in the competitive nature of the Sith. That is one reason they did not want Luke to be emotionally attached to Dad. That is why Anakin/Vader turn at the end of Return of the Jedi is a peasant surprise at the end for both Yoda and Obi-Wan.

 

Whether Lucas is a good writer or not does not matter explaining what we see on-screen.
Luke defeats Vader in a highly questionable fashion. What happened to Vader's ferocity?

Those who say that Luke had surpassed Yoda by ROTJ: That is only because Yoda is dead by then. Look at Yoda in ROTS. He is far superior to Luke. OBW is also by far better than Luke is. GL even confirms this - that only in the PT do we see "real" Jedi fight. Things had gone downhill in the OT. Vader was not as strong as he used to be, Yoda was dying, and OBW is rather obscure.

Did Yoda and OBW know that Vader was getting weaker? I don't think so. "strong he is" comes out, not "you'll kick that machine's ass - he's getting weaker." Luke was not even close to Yoda in strength, and even farther than both Yoda and OBW. Then again, would Yoda or/and OBW even come remotely close to the Emperor?

 

that is your oppinion and you are entitled to it.

i stand by this statement:

Luke at the time of RotJ is superior to Yoda at any point we see him on film and Obi-Wan at any point we see him on film.

Keep in mind we never saw yoda at his peak and we never saw him win a single duel, in the PT he went 0-1-1, he lost to sidious and fought dooku to a draw.

Luke's record is also better than yoda's i'd take 1-1 over 0-1-1 any day, and that is strictly going by what we see on film.

 

How can you, from what we see on-screen, say that Luke displays greater powers than Yoda? Yoda could stop force lightning - didn't seem that Luke could. Yoda could elevate large objects - throw senate pods upwards.
Luke's record was different than Yoda's record due to the different opponents. OBW beat Vader when Vader was, from what we see on-screen, stronger than in the OT.
As I said - Lucas even confirms that the PT Jedi were stronger (although I'm not to fond of him spelling out everything for us, we must believe him when he says it)
That's what leads me to believe that Yoda and OBW not only wanted Luke to fight - but perhaps they saw him as the only one who could get close to the Emperor?

 

For a few reasons i think that, for one yoda's fights were shorter than Luke's, I would argue that while Yoda of the PT was more powerful in bursts, luke's relatively younger age allowed for greater stamina.

I do not believe Yoda or Obi-Wan of the PT could beat Vader circa ESB or RotJ. Maybe if they attacked his life support, but i digress there.

I don't see the world through Yoda colored glasses, i see his limitations and failures, and love the character because he learned from them.

Nearly everyone agrees that Luke has the same potential that Anakin had, a potential he was realizing at the time of RotS that is why I see it the way i do.

It is also why i have no doubt at all that they sent luke to kill vader and the emporer and believed he was capable of it.

lucas' quotes are useless, if i dig i could probably find one where he says the jedi of the old republic were weaker, the man is beyond inconsistant he's senile or a liar.

consider it this way, yoda is the oldest and wisest of the jedi, no doubt the most polished with the possible exception of mace in combat and he lost to the emporer.

Luke's training can be sumarized this way, he had a cup of coffee with two different jedi masters and they sent him to fight both vader and the emporer at once.

In order to have any chance at all yoda and kenobi had to believe that luke was the most powerful and gifted jedi ever, and i don't believe the argument they were counting on him "saving anakin" there's nothing in the films to indicate that.

I personally believe it's better to just go by what's on film, lucas confuses all issues with his constant revisions. It's the old saying redone, "am i going to believe what my lying eyes are telling me, or what lucas says" i'll go with my eyes every time.

 

If Luke had the same potential as Anakin, why would Luke become more powerful than what Anakin managed?
Anakin had many more years of training in the PT. He never managed to become stronger than Yoda - he even lost to OBW.
Luke lacked severly in training, and hence I can't see why he should become nearly as strong as Anakin - who also had a lust for power!
So, by common sense, and what we see on-screen, I doubt if they ever thought Luke to be THAT powerful! That may have been Lucas' original intention. However, now that we have the PT, it just doesn't fit - and therefore I'm looking for an alternative answer!

 

At the time of ESB (before we learned about Leia being Luke's sister) I always thought "the other hope" was turning Vader back to the light side. That would've been a good reason for sending Luke to confront Vader, because he was the only person in the GFFA that had a strong emotional connection to the Dark Lord - which would be more powerful than even the force (and RotJ proofed that it was and the PT showed us that emotinonal attachments were as important as dangerous for Anakin). For that reason it really doesn't matter how strong Luke really was with the force and how much he learned about lasersword fighting. And - please correct me if I'm wrong - in the OT Ben and Yoda say that the force is strong in Luke, but they never compare it directly with words like "he is as strong/stronger as Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda". They just say that it is strong in Luke (and only if the force is strong, it is possible to use it - remember: the force is in all living beeings but not everybody in the GFFA is able to use and controll the force - even the ones the force is strong in can do so).

 

It was important that Luke had strong force potential, because this leads to a conflict between Vader and the emperor over Luke. Obi-Wan and Yoda understood that Luke did not have to be strong enough to kill the emperor. As long as Luke did not turn to the dark side and was competitive with his father, it would be enough to start the Vader and emperor conflict. Obi-Wan and Yoda could have been counting on both the Vader/Anakin possessive nature for family members and his competitive nature as a Sith.

 

I agree with this. Furthermore, Yoda tells Luke that he must confront Vader, only then will he become a Jedi. Nowhere does he say "kill Vader, you must". Confronting Vader is the final cave-lesson. He must confront his fears. Somehow, Luke didn't fear the Emperor - he feared Vader. If he could control that, not give into his anger and thus killing Vader - only then would he become a Jedi. I think that is central. Remember Luke's training. It didn't consist of how to kill. Rather it consisted of Jedi not using the force for attack. When Luke had defeated Vader, in defense of himself and his sister, he laid down his weapon. Was this something OBW and Yoda hoped for, saying "your weapons, you do not need them"?

 

I think the answer to this question lies at the end of Yoda's duel with Sidious in ROTS. Yoda abandons the battle and casts a significant glance at his Jedi robe hanging from debris. Then when he his rescued by Bail Organa he states "Failed, I have." Now, this is important. I don't believe he was refering to the fight as much as to the Jedi's philosophy of how to fight the Sith. Fighting is not the answer. Yoda realizes at this point that the way defeat the Sith is to give in to the will of The Force. For quite some time the Jedi have grown headstrong in that they are sure the know the solution to everything. Yoda himself says as much in AOTC when he talks about the arrogance of even the wisest of Jedi.

Fast forwarding to the OT, I believe that while they know their hope lies in Luke and Leia, Ben and Yoda have no idea how it will actually happen. I also believe that they still believe in the prophecy, just not in Anakin any longer (thus how the prophecy was "misread"). Therefore they know that for Luke to be the chosen one he must destroy Vader, or at least eliminate him so that he may have access to the Emperor. Did they expect him to take on the Emperor right away? I doubt it. They probably figured he would kill Vader and then train Leia and rebirth the Jedi order before that happened, but they did NOT focus on making this happen. They simply let the will of The Force take over. They did thier part by training Luke when the opportunity arose and Luke did his part by finally throwing down his sabre and giving in to the will of The Force.

 

I think that Luke definitely had the potential to be stronger than both Vader and the Emperor. The Sith certainly seem to agree. The Emperor tells Vader that Luke would be a great threat to them if he became a Jedi. Vader tells Luke that the Emperor has forseen that Luke could destroy him.

If Luke wasn't more powerful than Vader, then why did the Emperor want to replace Vader with Luke?

If Luke wasn't more powerful than the Emperor, than why did Vader think that he could defeat the Emperor with Luke's help?

I've always believed that Luke was sent to kill the Emperor, and his father. To me, this makes the story much more enjoyable. I like the idea of the hero succeding in a way that noone else thought was possible. If it was all Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan, than it makes these two relatively minor characters in the OT into the heroes, instead of the main character, Luke.

 

i do not think you will find an alternate answer.

The PT is a rewrite, not the original story as it was filmed at the time of RotJ.

That said I would also submit to you that it is quite likely that luke's very different and admittedly shorter training was probably far more affective than Anakin's training. It is not outside the realm of possible that luke at the time of RotJ is more powerful than Anakin ever became before he turned, there is definately a reason luke wasn't trained from birth and that is to not make the same mistakes again.

it comes down to this, you see Luke as weak and inferior, by extension you see Yoda and Ben as much stronger so the reason Luke was sent to the emporer and vader will not make sense to you, but it remains true:

Luke was sent to kill Vader and the Emporer.

 

luke is stronger because he was able to reconcile himself to the force. ex. look at the scenes with luke and the emperor. emporer says his friends is luke's weakness and it certainly can be seen that way. but that same weakness is why luke is able to defeat the emperor and dark side. he was a rounded person more so than any other jedi. the living force rewarded him accordingly.

 

there is definately a reason luke wasn't trained from birth and that is to not make the same mistakes again.

But Anakin wasn't trained from birth, either. That was arguably part of the problem.

 

Anakin was trained in the same fasion as a child trained from birth even though he started much later.

I am a firm believer that the jedi of the PT are part of the problem and their ways are out dated, unchanged and must end.

There is a drastic and real change in Yoda from the PT to the OT, the yoda of the PT would not have said the things that yoda of ESB said.

This is subtle but very well done by lucas because he introduced a character who followed the philosophy yoda has later and then lucas has Qui-Gon's philosophy evolve over 3 films in other characters, specifically yoda and later Obi-Wan.

Qui-Gon starts out focusing on the will of the Living Force, where Yoda starts out following and obeying a perceived seperate part of the force often called the Cosmic Force, though i'm not sure if that's the real name.

In Yoda's original philosophy a great deal of weight is given to dogma and ridgid tradition, things that did not work for training Anakin, this is well exemplified in their scene together in RotS when anakin is asking yoda for advice.

Rather than train Luke from birth and continue to follow this philosophy yoda changes completely into a near copy of Qui-Gon and his trainings over the course of time before ESB.

Yoda and kenobi choose to wait and train luke when he's older and more well balanced because i think they realized that being trained from birth was not nearly as important as molding the training to fit the student, something they did not do with anakin.

Like teachers in real life, if the student isn't learning the problem is not usually with the student, but instead the problem usually lies with the teacher and the way they are presenting the material.

One thing my former english teaching wife says often to me, "if the student isn't 'getting it', then i need to change the way i'm teaching them".

This is what Yoda and Obi-Wan did with Luke, they realized that the flaw in Anakin's training was not in Anakin, but in the training and it not suiting him.

I do agree to some extent that had Anakin been trained from birth he'd have turned out better, that's probably true, but it is also true he would have turned out differently if his training had been molded to suit him and been less ridgid.

This is the mistake they choose not to make with Luke.

Combine this enlightened training style with Luke's obviously very high force potential and his uncanny aliance with the force, it's litterally with him every moment of the OT, and i don't have a doubt in my mind that both Yoda and Obi-Wan believed Luke could and would kill both Vader and Sidious.

 

what if the student doesnt want to get it?

anakin spent much of his training thinking he already had it and his teachers could not teach him anything else. how many ways do you show anakin?

i just think the two old farts adapted the best they could and the irony is by not adapting when they should have the order falls.

 

Aaaaaah, I've been pondering this for a bit. I agree that the old Jedi Order of the prequels were part of the problem and I think that Yoda and Obi-Wan had accepted that it was gone and something new would confront Sidius.

In general, this is how I think Yoda and Obi-Wan's plan for Luke went:

End of ROTS: they test the babies and Leia has a high enough midichlorine count for a Jedi like Obi-Wan, but Luke's count is sky high like Anakin's. So, Luke if first choice for balancing the Force. Anakin had been trained from childhood to be a Jedi and they saw how well that went. That's why Luke and Leia were not trained. Basically, Yoda did not think Anakin should have been trrained and he lost the argument; he wins the same argument with Luke (I wonder if Qui-Gon had some input on that decision, too?)

ANH: Events come to Luke. That's what Obi-Wan has been waiting for. He offers to teach Luke and he at first refuses, but after the farm is destroyed he comes and asks Obi-Wan to train him as a Jedi. That's what Obi-Wan has been waiting for. Obi-Wan gives Luke the basics before confronting Vader, but he has an ace that the Sith can't match; he joins the Force and still lingers.

TESB: Luke gets some intensive training from Yoda. I assume that all the Jedi basics can be learned in a short time, but it can take years of practice to get them right. Luke, however, with his insanely high midichlorine count--and a measure of maturity that his father never mastered--is able to pick things up very quickly.

Obi-Wan and Yoda, IMO, have a very simple plan:

-- train Luke until he's ready for his 'trials'; the tree on Dagobah was Luke's first sample of that.
-- his father's identity is intended to be Luke's 'trails'; if he can take that, he should be able to defeat them.
-- once Luke is trained he will confront and defeat Vader and the Emperor the old-fashioned way, like Obi-Wan did with Maul.

Luke, of course, loused the whole scheme up when he went to Bespin. I'm sure that Obi-Wan and Yoda (and Qui-Gon in the background somewhere?) were terrified that he would just become Sidius's next apprentice. I'm sure they were fantastically relieved when Luke refused Vader and escaped.

ROTJ: Yoda and Obi-Wan have more or less accepted that Luke will not be strong enough to defeat the Sith and the Force will be balanced in some other way. They really didn't think Luke could do it. Yoda hung on long enough to give Luke his last words--and tell him what his trials were, that he must confront Vader before he would be a Jedi. IMO, Luke had passed his trials on Bespin; he though he was faking being a Jedi at the beginning of ROTJ, but he wasn't after all.

Obi-Wan answers Luke's questions, but he's really despondent about defeating the Sith. He really believes that Vader and Sidius must be destroyed and that's the only way to get rid of Sith. When Luke says that he can't kill his father, Obi-Wan thinks it's hopeless. Obi-Wan and Yoda must have throught they had failed. Again. And that the Force would be balanced someday, without them.

I don't know where Luke got the idea he could turn Vader back to the light--he certainly didn't get it from Obi-Wan and Yoda. Maybe it was some Force memory he inherited from his mother? Anyway, Luke defeated the Sith.

Palpatine had set things up so beautifully; if you were strong enough to defeat the Sith, you were vulnerable to becoming one of them them. Obi-Wan never got it because he managed to kill Maul without going over to the dark side. But to defeat Sidius, you would need so much power that you would inevitably fall to darkness yourself.

Luke found his way out of that trap by getting a Sith to turn back to the Jedi. Pretty smart kid.