CT What other ships did the rebels have at the time of ANH?

We know the rebels by ANH had at least X wings, Y wings, and corvettes like Leia's ship, but what else did they have? They must have already had at least the transport ships we saw at Hoth to move men and equipment around. Would they already have frigates by ANH? What about MC cruisers or would they not join up until after TESB? I personally do not think the Rebels had either A wings or B wings before TESB despite what the EU says, including new canon stuff.

 

What were some of those ships seen in the background at the end of Empire? They might of had some Seperatist ships.

 

In TESB, we see corvettes and one frigate along with transport ships. You are right that there are some unidentified rebel ships there too.



One is a unnamed rebel tanker it seems.





Many of the other rebel background ships are just paintings on pieces of glass, not models.

 

Great reconstruction effort: http://www.rebelscale.com/models/star-wars/rebel-tanker/

(Too bad, we never got original pictures of the other ships in background, except that for that one 'thingy' during the fleet flyby in ROJ)

Regarding the Mon Calamari (and Sullustian, IMHO) Star Cruisers / "Frigates" we saw in ROJ, I'm confident these were brought to the table by the alien Alliance members, around the time of ROJ.

Regarding the Rebel "Nebulon" Cruisers I believe these were also used as large bulk transports, like the segments of the deflector shield generatior installed on Hoth (this large equipment had to be brought there, somehow).

Personally, I would have liked to believe that the Alliance won its battle, mentioned in the ANH prologue, entirely by using 'snubfighters' and with only little to none capital ship support.

According to the commander of the Rebel Forces, General Willard, in the Leigh Brackett draft for ESB, 1,000+ star systems joined the Alliance after the destruction of Death Star I - so I would have thought that vessels like the "Nebulon" Cruiser (and perhaps the ESB transports, too) were contributed by these new supporters, but apparently Lucasfilm now has a different approach towards this issue...

 

delete!

 

Going by the third trailer for Rogue One:

the "alien Alliance members" had already brought Star Cruisers to the table before ANH.

 

How many of these ships are supposed to be from the explosion of rebellion supporters after A New Hope? was it ever said? It's kind of a similar question but I was wondering.

 

Iron_lord wrote

The "alien Alliance members" had already brought Star Cruisers to the table before ANH.

Says who? I didn't see any of those in the Rebel fleet at the end of ESB.

 

That wasn't the whole fleet - simply a part of it.

And, with new media coming in - we get shown Star Cruisers pre-TESB.

 

Iron_lord

First you say we'll see Mon Calamari ships "before" ANH and now it's just "before" TESB?

In the original ANH prologue drafts, George Lucas stated that another victory by the Alliance would make a 1,000 star systems become new supporters of the Alliance and according to the Leigh Brackett draft for ESB 1,000+ star systems did join the Alliance's cause after the destruction of Death Star I - and probably provided funding and materials.

But to have all those ships "before" ANH would make me wonder what these new 1,000+ star systems actually contributed to the common cause.

 

The point is - in the Rogue One trailers, set before ANH, we see a big ship, Star Cruiser-ish. The consensus in the Fleet Junkie thread is that it's probably Mon Cal. So, pre-TESB, and even pre-ANH.

And we see Mon Cal individuals in the Rogue One trailer as well - that blue-skinned guy.

 

Personally I don't see the rebels having anything bigger than a frigate pre TESB. The ending of TESB pretty much shows the then current entire rebel fleet. Of course spinoff writers can and will contradict what the 6 original films established to suit their individual visions.

 

In the original ROTJ novelization, a point is made of how this is the first time the entire Rebel Fleet has been gathered together.

 

Iron_lord wrote

In the original ROTJ novelization, a point is made of how this is the first time the entire Rebel Fleet has been gathered together.

Where exactly? I just read the passages of the fleet assembly, the hyperjump preparations and the fleet's arrival at the moon of Endor and couldn't find any information remotely suggesting that it's "the first time the entire Rebel Fleet" gathered together.

 

"We shall double our efforts, Lord Vader." And he meant it. For sometimes didn't even great men hurry, in time of great need?
Vader lowered his voice again. "I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor will tolerate no further delay in the final destruction of the outlaw Rebellion. And we have secret news now"—he included Jerjerrod, only, in this intimate detail—"The Rebel fleet has gathered all its forces into a single giant armada. The time is at hand when we can crush them, without mercy, in a single blow."


They were doing what a guerrilla force must never do: engage the enemy like a traditional army. The Imperial army, fighting the Rebellion's guerrilla war, was always losing—unless it won. The Rebels, by contrast, were always winning—unless they lost. And now, here was the most dangerous situation—the Alliance drawn into the open, to fight on the Empire's terms: if the Rebels lost this battle, they lost the war.

 

Iron_lord

Thanks for the heads-up.

"The Rebel fleet has gathered all its forces into a single giant armada".

Nevertheless you claimed that this was the "first time" the Alliance ever did gather all its ships (suggesting that what we saw at the end of ESB was therefore just a smaller part of the entire fleet), but I find this inconclusive.

Back in the 1980's most people considered the Mon Calamari to be new members of the Alliance, bringing their previously unseen capital ships to the table, thus Vader's statement could or should be taken in this context (new ships / forces that join into one giant armada) - as Mr. Kahn was assuredly not aware of Rebels when he wrote the novelization.

But how exactly does the original ESB novelization describe what we saw at the end of the film?

 

It's referred to as "the fleet" but, in the context of a larger Star Wars universe "a fleet" works better.

 

Everyone is free to believe/imagine what they want in their personnel head canon. But unless you're prepared to exclude both Rebels and Rogue One, you have to accept that the NEU is depicting the Rebel Alliance as having a vastly more robust and capable military force then the previous EU. I personally think this makes sense, given the strength of the Rebel fleet seen at Endor, the resources available in the galaxy, and the strength of their enemy: the Empire.

 

Hmmm good question!

 

...which just came to Endor with approx. 30 Star Destroyers and 1 Super Star Destroyer (it was never too difficult to count the Star Destroyers onscreen).

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ques...r-destroyers-shown-on-screen-at-the-same-time

 

Indeed. This is a debate I've had before...

Endor was the Emperor's trap to get the entirety of the Rebel Alliance together in one place in order to destroy them once and for all.

Given this plan, and given that an operational super-laser on the DS-II was a part of this plan:

-We can assume that the Emperor would want to include an Imperial naval fleet more than capable of containing, engaging, and destroying the Rebel fleet at Endor. I believe this is true, and that the Imperial fleet stationed in the Endor system was slightly more than a match for the Rebel fleet. When you thrown in a heavily guarded DS-II shield generator, an operational DS-II, and the fact the the Emperor is setting the trap, and knows the Rebel plans for their own fleet and the ground force trying to disable the DS-II shield generator, the fleet above Endor was very reasonable for the task at hand.

-We can assume the Empire knew the approximate strength of the Rebel fleet as Lord Vader knows they are 'massing at Sullust'.

-We can assume the Emperor does not want to station a overwhelming force at Endor, in case Rebel reconnaissance discovers the size of the Imperial fleet in the system and they determine their own attack force is insufficient and they scrap their plan to destroy the DS-II with the Alliance fleet, for this would also scrap the Emperor's plan.

Therefore, I do not consider the fleet at Endor to represent even a fraction of the Imperial Navy. This is because I tend to base the Empire's military strength on other factors such as the resources available to the prevailing galactic government, a government which is overly centralized and militarized.

 

I am a film purest and simply go by what the films themselves say. Lucasfilm even said the films are the clearest windows to the GFFA, and even the novelizations are fuzzier windows. Lucas also considered the EU as a different universe separate from his universe and free to go off in their own directions. The NEU seems to be following a similar pattern of going its own way separate from what the original films presents. Of course Lucas also disliked continuity saying it is for wimps, likely because it is a constraint of sorts. Likely details are changed and will continue to be changed to suit each new individual SW story. One story may have the rebel fleet big, another will have it small, etc.

Going by ANH, it seems the majority of the rebels were at Yavin, which is why their destruction would have been a fatal blow as the film states. If the rebels were a much larger group spread thought the GFFA at the time of ANH, then the destruction of thd Yavin base would not be a fatal loss for the rebellion but still a big blow.

 

It might be a case of "rebel primary leadership is at Yavin" - command and control of the organization as a whole" - thus, if the Empire destroys it, even if the Rebels haven't lost much in the way of military resources there (with them being spread throughout the galaxy as many small cells), they will still have been effectively decapitated.

Thus Vader's belief that this will be "the end of the Rebellion".

 

There is nothing in the film that remotely suggests that, but rather the contrary. Tarkin and Vader knew Leia would arrive on the hidden Rebel base before them, so that the essential military leadership had time to evacuate and apparently did: The commander of the Rebel Forces, General Willard, welcomed Leia and company but wasn't seen again later, neither in the war room nor at the medal ceremony at the end.

Motti in the ANH 4th draft from March 15, 1976: "The rebellion will continue only as long as these cowards have a sanctuary..." (ANH novelization "...a place where their pilots can relax and their machines can be repaired."

Had the Death Star destroyed Yavin IV, I wonder how all the pilots returning from other engagements elsewhere (with their *cough* A- and B-Wings) - which we obviously saw during the medal ceremony - would have reacted, once they would have realized that their main base of operations was gone.

No one would have dared to harbor these "terrorists", it would have been - indeed - the end of the rebellion (especially considering that its 'brain', Alderaan had been destroyed first).

I also feel that it's not a good approach to feature that many capital Rebel ships in Rogue One.

Gareth Edwards: “In your brain you think Star Wars is 50% sci-fi and 50% historical/real world, but it’s really like 90% historical/real world and 10% science fiction…" http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2016...-the-star-wars-designs-used-in-rogue-one.html

As a matter of fact, in my brain / head canon I use 90% of real history to understand / rationalize events in Star Wars but would feel compelled to ask Mr. Edwards why he didn't apply that to what seems to be the enigmatic battle in Rogue One mentioned in the ANH prologue.

In WW II naval warfare in the Atlantic and Pacific theater was no longer dominated and decided by traditional capital ship battles but ultimately by the (torpedo) bomber. And both ESB and ROJ used noticable elements from the made for TV film Midway, illustrating how the Battle of Midway was decided by planes, not capital ships.

Previously, I could safely rely that the danger Motti (Lucas) was referring to at the Death Star conference was the Alliance's "snubfighter threat" (motivating a paradigm shift from the "big guns" Devastator Class Star Destroyers to the "flak orientated" Avenger Class which nevertheless didn't do the Empire much good when the Alliance re-discovered ship-to-ship broadside exchanges during the Battle of Endor).

Should be interesting to see next month how much the Alliance's victory in their first battle is either owed to capital ships or fighters.

 

Again, you're free to imagine whatever you like. I will just point out that Rogue One will apparently contradict the concept that most of the Rebel forces were at Yavin IV. So I guess you'll have to determine whether your head canon involves 3 films, 6 films, 7 films, or 8 films at this point.

Regarding the NEU. Since they restarted the canon Lucasfilm has made a concerted effort to have one-canon. That is all films, books, and any other media will all tie-in together and be a part of the same galaxy. It doesn't mean that you have to accept anything in your personally canon, but it is being treated more seriously then the original EU. Which is a shame, because the original EU should have been treated with the same level of respect.

You could also say that WWII changed the definition of a capital ship: from battleship to aircraft carrier.