CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

It's not about getting a free pass. Whether or not you feel that he should be redeemed or not, is up to you. But Anakin was a good man. The problem is that the Force is a power and the dark side is rather intoxicating. It can easily influence a Jedi, if they let it. It is quick to join in a fight. It feeds off of anger and hate, intensifying and enhancing it. Luke himself was going to murder his own father because he had hated the darkness within him, when he kept protesting that he didn't want to kill him. That is no different from Anakin choking Padme after going through all that just to save her from dying.

 

I've never really had a problem with it and I've had less of a problem since I started looking at it this way; It's pretty obvious that as a Force ghost you can appear any way you want. He wasn't wearing long beige robes in his last moment as a Jedi either. If you want to you can also justify that he should appear in the Darth Vader armour too, he was coming from the good side when he through Palpatine down the shaft, hence Jedi.
You can be darn sure that if it were me, I'd be choosing my 25 year old self to use as my ghost appearance.

 

"It is too late for me..son"

That Vader quote in ROTJ just screams, sorry son, I committed genocide and murdered a bunch of 5 years olds. I'm too far gone and probably deserve to die, but thanks for trying.

 

Pretty much. He's struggling because when he sees Luke, the lust for power was still strong. But the more he was around Luke and saw him, the more the part of him that was Anakin started to resurface. Luke briefly glimpsed the good within him and once Luke realizes that, he pushes hard to save him. And Vader doesn't know what to do when pressed.

 

Yeah well that's kind of my point. He never really was a good person who showed remorse until the very end of ROTJ.

 

Umm...



I don't think those are tears of joy. Of course, it's within your rights to think he's gone too far (I'm sure many in the GFFA would agree) but I do think he showed remorse.

 

I wouldn't deny that he didn't show remorse for the things he did, but then again, you can say sorry and cry all you like, but it's not going to bring back all the people you've killed. As they say in Alien 3: "Nobody cares about a bunch of murderers who found redemption at the ass-end of space."

 

No contest there but the point made earlier was that Anakin showed no remorse when I think it's pretty clear he did. As to the murders, I equally think those who were the victims of Vader would hardly care whether it was Hayden or Sebastian's face attached to Anakin's ghost -- he's responsible regardless.

 

There is no problem with it.

 

That's because the dark side has a grip on him. He's trying to justify his actions to himself and more and more, he's believing it. And then he finally accepts that he is too far gone once he's told that Padme is dead because of him. He doesn't make apologies and instead embraces who he is, much like Dillon and the other convicts did. And in the end, Luke does care about his redemption because as his son and as a Jedi, that is the right thing to do. To forgive the crimes and to see past the darkness. He cannot make up for his crimes, but he can at least become the man that he should have been.

 

Pretty much. By the time he's suited up and overlooking the Death Star construction, that is his new life and new family. He doesn't really have much of a choice but to embrace it.

 

Nothing wrong with that. As I grew up with the prequels, Hayden in my eyes was always Anakin Skywalker, so to have him appear as ghost Anakin made perfect sense, and gave me a sense of closure and continuity to the saga. It also didnt make much sense to have a ghost anakin who kinda was in his 70s, after it was established he was in his 40s by the time of his death, so maybe they could have made Hayden look older, but really there is no problem imo.

 

I'm more of an OT fan but there's no issue with having Hayden's face at the end of ROTJ - because that's who most of the younger audiences (who are familiar with the PT) can relate to, having seen Anakin unmasked all the way until ROTS. Although I do agree with a couple of you earlier posters that since Hayden's a digital addition to the original guy's face, they should have edited Hayden to make him look slightly older!

 

It just doesnt fit. Anakin as an old guy is how he died and he had transformed back to the lightside right before he died so it shouldve been that ghost. Ewan Mcgregor didnt pop up at the end lol

 

Obi-wan didn't sell his soul to the devil. Anakin became good, but his soul is only restored when he retains his identity after he dies. Because of the taint of the dark side, his true self is frozen as he was before he became evil. Besides, if you want to play how he died is how he should look, then he should look all ****** up. In TFA, we hear Obi-wan's voice as both an old man and as a younger man.

 

Does it strike you as odd as it does me that for those who seem to always want to talk about the "mystical" aspect of the Force spend so much time on wanting to define Force ghosts based on the physicality of the person before they join the Force as opposed to the inner spirit?

The Light Side of Anakin died when he joined the Dark Side. His Dark Side self can't be a spirit only his Light Side can as per the movies.

It's really makes total sense.

 

Devil? Soul? Such things are never mentioned in the movies. Neither is this rule of a soul only being restored to the moment before it was sold.

How can we even define such a specific point in time? When was the exact moment he became evil? When he gave in to hate/revenge and murdered the Tusken women and children? When he gave in to revenge again to kill Dooku? When he cut off Mace's arm to protect (from a trial-less execution) the person who could help him save his wife? Or was it when he murdered his first youngling? Does this moment of becoming evil even have to coincide with a physical action? Could he have been evil when he when he internally made the decision to kill innocent younglings? Or does it not happen until the first youngling head is actually rolling on the floor?

My point is that Anakin throughout episodes II and III is a troubled and perhaps mentally unstable man. He is a grey character. Don't you think that reverting back to that person as a Force ghost symbolizes regression? Coming back as an older ghost symbolizes growth and development, as if telling the audience that although Anakin is still guided by his feelings, he is no longer the greedily possessive and vengeful young man that he once was.

Well Obi-wan was struck through his body with a lightsaber yet retains his full body as a ghost. So there's precedence that ghosts can have fully intact parts that were previously injured. But he was still old, just like Anakin should be. Regarding TFA, it was Ewan Mcgregor's voice, but it could have just been him playing old Obi-wan. After all, Alec Guinness isn't exactly around to record new lines; they were lucky to be able to extract "Rey" from "afraid".

 

The Obi-Wan lines were in a vision. Funky stuff like old and young Obi-Wan makes sense there imo.
Anakin was only at peace in ROTJ.
Remember when Anakin tells Luke, "You already have" in regards to Luke wanting to save him?
That was more at peace than anything in the PT aside from early TPM imo.
Reverting back to Hayden lessens the impact of ROTJ.
The 23 years between ROTS and ROTJ happened. To go back to that just lessens everything.
ROTJ Anakin succeeded where ROTS Anakin failed.
Anakin was fully back before his death.
If he had lived for a couple years after ROTJ, he would still be ROTS Anakin as a ghost after he died? Makes no sense.
He turned back to the light side means nothing?

 

The Force clearly has a Resume Play function.

 

Darth Sidious is an analogue to the Devil. Anakin Skywalker makes a Faustian bargain, which as Lucas said, is selling his soul. The Force ghost is essentially one's soul. And while the films, nor TCW discuss why one appears as they do, Lucas has.

The moment Lucas defines is the moment where he pledges himself to Darth Sidious and is anointed as Darth Vader.

No. I understand the point Lucas is going for, which is the good person who Anakin was before he became Vader. It was never about growth for him when he agreed with Kazanjian that Anakin should be a ghost, after deciding that Vader should stay dead and not return to life as he initially intended. It was about showing that Anakin did become a good man again and was now reunited with his friend and former Master.

Obi-wan never went evil as his Apprentice did. That was the point. Obi-wan kept his soul and died with it. Anakin lost his soul when he fell and it was restored. As to how Obi-wan would appear, he might appear as an old man. That is true if Ewan were to appear. But he could also appear as a younger man. It depends on what will happen. But my point is that we hear both the old and the young.

 

I probably still prefer Shaw as Anakin, but the inclusion of Hayden has been explained fully and really needs no more explanation.

Obi-Wan already gives enough of an explanation earlier in the film:

Coupled with the fact that there is a definitive point in Revenge of the Sith where Anakin is dubbed Darth Vader, it's pretty self-explanatory. Beyond that, it's whether you prefer the look of what Anakin would look like, or what he did look like. There's no right or wrong answer, as no depiction is inherently flawed.

 

Except not. Obi-Wan was wrong and Luke was right. Anakin came back on the DS.

 

The "true self frozen in time" explanation is probably one of Lucas's worst SE excuses. By that logic, Anakin Skywalker never returned to the Light at the end of RotJ.

Anakin Skywalker returned to the Light at the end of RotJ. Anakin Skywalker was old at the end of RotJ. Ergo, Anakin Skywalkr's old light side soul should look like this as the end of RotJ:

 

Let's, for a moment, take Lucas out of the equation and pretend that he has not had any comments whatsoever on any of this. How would you personally interpret what was presented in the movies? No Lucas references allowed. Did you see Anakin as a genuinely good person prior to pledging himself to Sidious? Or did you see him as a greedy, overly possessive, and vengeful man? Be honest. Is that really the "good man" who should be the Force ghost at the end?

I get what Lucas is going for; I've heard these interviews and commentaries as well. But his idea that Anakin reverted to the "good man he once was" just doesn't make sense to me. ROTS Anakin (pre-Sidious-pledge) is a murderer of innocent women and children. If that's the guy he's reverting to, the other Force ghosts better watch out. Based on what we see on screen (and not what Lucas says) when do we see Anakin as a good person? Certainly not in episodes II & III because he is greedy, lusts for power, and kills innocent beings. So that leaves two other Anakins: child Anakin and middle-aged Anakin. And from what we see on screen (so none of this soul business) which would make more sense to be a Force ghost? Middle-aged Anakin of course!

And, as a side note, I'm not trying to say that Lucas's remarks should be disregarded. But they also don't have to be gospel. We, as an audience, are allowed make our own interpretations of what we see on screen and they may or may not differ from Lucas's. And that's totally cool either way!

 

That's not in doubt. But he still went to the dark side in the first place and when he becomes one with the Force, we see him as he was before the fall. We see his soul.

He gains his soul back after he dies and it is how it was when he gave it up.

Yes, I saw him as a good man who had a lot of flaws. He only stops being a good man when this happens.



It is clear without the commentaries. That's why Lucas included this scene in the film, to show you that this is the point where he becomes Darth Vader.

We see the good man in the films. In the films, we see the good man who had helped Obi-wan many times because he cared for him. We see the good man who wanted to protect those that he cared for, be it his mother or Padme. We see the man who wanted to help the other members of Red Squadron and had to be reminded of his mission. We see a man who was tired of the war and just wanted to live in peace. Who was happily in love and who wanted to be a father. Yes, he did evil as well. That was always going to be part of who he was when Lucas merged the two together. No matter how it was done, you were going to see the evil before he committed himself to the dark side. Lucas was never going to have him decide to be evil and then just start committing evil acts. He was going to show us how one event lead into another and then another and so on. And throughout, we see him struggling. He killed the Tuskens, but he also knows that he shouldn't have done that. He killed Dooku, but he knows that he shouldn't have done that either. He doesn't want to endanger Padme, but he cannot standby and let his mother suffer. He is trying to be loyal to the Jedi, but he is also trying to be loyal to his friend. We see that he's confused about what the Council want him to do and what Palpatine tells him about the Council's actions. He loves his wife, but he is upset that she is talking like the enemy. He knows that he should arrest Palpatine, but he also knows that he is his only hope. And when he betrays Mace, he knows that he was wrong to do so.

So we see the good man throughout struggling with doing the right thing and having too many people telling him what is right and what is wrong. And he doesn't know who to trust and who to believe in.