What is Dooku trying to accomplish?

At the end of Clones, we hear a brief conversation between Palpentine and Dooku, referring to the "boy" (surely Anakin). Presumably, Dooku knows that Anakin is prepped to turn in the very near future. Flash forward to Episode III. When the duel comes down to Anakin vs. Dooku, Dooku must know that he can't defeat Anakin. Therefore, he'll either be wounded a la Vader, captured and brought to trial, or killed. It doesn't seem as if he has anything to win by fighting Anakin.

 

Uhh when do they talk about a boy?

COUNT DOOKU: The Force is with us, Master Sidious.

DARTH SIDIOUS: Welcome home, Lord Tyranus. You have done
well.

COUNT DOOKU: I bring you good news, my Lord. The war has
begun.

DARTH SIDIOUS: Excellent. (smiling) Everything is going as
planned.

 

COUNT DOOKU: The Force is with us, Master Sidious.

DARTH SIDIOUS: Welcome home, Lord Tyranus. You have done
well.

COUNT DOOKU: Thank you, but boy was that a close fight

DARTH SIDIOUS: Excellent. (smiling) Everything is going as
planned.

 

No I get what you mean. The first time I saw AOTC at the theatre I also thought he said "the boy has begun," but when I watched it again he really says "the war has begun."

 

Dooku didn't know that Palpatine was wanting to turn Anakin until late in the Clone Wars. His goals were simple, help start the Clone Wars so that the Jedi could violate their code of ethics, while Palpatine gains all kinds of political power. It wasn't until the discussion of the endgame of the Clone Wars, that Palpatine told Dooku that Anakin was going to be joining them as a member of the Sith. What Dooku didn't know was that he was going to be the sacrifical lamb.

 

At the end of AotC, nothing was mentioned about Anakin. It's up in the air if Palpatine at that time had told Dooku about his desire to recruit Anakin to their side. By the duel on the Invisble Hand though, Dooku understands that Palpatine desires Anakin as a Sith. Palpatine fooled Dooku by telling him that the Rule of Two would be abandoned and an Empire of man would be created. Anakin would lead a new Sith Army and Dooku and Palpatine would run the Empire. The RotS novel further says that previous to the duel, Sidious orders Dooku to try and kill Anakin. Lucas's comment is that they are testing Anakin. If Dooku defeats him again, he would be allowed to escape and Palpatine and Dooku again wait until he is ready.

 

I still think that it would have been nice to have seen and heard in ROTS was that Dooku was considering overthrowing his master. The prime opportunity to have slipped this in was in the beginning of the film when supposedly Palpatine was captured by Dooku and Grievous. It would have been nice to have had Dooku think that Palpatine made a huge mistake with this plan to try and turn Anakin and allow himself to be captured and this was his opportunity to kill him and become the new master and make Anakin his apprentice.

But unaware of the relationship that Anakin had with Palpatine, Dooku overplays his hand in helping to try and turn Anakin and it causes the young Jedi to defeat him and then Palpatine give the order to Anakin to kill him.

Darth Sin!

 

The prime flaw in Darth Tyrannus is exactly why I think he was a great character and an awesome villain: There was too much of the Light in him. Despite the depravity of his methods and the ruthless conviction he portrays, unlike Palpatine his goal still seems to be based on a philosophical ideal instead of simple, raw power. Dooku's goal seems to have been a "perfect", orderly Galaxy, peaceful and shaped to his will, where his vision of what is good and right was upheld. Unfortunately for him, he made the mistake of trusting Palpatine, because he wanted to trust him, not becuase he was deserving of that trust. In the end, that mistake was the death of him.

 

No, I would say Dooku is as good of a Sith Lord as they get. He gets fed up with the Jedi and their lack of action, and over time those feelings only intensify until he gets angry enough to turn to the dark side and follow Sidious. In the end he's not even working to fulfill the ideals he started out following, but simply to get revenge in a way.

 

I'm not sure that constitutes having too much light in him. His ideals weren't too far from the Nazis and I don't recall any light in them.

 

To add to this, Dooku believed that he would end up going to jail after his fight with Anakin. But then as soon as Anakin was recruited and the Jedi destroyed, he'd be out again. He believed the main goal of the fight was actually to kill Obi-Wan, which was really was part of Palpatine's plan, and with him gone Anakin would turn much easier. I don't think Dooku realized Anakin was as far along the dark path as he was, or else he would have seen right through Sidious assertion that Anakin would merely arrest him.

 

I always figured Dooku's job was to ensure there was a war, and it waged on until Palpatine/Sidious was ready to put it to an end. He was to create and sustain the seperatist movement, to ensure a conflict. After the need for that conflict was over, well I didn't know really what would happen with Dooku. But it would make sense Anakin does "take him out" because Dooku's "services" are no longer required.

 

In fact, that's true of any Sith. They think that they are doing the right thing. That they are bringing peace and justice, only with an iron fist.

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they?re good and Lord Sidious thinks he?s bringing peace to the galaxy because there is so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on and now he?s going to be able to straighten everything out which maybe true but the price the galaxy is going to have to pay for it is way too much."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they?re good and Lord Sidious thinks he?s bringing peace to the galaxy because there is so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on and now he?s going to be able to straighten everything out which maybe true but the price the galaxy is going to have to pay for it is way too much."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Sinister, does Tyranus seem to be on the "fringes" of being a true Sith? He obviously does not follow any of the Jedi beliefs but I'm not understanding where he saw himself. One day would he challenge Sidious for his throne? I don't see him "on the fence" but I have trouble figuring what he wanted ultimately.

 

^
That's how we know Tyranus was a true place holder. He didn't act like a true Sith. Anything I have read of Dooku shows that he did not wish to overthrow Palpatine. And, at that point, it was good for Palpatine. He didn't have to worry about his apprentice overthrowing him and could focus on the Clone Wars and gaining power.

 

I see what you're saying. However, after watching & reading the PT, it seems kind of sad (IMO) that he's an intelligent character with strong beliefs (or conviction). He recognized the Jedi's complacency and other shortcomings that would be their undoing. I guess I'm just nit-picking the character in hindsight but I just can't shake the thought he seemed kind of lost or his goal(s) (other than not wanting to remain a Jedi).

 

I like the fact that Dooku isn't "over the top" evil like Sidious and Maul. It shows that some Sith cross the line abruptly, depending on their motivations, while others are seduced slowly and over the course of time. For me, he's probably the most interesting character in the PT.

 

According to "Legacy Of The Jedi", Dooku did have ambition. But according to Lucas and the ROTS novelization, Dooku was not in a rush to become all powerful like Vader. He was more like Maul, Bane and Revan. He would gather the power that he needed, learn all there is to know about the dark side and then wait for the opportunity to present itself. We know that in the ROTS novelization, Dooku looked to Obi-wan because of the connection to Qui-gon. There's only supposition, but I would think that after a time, he would try to work his way up to being Dark Lord. But according to the book, he had fallen for the same clap trap that the Sith from Lord Kaan's time fell for. That they would all be equals, rather than the survival of the fittest as it is under the more traditional Sith Order.

If anything, I'd say that Dooku was very close to be a true Sith. He just didn't let greed motivate him in the same way that it did Vader or even Sidious himself. What little we know of Maul, he did not have much in the way of ambition. He did have the desire to kill his Master, but he more or less acknowledged that he wasn't ready yet. Dooku, as far as we know, did not have that motivation. It seems that way in his conversation to Obi-wan, but then as we find out three years later, he was totally suckered in by Palps.

 

It wasn't that Dooku didn't have the motivation. He simply didn't have the means. Sidious was too freaking powerful, and I would say that if Dooku had any plans of overthrowing him he would need to wait until after Order 66, after the destruction of the Jedi, before going out to find his own apprentice and carrying this out (which coincidentally is exactly what Vader tries to do later, twice). Needless to say, he never lived up to that point.

 

I would disagree.

Dooku had many opportunities to kill or compromise Palpatine.

1)Dooku was the head of a powerful military establishment. Indeed, the CIS by all roghts should have crushed the Republic in a straight fight. The balance was so lopsided at the start of the war that several battles had to be thrown by the CIS to prolong the conflict. Dooku could have betrayed Sidious and marched his forces to victory and place himself as the ruler of the galaxy.

2)Dooku could have easily made good with the Jedi and together show up at Palpatine's office and kill him. There is no way Sidious could defeat Mace, Yoda and Dooku at the same time.

3)Dooku could have simply told the Jedi who Sidious was.

Conclusion, Dooku had no real desire to kill Sidious and take his place. It is more likely, as recited in the ROTS novelization, the old man wanted to retire knowing that the galaxy had been "saved" by the Sith.

 

The highlighted portion of your post is the EXACT reason that I found Dooku to be a completely useless character. The arc for Dooku is lame, because Anakin has already traveled that path. Granted, the films were out of order, but did we really NEED to see that another Jedi turned before Anakin did? Haven't we seen plenty of it in the comics, the books and in video games? The sole purpose for which Dooku was created was to show us that Jedi could fall... meh, we already knew it. Bland story-telling in my book.

How so? Other than some "fancy-schmanzy" aristocratically-pompous dialogue, and his twin decimations of Kenobi what did he do? The only real plot device that he carried out was delivering the Death Star plans. Any goon could have done that.

As always Mahlaydee, your posts command respect... That was a wonderful observation.

I have always maintained that any number of Sidious' cronies could have handled what Sidious required of Dooku. The only possible benefit to having Dooku was that Sidious (as Palpatine) could have played up the fact that a former Jedi was leading the CIS. If that had been done onscreen, the recycled fallen Jedi angle would have been tolerable. Lucas had the Jedi do it when they denounced Dooku's role in Padme's plight, but it didn't do enough to illustrate the Jedi's corruption. Having Palpatine be one to play it up to the Senate would have been much better, IMO.

All which makes him a horrible Sith in my book. Dooku wasn't evil per se', he was disenfranchised with the Jedi and the Republic. Dooku is more like the Dark Jedi living in the EU, than a Sith Lord that exist in the films.

*

 

You and I have read the comics and books. A whole bunch of other people don't. Also, Lucas had another reason. He wanted us to see the opposite of Luke and Vader's ordeal on the Death Star. One where the situation ends badly. In this case, Anakin kills Dooku who is at his mercy. That whole fight in ROTS is meant to evoke the same feelings from ROTJ. The basics are similar. Skywalker fights a Jedi turned Sith before the Dark Lord himself, while a space battle rages outside. Skywalker must choose between good and evil. Luke chooses good, Anakin chooses evil. We're supposed to have that sense of deja vu. History is repeating itself all over again.

 

And if Dooku betrayed Sidious, then how many of the Separatists' secrets would suddenly fall into Republic hands?

Yes, Dooku could have told the Jedi about Sidious. But as it turns out, he despises the Jedi more than he fears Sidious, which is how he wound up being a Sith Lord to begin with. Sidious literally feeds off the evil of other beings. He used Nute Gunray's greed and avarice to constantly bait him along, making him more and more his dependent. Dooku was a less unwitting subject, but he too had his disillusion and anger fed by Sidious until he could no longer break free. Sidious literally personifies the dark side in how he magnifies the evil in people's hearts, and draws his power from it.

 

That would make a great "what if" scenario. Dooku genuinely wants to overthrow the Republic and lead the Seperatists to victory. He ousts Palpatine/Sidious to the Jedi, who remove Sidious from power, and manages to take Obi-Wan as his Sith apprentice. The Jedi and the Senate are in conflict over who will lead the war effort, Dooku gains strength, Order 66 never occurs, and the Clone Wars continue for decades.

 

Even Palpatine's chair was the same! I gotta agree with ya, Sinister, this is perhaps one of the most blatantly symbolic scenes in the entire PT. It is a direct play on the Throne Room scene in ROTJ. Anakin chooses to kill a helpless Dooku, Luke chooses not to kill a helpless Vader. Its one of the reasons I believe that Luke is definitely his father's son, however, where Anakin chose poorly, Luke chose wisely in his decisions. Luke is what Anakin should have been, and I think that scene in ROTS illustrates that.