What happened to Zevulon and Maximilian Veers?

What? What are you babbling about.

Pardon you??

It's tragic because of who he used to be. One of the greatest Generals ever. A general that even Vader respected. An honorable man who was serving a cause he believed in. He didn't serve to gain power but to protect the Empire and its citizens.

Your point is? You're so busy buying that lame interpretation that you didn't even consider the points I carefully tried to illustrate. But don't bother, because you don't seem to read things very well as it is.

We all know he really was a hero, that's not in dispute and that just means you've stated the obvious. What the real tragedy is here is that the Empire is CONSTANTLY slammed in SW, and in THAT light, his bio seems acerbic and trite.

Get it now?!

Even after he was crippled, he served the Empire to the best of his abilities.

Crippled? Isn't that a completely new interpretation, originating in the new Guide? I won't apologize here, that bio was neither flattering nor tragic, as it made him out as a pathetic loser who was always on the wrong side and ended a failure. That's different from "tragic."

The tragic part? That he was betrayed by the very Empire he served.

That's not in contention, either. Did you at all read my earlier post??

Or more precisely,a pretentious little prick of an Emperor's toady that wasn't fit to lick the General's boots. It's tragic that such a great soldier wasreduced to the such a shell of a man. Even so, Veers still go the last laugh. He embrassed Sedriss by planning a shabby assault on Balmorra's capital. A battle in which he went out like warrior would want to.

OK, now I know you didn't read my earlier post. Go back and do that before you try to pounce on me.

Rolls eyes.

It isn't wise to insult people and tell them they "are babbling" when you didn't read their earlier posts and conveniently ignore what obviously went over your head on the first read.

Thanks, and good night!

 

No, I did indeed read your post. It had nothing that I haven't heard a thousand times.

The Empire is not always slammed. The NR has been slammed just as much(or maybe you haven't been keeping up with the going ons of the NJO)

The "good" and "stable" parts of the Empire were pretty much nullified by their extreme and sometimes violent policies.

I never saw anything in his entry that suggested he was serving the wrong side. Through Veers' life we see the Empire at its zenith and its fall. Nice touch

You should be the one lecturing me on manners,Ms. "Get a clue!"

 

You know inari, your quotes, "I'm not that gullible.", and "get a clue, folks!" in your first post are quotes that people can take as being flammatory.

One implies people other than you are gullible, the other implies you saying they are clueless. Either way it's not your right to tell people what you think of them directly or indirectly. It's not nice at all.

The parts you took from trias posts as flames at you, look to me, as him being defensive because of the underhanded insults that you put towards him, or anyone else that just happened to enjoy the story.

I'm not one for Imperialists vs. rebalists ideologues, and I just happen to read the stories cause I enjoy them as the fiction they are. To me they are just stories, and I don't care what way the real life earth authors wrote the story (meaning they are neither imperials or rebels in a galaxy far far away, but just earth citizens writing fiction), as long as I enjoy it. If there is something I don't like, I'll mention what I didn't like based on what I think of that real world author's way of writing.

I myself don't like it when people feel they have to go out of their way to bash someone else's belief and directly insult their mental capacity just because they enjoyed a story a different way than they might like or dislike something. To complain about being insulted when one makes insults themselves is tad bit hypocritical, and then go out and insult some more, well then who are they to have the right to complain. Either way insults aren't right, and they shouldn't have been made in the first place.

 

>When Luke pulls Vader on to the laning ramp of the shuttle you see Moff Jerjerod in the >backround boarding a shuttle.

How can you tell that's him? I thought Moff Jerjerrod died on the bridge of the Death Star II, trying to destroy the Sanctuary Moon?

>What the real tragedy is here is that the Empire is CONSTANTLY slammed in SW, and in THAT >light, his bio seems acerbic and trite.

LOL. The Imperials are the *bad guys*. It's been that way since ANH. The reason the Empire is "slammed" in SW and the EU is because it exists to *be* "slammed". In a heroes and villains saga, there have to be bad guys, and in SW, that's the Empire. A benevolent and stable government doesn't need a Death Star, much less two more and their various successors.

TC

 

Gentlemen, I didn't start the inflammatory remarks, and I don't appreciate being told I am "babbling" when I'm not. My post was being reiterated and then I was accused of babbling?

I don't think so. Don't accuse me of inappropriate behavior, I defended myself and didn't single anyone out. Now I have because you seem to feel that I've insulted you somehow. Incredible.

 

Inari wrote:

Has no one but a handful of us failed to notice how nearly all Imperial characters have bios that make them appear overly (choose all that apply): tyrannical, cowardly, harsh, selfish, stupid, incompetent, arrogant, foolish, bumbling, conniving, cheating, aggressive, caustic, abrasive, blah blah blah, you get the point?

Well, they are the bad guys...

And I disagree that things are painted that didactically in the NEGC. Piett's bio is very flattering. Pellaeon's bio attempts to get into moral shades of gray. Tarkin's bio expresses the varying opinions held by different ideological groups regarding the Grand Moff, and postulates that he could have easily been 'Emperor Tarkin' had he followed his ambitions (and flexed the Death Star's muscle) through to the end.

I think Veers' story is tragic. He's a model officer (a "soldier's soldier," I think I put it) whose skill is undeniable, as evidenced by the successful Battle of Hoth. The indignities he suffered post-Endor were not the result of any underperformance as an officer. They were the inevitable outgrowth of a post-Endor Empire in which old loyalties didn't matter so much anymore, and where young Force-users with little military experience were given the authority to command old-school "soldier's soldiers." As Val points out, most of the story threads regarding Veers' career were already out there; I just wove them together in a chronological narrative.

Don't think I'm not a big Veers fan! Anyone who tells Darth Vader "You may start your landing" before the shield is even down has got some serious guts.

(BTW, someone said Sedriss was only 15. I believe I wrote in the NEGC that he was "not even thirty" [i.e. 29] as of Dark Empire II.)

Dan

 

"I didn't start the inflammatory remarks"

and I point back to your quotes;

"I'm not that gullible.", and "get a clue, folks!" from the post before trias said you were babbling. The kind of posts that made him get defensive.

"didn't single anyone out."

You didn't have to single anyone out to flame a wide variety of people that disagree with you. one of your quotes bashed trias's personal oppinion, that he wasn't try to force on you, and you said your not that gullible to take his view. Which implies he is gullible, and others that agree with him are gullible(which now that we have dan wallace the author posting would imply that he was gullible as well... , for believing he is a tragic character). Secondly you told folks to get a clue, which implies that you are saying they are clueless if they don't agree with you. 3rdly I'll point out as Dan Wallace himself has entered the thread, that you directly posted against him as an author,

"It's clear to me that someone just went through, without a feel for this character as he is presented in ESB or even the Dark Empire series, and just haphazardly slapped on an ending."

, which of course is a directly singles out an author, and what you think of the author's abilities, and your uninformed oppinion that he doesn't know the character. Since he is a board member and can read your comments he is going to get defensive, and going to defend himself with posts.

Next the authors(any author of any star wars book and non-star wars books) are human beings living on earth, as human beings they diserve the same respect that you yourself feel that you diserve, golden rule and all that. If one thinks that they can hide behind anonimity and proceed to bash or verbally attack an author directly is rather cowardly, Imho.

Any way you were the one that first posted those quotes above, and while you may have not meant anything by them, people including the author himself did notice them, and those quotes were offending to them, and made them defensive.

Either way, you did start it, and it did make people defensive. Maybe you didn't mean anything by what you said, but maybe next time you may want to choose your words a bit more carefully, and not say anything that singles out a single person, or groups of people. That way no one will have anything to get defensive towards you about, and you won't have people giving tit for tat(like trias saying you were babbling for your comments I quoted above).

Either way yes it was wrong for trias to say you were babbling, but it was also wrong for you to make any of the comments I quoted above before that as well.

 

Sigh

Val, Inari, can we please get back to discussing about General Veers and not who flammed who first or who's intent was what when they said this and that. Please? Pretty please?


Mr. Wallace- I do like some of General Veers bio such as Zevulon defecting to the Rebellion, Veers getting hurt at Hoth (but not the injury itself), the idea that he gets demoted and the Warlords dispising him because of his ties to Lord Vader. Those I can understand possibly happening to the General. But he refusing prosynthetics because of his cultural beliefs against cyborgs? In the movie and the novelization it implies that he appears to be the type of a man who would sacrifice things for the cause he believed in and what was best for the military, including his own beliefs about cyborgs. Obviously he has done that somewhat if he serves a cyborg to begin with. (This may imply that he should be written as fanatical, that isn't my intent)

Now I'm not saying that you wrote this as you have stated before you didn't, just compiling it together. Could you tell me who did and where it was written? (Anyone else can answer that too.) Because I'd like to try and find it and read it someday and hopefully understand WHY the author crippled the good General in such a way.

Btw, what happened to Zevulon Veers? We know from General Veers bio he defected to the Rebellion and was last seen at Balmorra, but after his defection and before Balmorra what happened?

Also, I was discussing this bio with Inari on AIM and I had suggested that what would make Veers life more tragic is if he had to confront his son on the battlefield and the conflicting emotions of that confrontation. I mean, its gotta be difficult for a Father to have to kill his own child? Right?


Shameless plug to everyone...go read me General Veers fic located in me sig! Please.

 

A majority of the galaxy looking down upon or fearing cyborgs appeared in the marvel series. Issue #7 and the valance the hunter issues as I recall, it may be an indirect refrence to that belief from those sources(and any other sources that refrenced that belief). Part of the belief included believing that one loses their own soul if they are made a cyborg something that was extremely feared.

 

Yeah, the cyborg bais thing is fairly well documented. Anyway, were his injuries really *that* serious? I don't own the NEGTC, but I have read the bio, and it didn't seem as bad as some have made it out to be.

TC

 

Here's a general note about General Veers,

General Veers was not Rommel. He did not in any case try to assaisinate Lord Vader or the Emperor. He unquestionably followed his orders and fought against the Rebellion and crushed it even when his own son raised under the Empire came to the conclusion that it was evil.

When the Empire ceased to be even a APPEARENCE of a legitamate government and became the feuding state of warlords in the cosmos he continued to serve it.

Veers wanted power and he put down at least one rebellion (Star Wars original movie sourcebook) on a world of native savages by 'stomping' with his walker just to show the power of the Empire. He demoted a promising officer just becasue his 'dangerous' ideas about Walkers weakness threatened Veer's rising star.

He was a walker commander and a noted flaw would get his commision as a premier soldier taken away.

That's how the Empire worked. Predatory men survived while weaker men floundered.

I'm tired of this painting as the Empire in shades of Grey. If Colin Powel shot his Colonels in the head every time they screwed up in battle then rightfully so a person should desert his army unit or overthrow the man!

As for the cybernetics replacements I want to point out that in Star Wars cyborgs are treated as second class citizens. Technically until the New Republic Lobot was considered "property of Cloud City", like a computer attachment as opposed to a human being.

Furthermore it's not as if Veers expected to be any less of a commanding officer. Maximilliam was one of the finest commanders in the Empire. Sure he'd have to move around in a hover chair or on a repulsor belt but everytime he made love to his wife it wouldn't be....half machine.

The Empire thrived on propaganda and you had to wonder what Veers thought of Vader whenever he encountered him.

In a walker furthermore you don't need legs really, just a holograph unit and a elevated seat with voice command.

"Periscope down!"

Another general note about Maximillian Veers that I think people should also note is that the Battle of Hoth could have been won by me.

And I have no military experience whatsoever.

You see, here's how the battle went.

"I have 180 or so Walkers and the Rebels have ground troops that can't hurt us.....very well I think this should over shortly."

Grand Admiral Thrawn was tested against superior odds, like Grand Moff Tarkin General Veers had the option of using the largest hammer possible every time that he fought until operation Shadowhand.

Finally I want to say something about Sedriss being 15. This is ridiculous as the Dark Side handbook puts Sedriss as much older and a mercanary for several years.

In case of contradictory information I'll just assume it's fifteen years on his homeworld which puts him in his thirties.



Finally regarding Zevulon Veers, traitor my ass. He chose to side with Princess Leia Organa who along with Mon Mothma, her father, and Bel Iblis were the only noncorrupt officials left in the galaxy. The Republic has always been the legitamate government and it was MAXIMILIAN and the rest of the men who betrayed the ideals of the Republic who were traitors.

If the Nazis took over the United States of America during WW2 by rigging an Election and then military cracking down then I would gladly spit on anyone born during their reign who served the Reich. I would say America was the legitamate government and that the Nazis were not.

This is not unreasonable

 

Sure he'd have to move around in a hover chair or on a repulsor belt but everytime he made love to his wife it wouldn't be....half machine.

I'd like to point out that Veers wife was long dead before Hoth. Other than that, I have no comments.

 

I thought I read somewhere that Zev Veers served as a gunner on some New Republic ship. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Okay Veer's Twielik slave girls, okay

 

Upped because the topic came up recently, and also because this thread turned into an interesting flame-war of the titans toward the end.

Mmmmm...drama!

Up you go!

 

Do we know he was cloned by Thrawn. Bluey was indeed using his best pilots and soldier templates for the new clones, but unless it specifically says somewhere . . .

I don't like the fact he survives after Hoth. A Snowspeeder did hurtle into his assault walker. You die. To have him still survive seems a bit . . . well, corney.

 

What about Hobbie surviving? I should think that would be even more "corny".

Also, they only allowed Veers to survive so that they could inject some deja-vu into Dark Empire II. Besides, they killed him there anyway. No harm done.

 

I've got no problem with Hobbie resurrecting. Janson needs a partner in crime for puns. Or Tycho flying into the Executor's bridge!

Yeah, I know, I know. That was actually Crynyd, and Stackpole says Tycho was the second pilot in the A-wing. But I'm confused, because wasn't he the one with the same face and voice that lost control?

Sorry! This is something as a good EU disciple I should already know!

 

>I don't like the fact he survives after Hoth. A Snowspeeder did hurtle into his assault walker. You die. To have him still survive seems a bit . . . well, corney.<

Well, that scene didn't make it into the movie, so some authors weren't aware of it, so he appeared in a few post-TESB sources, so they had to make him survive.

TC

 

TC, now I'm doubting myself. I could've sworn I saw a snowspeeder take out Veer's walker late in the Hoth battle. I've got this picture of a yelling Hobbie with his mouth shouting open . . . and then crash!

Zevulon is an interesting name. That's one of the sons of Jacob's, a name of the 12 tribes. Hambly in POT had some names that sounded old Roman/Greek. Good to have a broad range of types. Too many have a Y in front of them in SW!

 

"Zevulon is an interesting name. That's one of the sons of Jacob's, a name of the 12 tribes. Hambly in POT had some names that sounded old Roman/Greek. Good to have a broad range of types. Too many have a Y in front of them in SW!"

Actually that would be "zebulun" in the bible.

 

Well, well, well. Talon Karrde and Valiento. You two were prominent in the clash of the titans that went on in this thread back when it was started. All we need is Inari Icewalker and that battle could begin again...

 

Actually, Val, as Zebulon is the English for the Hebrew Zevulon, I wasn't incorrect.

Ahhhh . . . victory!

Curious, as the conventional way for coded words is to use Greek language, for example. Like alpha, or the Beta Project. Michael McDowell used Hebrew whenever General A'hbat spoke an authorisation code.

 

>TC, now I'm doubting myself. I could've sworn I saw a snowspeeder take out Veer's walker late in the Hoth battle. I've got this picture of a yelling Hobbie with his mouth shouting open . . . and then crash! <

'Friad not. The scene appears in the novelization, but Hobbie takes out Veer's walker *before* he destroys the power generators, IIRC. (No clue on how the Imperials were supposed to get past the shield in this case.) I *think* the radio drama has a similar scene.

The official site explains:

"In the original script of The Empire Strikes Back, Veers perished when his walker was rammed by a snowspeeder. The scene never made it into the final film, and as such, Veers' life was spared. He appeared in early draft scripts of Return of the Jedi, though his character does not return in that film. Producer Robert Watts, who had a cameo appearance as an AT-ST pilot in Jedi, has once said that his character was actually General Veers, but it seems doubtful that Veers would have such a demotion to a simple pilot. His son, Zevulon, appears in the Dark Empire comics series.

Actor Julian Glover, who played Veers in The Empire Strikes Back, also played villain Walter Donovan in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. "

TC

 

"'Friad not. The scene appears in the novelization, but Hobbie takes out Veer's walker *before* he destroys the power generators, IIRC. (No clue on how the Imperials were supposed to get past the shield in this case.)"

The shield does get destroyed in novel as Han Solo points it out, IIRC.

Just the order of when the scenes take place is in dispute.

The only explaination is that veers walker was hit just seconds after he hit the shield.


"I *think* the radio drama has a similar scene."

As far as I aware from the last time I listened to it, the scene isn't in the radio drama. It's not much different than the movie itself, IIRC.