CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

I just mean a generally creepy attitude. How he thought of her everyday since meeting her as a child, and the aforementioned "sorry" scene.

 

He got mad when she told him she had a crush on a boy when she was 12. lol That's obsessive.

 

What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi?



1. Makes no sense. Luke had finally just seen his father beneath the mask. Then shortly after that he sees his spirit in the form of some young guy he wouldn't even recognise!?
2. Older Anakin had chosen the right path. He came back to the good side, saved Luke & killed the Emperor. Why wouldn't his spirit be represented by that person at that age?
3. Disrespectful to the late Sebastian Shaw. No doubt his family greatly valued his appearance as one of the most famous characters in film history. To have that performance erased from all future releases is probably quite sad for them.

 

"Creepy", must be one of the most annoying and overused words in the English language, along with "whiny", especially in context of the prequels. You are neither being funny, a brilliant observer or even remotely original. All those words have been rehashed to death on every single OT vs. PT discussion. Oh, by the way, I honestly doubt Anakin addressed Padmé as "malady". Somehow I got the impression he liked her, so why would he regard her as some kind of illness? Or maybe he was lovesick enough to actually address the cause of his emotions as a disease? Now THAT would have been REALLY "creepy".
The proper form of address would by "milady" . Oh, and try to work on those adjectives. "Creepy" and "whiny" are getting at least as old as that "wooden" acting thing.
Oh, speaking of "stalking" and "awkward flirting", that sure never occurred in the OT, NOPE! All Han ever does is taking a fatherly protective and platonic kind of interest in Leia. No flirting there at all!

Makes no sense to YOU! Just go back and reread some of the arguments in favor of Hayden in this thread. Those DO make sense.

It's the film industry, which isn't always "fair"
Sometimes changes/sacrifices have to be made for the greater good of the story. Oh, that guy who played human Jabba was completely removed from the final cut of ANH. Must have been quite sad for him as well. Those kinds of things happen. The creator of any work of art sometimes decides to make changes, for whatever reasons. Actors get cut out, music is lost, scenes get deleted etc. That's life.

 

Luke had just seen his father without the mask. He's not going to recognise the ghost of Hayden Christensen. I used to think Luke enjoyed seeing his father's spirit in that final scene. Now I think he's just happy to see Obi-Wan & Yoda, oh & some random young dude with them.

 

Isn't Sebastian Shaw still credited as Anakin Skywalker in the credits? If so, then there's no disrespect there.

 

I'm sure Luke is smart enough to recognize his father, young or old! Ever heard of the Force? That's that mystical supernatural power we keep hearing about in every single SW movie. Something tells me a Force presence is way more important than mere physical appearance in that universe. Even if Luke WERE dumb enough not to know his young father, the Force would definitely have let him feel his presence.
Have you ever looked at your parents' or even grandparents' pictures as children? Could you not recognize them even though you never met them at that age? Even without the Force humans have the ability to recognize people even at huge age differences.

 

As the movie was for 30 years Luke didn't need to reach out with the Force to answer the puzzling question of who the young guy in spiritual form was. He saw all 3, with his eyes, & knew who they were. I prefer that version.

 

Really? Cutting out a scene where hes in full view, with no make up is ok because he's still credited?

 

The scene also plays far better the way it was. Shaw looked like a decent respectable gentleman. It was a look at what Anakin Skywalker would've become had he not been seduced by darkness. In those brief seconds you also sense an affection between him & his two spectral companions. Instead of that we get creepy young Anakin leering at Luke & his friends. No doubt with the same expression as when he was spying on Padme through those security cameras. Talk about tarnishing a once beautiful scene.

 

As early as the first movie we learn "the eyes can deceive you, don't trust them", from a Jedi master, no less. It's only natural for a Jedi to prefer to use his Force abilities and intuitions over his normal senses. Why could Luke deflect the training globe blasts on the Falcon blindfolded? How could he hit the DS target without his computer? That's right, again he used the Force.

Whether it's "OK" or not is a matter of opinion. But in the film industry, which is after all a business, things like that DO happen. SW is certainly no exception here.

 

Wooden acting is a tag well deserved in some places, theres some awful exchanges between Natalie and Hayden. I can see the whiny things now you mention it in some instances from Jake and also from AOTC Hayden too.

Equally Sebastian Shaw made perfect sense to everyone and still did even when the prequels were released. His appearance hasn't become less valid or confusing as we've just seen an older Anakin under the mask. No amount of words in capitals from you will change that opinion either. Saying Luke will recognise him through the force is just papering over the cracks of a change that wasn't thought through correctly IMO. If they were going to do it, they should have gone the whole hog and put Hayden in the unmasking scene too. Plus all the extra explanation since of learning how to become one with the force and having the choice of the body you manifest as is too much and muddies things. It was fine as it was.

Irrelevant, original Jabba was never released.

I'm honestly struggling to think of actors scenes cut 20 years after the fact from such a high profile film.

 

Yep people including Force users still use their vision to recognise others. If it were all about Force recognition why couldn't Vader sense that Leia was his daughter? Anyway, regardless it's still lame to have a character finally see a person unmasked & then 5 mins later see their ghost as a completely different looking person. The scene was perfect the way it was.

Also, why have him revert to his RotS look? He was already an a-hole then. A couple of years earlier he slaughtered a camp full of Sand People. Including women, children & babies. Maybe he should've been ghost AotC Anakin. Or maybe the kid from TPM. They could've digitally placed him sitting on Obi-Wan's shoulders. According to you that wouldn't confuse Luke at all.

 

As I said, hopelessly overused words, even though you personally may find them appropriate.

That would have been unnecessary. It was already established and an acceptable fact that after 30 years under the mask the Hayden identity would have aged and become unrecognizable. But with the Force ghost the connection to PT Anakin is established once again visually, continuity was what Lucas wanted here, and that's why I agree with his choice. That doesn't mean I like all the changes he made. But we can discuss this endlessly and still not agree. We have different opinions and interpretations, let's leave it at that. My arguments are not less valid just because some people disagree with them.

You stress the time period, while that is not really that relevant a factor. Granted, SW is extreme because it has been changed more than the average movie, and at much later points. For you the length of time that has passed before such a cut is made is a crucial factor, while I believe in principle it makes no difference. An actor does a scene, gets paid for his work, but may not end up in the final cut. I repeat that is standard movie making practice. Shaw at least could be seen for 30 years in the unrevised ROTJ, more than can be said of some actors that never even made it into any kind of release.

And could he recognize her visually on board the Tantive IV? No. The Force can also work to mask someone's identity for all we know. Maybe that's what happened with Leia, even though unintentionally on her part. Look, I'm not Lucas. You'd have to ask him for actual reasons. All I'm trying to do is give my own interpretation of what we see.

 

This really is way off the mark of this thread but briefly as I have said over and again if that is wooden acting then the other actors in the movies are blocks of granite by comparison.

The exchanges between Anakin and Padme are excellent and do exactly what Lucas wanted in full knowledge that some people simply wouldn't accept it because the style of performance and tone he wanted just was not what people expected that it should be. So once again Lucas did what people didn't want or expect. So same old, same old for him.

To actually get this on topic this method that Lucas employed from THX to AG to ANH and all of the other SW movies is what he does. He continually progresses and changes and experiments. That extends to everything and doing what he needs to do to tell the story he wants to do.

Sure he could have done the easy thing with Anakin and Padme and just do a simple variation on the Leia and Han romance or other more obvious classical romances but he didn't want to. He wanted a far more layered and complex relationship which one can argue isn't the best thing for something as simple as Star Wars is on the surface level.

As Lucas has said half of Star Wars is from the music. Star Wars is really about the visuals and music. The rest is support. For those who are tied up into dialogue then Star Wars is an extremely unsatisfying series of movies so they should look elsewhere.

Lucas said all the way back on the first movie that he knew most of the emotional content would have to be carried by the music. That is a normal state for many movies anyway but Star Wars even moreso.

Equally HC makes even more sense since he is Anakin in 2 entire movies.

Actually it has for many younger and newer viewers who will instantly recognize HC's Anakin but not Shaw's (who never appears in any of the movies in that ghost form). The other thing yet to come is when at some point HC will most likely reappear as Anakin in TLJ or IX. At that point the non-argument for SS in ROTJ will be completely finished.

Which is great because that is your opinion. No amount of words are going to change that HC is Anakin's ghost in ROTJ. That is how it's going to be. The only chance of seeing SS "officially" as Anakin's ghost would be if they release the OOT.

So how did Luke "recognize" that Anakin was still alive in Vader? That the good still existed? He recognized that is right in ROTJ. It was not based on physical recognition of someone he had never seen with his own eyes. Why would Luke at the end of ROTJ suddenly only recognize his father because he saw his Vader ravaged face? A Vader ravaged face that doesn't exist in ghost form no less.

That would have been awesome but we accept that AG's Obi-Wan is an older EM so accepting that SS's Anakin in Vader's body is an older, scarred, Dark Side infested HC is the same. EM didn't redub AG's line's. We simply accept that both versions of Obi-Wan's voice are the same from an in-universe perspective.

It's still fine as it is. The point is that there never was any explanation at the time. In the context of the OT many people wrongly thought all Jedi became Force Ghosts. When Qui-Gon didn't vanish in TPM many were puzzled. He also did not appear in ghost form. It was revealed that this is a training that is needed. Obviously Anakin did not have that training. So many of the things people thought were the case were proven to not be by watching the prequels.

Now as fans we know that Lucas had explanations for this at the time of ROTJ and that Obi-Wan and Yoda rescued Anakin from going into the Force. This explains why he didn't vanish and didn't take his physical form into the Force like they did.

Obi-Wan and Yoda were one with their physical beings as so appear that way. Anakin was not and so appears as he was before the Dark Side took him over as Vader. That makes total sense.

 

I actually find the Shaw ghost to be creepy, as it sentimentalizes Vader as a kindly ol' Gramps who is "healed" in heaven even after all his horrific actions. Young ghost maintains what I see as an appropriate middle ground. There's a slightly disharmonious note in Luke seeing his father as a young man, but that's appropriate given all that happened. Anakin's final act should be acknowledged, but all the bad cannot be washed away as if it never happened.

 

That's not obsessive. That's called jealousy. People get that way all the time, in real life. One of the issues of relationships is to seriously consider if you want to know about your lover's past partners, as it often sparks feelings of jealousy and inadequacy. Something which Lucas acknowledges in the commentary.

"So we have this little picnic where Anakin brings out the uncomfortable subject of previous boyfriends which boys have a tendency to do."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

He figured that she had had relationships in her life, which is why they were talking about it. But listening to her describe Palo, that brought up the jealousy and inadequacy on his part.

So, either Luke is too damn dumb to figure it out, or he never bothered to Google up Anakin Skywalker.

Not necessarily.

Uh, Shaw's still in the film. Just because he's regulated to one scene, instead of two, doesn't mean that said performance has been erased. Now, if Hayden had been in makeup and replaced Shaw in the unmasking scene, then you'd have a strong case of disrespect. Not to mention that Shaw wasn't even performing in the ghost scene, since he had no clue. Same with Hayden. I wouldn't call either one a performance compared to Guinness, who did know and thus performed.

Besides, did you get this upset that Ian McDiramid replaced TESB Palpatine?

 

To me, it's a bad case of Lucas wanting his cake and being able to eat it too. His justification for the change is showing Anakin when he was a good person, as a good Jedi, but then he also wanted Anakin to have a predisposition to being violent from a young age, to show a spark of what the boy was to become. So it begs the question, what "good Anakin" is Lucas trying to portray?

This one?


This one?


Or maybe this one?


Anakin wasn't a good person. He was a mass murderer from the age of 19, and beat up people just because they disagreed with him as a child. The only "good Anakin" that exists is in the fond memories of the friend Obi-Wan Kenobi once had.

 

It wasn't an ordinary disagreement, but an accusation of "cheating".

Deleted scene:


QUI-GON: What's this?
ANAKIN: He said I cheated.
QUI-GON: Did you?
ANAKIN: No!
QUI-GON: Do you still think he cheated?
GREEDO: Yes.
QUI-GON: Well, Annie. You know the truth...You will have to tolerate his opinion, fighting won't change it.
QUI-GON moves off down the street. Anakin follows. The GREEDO wanders over to WALD who has been watching the goings-on.
WALD: Keep this up, Greedo, and you're gonna come to a bad end.


Novelization:


He was just approaching the connector to Mos Espa Way when a Rodian youngster, bigger than himself, blocked his way. Anakin had cheated, the Rodian sneered. He couldn't have won the Boonta Eve any other way. No slave could win anything. Anakin was on top of him so fast the bigger being barely had time to put up his arms in defense before he was on the ground.
Anakin was hitting him as hard and fast as he could, not thinking about anything but how angry he was, not even aware that the source of his anger had nothing to do with his victim and everything to do with losing Padme.
Then Qui-Gon, returned by now with the eopies, was looming over him. He pulled Anakin away, separating the two fighters, and demanded to know what this was all about. Somewhat sheepishly, but still angry, Anakin told him. Qui-Gon studied him carefully, disappointment registering on his broad features. He fixed the young Rodian with his gaze and asked him if he still believed Anakin had cheated. The youngster, glowering at Anakin, said he did.
Qui-Gon put his hand on Anakin's shoulder and steered him away from the crowd, not saying anything until they were out of hearing.
"You know, Annie," he said then, his deep voice thoughtful, "fighting didn't change his opinion. The opinions of others, whether you agree with them or not, are something you have to learn to tolerate."
He walked the boy back toward his home, counseling him quietly about the way life worked, hand resting on his shoulder in a way that made Anakin feel comforted. As they neared the boy's home, the Jedi reached beneath his poncho and produced a leather pouch filled with credits.
"These are yours," he announced. "I sold the Pod." He pursed his lips. "To a particularly surly and rather insistent Dug."


Shmi in TPM makes a point of how, despite being a slave and suffering hardship himself, Anakin "gives without thought of reward" and "knows nothing of greed". So, it isn't just Obi-Wan.

 

darth-sinister Any normal adult knows how puberty works and wouldn't have an issue that when their partner went through it they had a crush on another child. In that moment Anakin's jealousy is excessive and abnormal.

 

Excessive? Abnormal? All he said was, and I quote, "All right, I get the picture". How is that excessive and abnormal? Everyone's done that. The only time Anakin took it too far was with Rush Clovis, who was in the present and an actual rival.

This is the Anakin Skywalker who was still good and still struggling between doing the right thing and personal vengeance.

This is Anakin Skywalker who just found his badly beaten mother and watched her die in his arms. He lashes out of anger and hate and he does go too far, but he's not evil. Just a deeply flawed person who committed a crime and then regretted it.

Then I must be evil, because I got in a fight when I was thirteen over being bullied. Anakin attacked Greedo because he was accused of cheating due to the fact that he won and Greedo was being a **** towards him. So Anakin lost his cool and punched him. It's not like he tried to kill him.

 

And he makes the wrong choice, making him not a good person.

No, robbing a convenience store because you grew up with a rough life makes you a flawed person. Killing an entire village out of anger and revenge is evil. Besides, there's plenty of people whose mother/father/sibling/child has been slaughtered violently. Rarely do they become mass murders from it.

And I don't think he really regretted it all that much.

I never said that particular act made him evil, I said it showed a seed planted in him that he was to become a terrible person.

 

So, because he chooses to kill a criminal and murderer in cold blood, he's evil?

They're also not being controlled by a power that is fueled by rage and can control them, as much as they can control it.

Except for the crying and saying that as a Jedi, he knows that he was better this. That he shouldn't have done it.

That doesn't make him a terrible person because he had gotten mad. The point of that scene was that Anakin does have anger in him, as Yoda noted. A lot of people can lose their temper and not grow up to become evil.

 

Actually he did greatly which was the point.

He's a Jedi and he should be better.

Same with Dooku.

He wants more and he knows he shouldn't.

When he truly becomes Vader he wants more and doesn't care about anything else.