What is the overall opinion of Darth Sidious now after watching ROTS?

farrellq, sorry, but I don't get it. Several thousand Jedi, including Yoda and Mace, proved to be unable to stop one single Sith Lord and his respective apprentice. What more, how much more powerful do you expect the guy to be?

 

farrellq, sorry, but I don't get it. Several thousand Jedi, including Yoda and Mace, proved to be unable to stop one single Sith Lord and his respective apprentice. What more, how much more powerful do you expect the guy to be?

 

Several thousand?

In AOTC, it was said that the Jedi nubers were only around 100. Throughout the Clone Wars, that number could have only dwindled.

 

Nubers?
"Ahh Nubian!"
Watt to do when it kommess to Watto?!

 

When did it say that? I thought Mace Windu brought over 100 to Geonosis alone?

 

100 Jedi were supposed to be "the guardians of peace and justice" for a republic comprising several thousand planets? I don't recall anything like that being mentioned in AOTC, and I'd like to see a quote on the part of an official source confirming it.

edit:

It didn't. From the OS:

"When it came to war, and the first shots of the Clone Wars were fired on Geonosis, only a scant 200 Jedi were readily available for the conflict."

200 (not "100") were "readily available". A greater number was scattered througout the galaxy.

 

farrellq, sorry, but I don't get it. Several thousand Jedi, including Yoda and Mace, proved to be unable to stop one single Sith Lord and his respective apprentice. What more, how much more powerful do you expect the guy to be?

I was basing my opinions on what other posters have said. There was an entire thread that asked if the Emperor looks less powerful in ROTS. The only reason I can think of for why he would seem less powerful is that his lightning was deflected. If no one deflected his lightning, the way it was in ROTJ, then I think everyone would still be in awe of the Emperor's powers.

The only thing I can think of that could convince me the Emperor doesn't look less impressive is the characters' thoughts. If Luke assumed lightning can be blocked by a saber, then the Emperor wouldn't look any weaker than he did in ROTJ. It may be difficult to know what a character is thinking, but some audience members thought force lightning was an unstoppable power.

 

I wasn't dissapointed at all by the time Palpatine showed his true self, i thought he was about as evil and determined as he had to be to take control of the galaxy. it was pretty cool how he looked when fighting yoda.(yoda was cool in that part to)

 

This may be blasphemy to state so but I didn't much care for the Emperor as he appeared in ROTJ myself. Ian McDiarmid's performance in that film was all wrong. He hammed it up and cackled to much. I had always had the image of the Emperor as being some kind of terrifying monster. Upon seeing ROTJ somehow a medium sized old man in a cloak and cowl hobbling along with a cane and acting like Dick Dastardly,,saying lines like "Goood! Eh heh heh heh hah hah hah!"was not what I had in mind. [The sagging makeup wasn't too good either]Some of his scenes were good like the big climax but..for the most part he was underwhelming like the rest of the film.
Too bad Christopher Lee hadn't been approached first to play the part what with his being nice and tall,and intimidating,having a deep commanding voice and playing his villains with magnificent restraint. He would've been WAY better. Or maybe Tony Jay..

Having stated that I really loved Ian McDiarmid in the three new StarWars films pts. 1 thru 3.He redeemed himself. He played Darth Sidious with the ominous calm and menace that the part deserved.After seeing the kinder,gentler,lightweight baddie in ROTJ who would've thought McDiarmid had it in him to create a darker much more evil, sinister, Emperor. These three films made Darth Sidious into a much more intriguing,vast, and epic character.He single handedly with the help of the Dark Side of the Force created the Empire. Certainly alot more powerful and dramatic than he was in ROTJ. And man is that makeup job in ROTS great! Like a cross between Dorian Gray and the mummy. Great startling closeups of him as he swings that lightsaber.

 

After seeing the kinder,gentler,lightweight baddie in ROTJ who would've thought McDiarmid had it in him to create a darker much more evil,

I would never use the word "kind" to describe the Emperor. He's the epitome of pure evil. What made you think he appeared kind, gentle, or lightweight in ROTJ? I know that his acting might seem over-the-top, but the character is certainly dark and evil. If anything, McDiarmid was more over-the-top after his Sidious transformation in ROTS than he was in ROTJ.

 

I have seen a lot of comments about how Sidious isn't that good with a lightsaber, I would just like to ask who you think trained Darth Maul to use his double bladed lightsaber? Maul was one of the fiercest duelers ever he clearly had a teacher who knew what he was doing. "You have been well trained my young apprentice.."

 

Farrellg said

I would never use the word "kind" to describe the Emperor. He's the epitome of pure evil. What made you think he appeared kind, gentle, or lightweight in ROTJ?



I was being a little sarcastic. In my opinion the Emperor in ROTJ struck me as being a lighthearted baddie.Superficially evil. I truly wish I could agree with you that the Emperor was the epitome of evil. I certainly wanted him to be just that.When I read section of the script for TESB describing the Emperor as having a voice deeper and more frightening than Vader I was intrigued. When I saw the concept art paintings Ralph McQuarrie did of the Emperor in the book 'The Art Of The Empire Strikes Back' showing the Emperor as a huge awesome,cosmic being type monster I was blown away and excited about how he'd appear in ROTJ.

But upon seeing ROTJ I was very dismayed and disappointed at seeing the Emperor as being just your basic Snidely Whiplash/Dick Dastardly type cartoon villain who smiles and laughs too much.Not.Scary.
I do like him ordering the Death Star to fire on the rebel fleet,the lightning climax and John Williams theme [for the Emperor] however..

You are right about the Emperor going over the top in ROTS when he fights Yoda.He actually seemed to have gone mad.Even tho I enjoy it I would've preferred that he'd have been as solemnly and steely resolved as Count Dooku was in AOTC when he [Dooku] fought Yoda. Still the fact that Sidious beat Yoda makes up for his theatrics I suppose..

 

In my opinion the Emperor in ROTJ struck me as being a lighthearted baddie.Superficially evil. I truly wish I could agree with you that the Emperor was the epitome of evil.

I think he was the epitome of evil simply because he was more evil than Vader. A villain doesn't need an imposing physical presence to be powerful.

But upon seeing ROTJ I was very dismayed and disappointed at seeing the Emperor as being just your basic Snidely Whiplash/Dick Dastardly type cartoon villain who smiles and laughs too much.Not.Scary.

I thought that electrocuting Luke and ordering Vader around made him scary. Not too many villains can dominate the hero as easily as the Emperor did.

 

Sorry.Meant to reply sooner but have been busy. Even tho it appears this thread is asleep I'll post anyway



Farrellg posted:
I think he was the epitome of evil simply because he was more evil than Vader. A villain doesn't need an imposing physical presence to be powerful.


True. Hannibal Lector and Freddy Krueger are effective villains precisely because they are medium sized men. Even tho I thought a taller Darth Sidious would've been nice I was able to overlook McDiarmids lack of stature in pts 1 thru 3 because he was so great in those films.Playing the Emperor the way he should've played him the first time around in ROTJ.


Farrellg posted:
I thought that electrocuting Luke and ordering Vader around made him scary.


The climax with the Emperor electrocuting Luke IS good. No disagreement there. The only really good scene in the whole film.

But I thought and still feel The Emperor seemed too non threatening and grandfatherly in ROTJ in most of his scenes compared to what he was in ROTS,AOTC,& TPM. I found myself doubting and questioning the whole scenario in ROTJ 'This is Darth Vader's boss??? Vader takes orders from this guy??'. Only John Williams music was awe-inspiring. Listening to it on it's own I can imagine a much more impressive and scary Emperor.

I have to say too in addition to the Emperor, Vader himself in ROTJ had become nonthreatening compared to what he was in TESB. Vader seemed like a subdued shell of his former self. [thanks perhaps to Richard Marquands limp weak directing] I thought his being defeated by Luke in the lightsabre duel looked completly wrong,unbelievable,and ridiculous. And the makeup when he was unmasked was pretty lame too. Dave Prowse said the unmasked Vader "..looked like Humpty Dumpty."

Irvin Kershner's much more powerful, scarier Lord Vader from TESB taking orders from the new darker ROTS Emperor that puts in a newly inserted appearence [in the TESB dvd] was more fun and enjoyable to me. The Emperor's unsmiling,noncackling, emotionless, ghostly delivery of his dialogue with Vader was worthy of Christopher Lee. Great scene great film. If only ROTJ had been like that...

 

No problem. There have been instances where I didn't have time to use the Internet.

I can understand where you are coming from. I've seen articles that express similar sentiments about the Emperor in ROTJ. One author said that he was surprised to see a funny old man, limping and with a witch-like cackle. He thought this couldn't be the most evil man in the universe and the Master of Vader. The author pointed out that the Emperor eventually proves himself to the audience, despite his underwhelming first impression.

Another article said that the Emperor in ROTJ is the perfect example of how not to portray a villain. The author said that ESB Vader was the perfect villain because you never knew what he was going to do. According to the article, the Emperor didn't seem as menacing as Vader because the former's actions were so predictable. The author also claimed that a villain resorting to petty sarcasm isn't a good thing.

Obviously, I don't agree with these opinions. I thought the Emperor in ROTJ was the greatest screen villain. However, its always beneficial to explore other points of view. This helps me understand what other people might be thinking.

 

I liked Ian McDiarmid's portrayl of the Emporer, but found that I disliked the Emporer's character. We understand why he did all of the political moves he made, but I feel that (especially in TPM) Lucas could have made it subtler and less obvious that his motives were not benign. I felt like the audience was let on too much into this private joke Sidious was weaving, and that we should have been left in the dark in some aspects more than what we were. As for the Emporer's sudden leap to the top of the swordsman food chain, I'll just say this- Yoda reveals in AOTC that he has skills in combat though he shows no knowledge of this in TPM. Fans mostly revile George and claim he raped their childhood. Palpatine kills 3 Jedi Masters in the span of 5 seconds with no effort and having shown no prior usage of the Force (though we all know about his Force lightning). Fans think that it was "well done" and shows that Palpatine could "throw down with the best of them". I'm quite confused on how both essentially alter the characters in drastic ways and suddenly people are biased towards Sidious because "we all knew it was gonna happen" and "it's something his character would have done". But I digress- back to Palpatine. I guess my major gripe is the fact that his Force lightning is still enigmatic. We really know nothing of how it's employed, and George opened up a bigger can of worms with the infamous "Mace Windu reflecting Force Lightning with his saber" part. Add in the question of whether this affected his appearance, whether he really wanted Anakin to be stronger than he was, and how the Force lightning that altered his face so drastically left him bereft of scars or muscular impediment. It adds up to a confusing equation that I feel was left somewhat incomplete. But then again, I felt that alot of characters in ROTS were at their low in character development so this may be a natural statement to make.

 

and George opened up a bigger can of worms with the infamous "Mace Windu reflecting Force Lightning with his saber" part.

I agree. It seems that reflecting lightning is what made people think the Emperor looks weaker.

 

I think GL did a fine job with Palpatine.If he made him all powerful he would'nt need Anakin.Even if he cound'nt destroy Yoda I don't think it means he's weak.He did kill three jedi masters in a matter of seconds.

 

i was disappointed, if sidious legitmately lost to mace windu, then sidious seems no better than maul, tyrannus, or even grievous. to me yoda and sidious should be far superior to other jedi and sith. mace windu should not be even with yoda, no person should be, not even sidious. the movie plays out so much better for me if sidious let mace windu win, totally depending on anakin to save him. then yoda and sidious fight and sidious is barely able to defend himself. ahhh, that's the way i like it.

 

Saying Palps couldnt have beat Mace in RotS is like saying Yoda was truly insane in ESB...

So perhaps Sidious chooses to wield his power not through his considerable lightsaber skills,
I forget where but somewhere palpatine tells vader sith have evolved past the use/need of a lightsaber, that they only use it to if anything, mock the jedi.

 

I'm not saying the Emperor has to be all-powerful. I just want to him to be as strong as he was in ROTJ. People have said that he looks a lot weaker in ROTS.

 

He is the master of deception and is so subtle in his coercions, quickly evil with the saber and clearly respectable as a person...his goal was peace through force and order through domination. I never truly understood what Yoda meant when he said in ROTJ "Do not underestimate that powers of the Emperor, or suffer your father's fate you will...." until ROTS. HE is the master of evil...

 

Still a swine.
Only moreso.

I can't see a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise...

 

Maul was killed by a Padawan. Clearly he wasn't that "fierce".

I wasn't impressed by Sidious' lightsaber skills in RotS. I don't know whether to chalk it up to Ian's lack of skill, or poor choreography but, RotS is the first time Sidious pulls his lightsaber in who knows how long. I figure he rusty to say the least. Especially against Jedi who have been honing their skills by fighting in the clone wars for 3+ years. Granted, it was impressive how he took out 3 masters in seconds but, I contibute that to even more lack of skill on their part. I mean even Jango Fett took out a Jedi Master in a matter of seconds in AotC. Just because they are Masters doesn't mean they are master's with a saber.

 

I just used my imagination and thought, Palpatine must be a blurr to the other jedi, although we can still see him. That explains why the jedi can't react in time to him. (It also explains the fighting style in the OT, vader is fighting in the same blurr-like style against obi-wan) Hah, dellusions keep me happy!