What Was Wrong With The LOTF Series???

Ive read a LOT of the Star Wars EU... a LOT!

But reading this forum i see a lot of different opinions, mostly that the LOTF was a terrible series.

Now i seem to be the same as most on my general feeling of the major series in the EU.

Clone Wars Series: 6.5/10
Han Solo Trilogy: 9.5/10
Thrawn Trilogy: 9.5/10
Jedi Academy Trilogy: 8/10
Calista Trilogy: 3/10
Hand Of Thrawn: 9/10
New Jedi Order: 8.5/10
Dark Nest: 6/10
LOTF Series: 7.5/10???

I mean yeah there was some faults with the LOTF series but it seems to get really slaughtered on here hahaha!

Tell me why it was so bad, and if you agree/disagree with any of those ratings^ let me know why.

 

[image=http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h125/Ulicus/YodaOpinion.jpg]
IMO.

EDIT: Actually, no. The concept had a great deal of promise, and up until after SACRIFICE I thought the thing could be salvaged pretty easily... but, uh, yeah, the execution was horrible. Ultimately, my "beef" comes down to this:

If they were going to turn JACEN SOLO(!!!) to the dark side... then they needed to make him a ridiculously awesome villain to offset the ridiculously awesome hero he was by the end of the NJO. Like... Revan meets Vader meets Palpatine awesome. Additionally, they needed to do it in such a way that it was believable and didn't rely almost entirely on a phoney characterisation of his previous teacher and/or her lessons. Instead we got "Chicken was a Sith, lets play "put on the helmet" and my cape is attacking me!"



I am internet bitter. *tumbleweed*

Still, at least they had Caedus reflect on the fact he was made of suck in INVINCIBLE. Which was pretty funny.

 

Also, a problem was the usage of pet characters. It seemed every time Karen Traviss was up at bat, Mandalorians would get five or six chapters dealing exclusively with them, and the rest would make heavy asides for their activities, not to mention Jaina's sudden Mando fanboyism in Revelation (there are literally dozens of groups with the knowhow to kill Jedi - because it's Traviss, this group must be Mandos and they will NOT be vilified!). The same type of thing happens with Troy Denning's Alema Rar. Allston's love of the Rogue/Wraith squadron characters isn't AS incongruous, because they're closer to the main action.

Now, this would be more consistent if such characters appeared equally in these books, but pet characters lead to plot whiplash. I don't need an entire book being an excursion to Mandalore.

Also, they really pound into Corellia. Can that planet never have decent leadership? More importantly, are any of them loyal to the Galactic Alliance? The entire Corellia plot was derailed by the Jedi vs. Sith redux. For shame, Del Rey, for shame.

 

I agree the Jacen turn was... strange.

Dark Nest practically blames his 5 year exile on the darker Jacen.

But learning non-jedi teachings is hardly a excuse for sith-hood.

Now i'd rather of seen Jaina turn myself...

 

Making Jacen epic anti-hero/villain in LotF would have gone a long way towards LotF epic as far as I'm concerned, that would have been a solid cornerstone on which to build more. Giving us more of the "second Galactic Civil War" would have made it feel more like a Galactic civil war, adding importance to LotF; I'm thinking they should have just made LotF the story of Jacen's rise to power as an Emperor and FotJ the story of the Second Galactic Civil War, ending in his likely fall. Now that could have been truly epic, as far I'm concerned.

 

I think one of the biggest problems for people was that there was no mystery about it, that DN kicked off the story of Jacen's fall with him engaging in no shortage of morally dubious act so that, when he turns in Backlash no one is surprised.

From everything that has been said of it, I tend to conclude that LOTF is the failure to Legacy's success: That is the successful fusing of OT and PT influences to produce a complex, satisfying whole. DHC's KOTOR series managed that too. This holy grail seems to be eluding DR though.

 

For me, there were three main problems with LotF: Traviss's worship of her blasted Mandalorians/hatred of Jedi, Jacen/Darth Caedus coming across as, if not an outright wimp, then certainly as not a credible galaxy-level threat, and Troy Denning royally screwing up the ending of Invincible, and thus of the whole series.

As to the first, what had been merely annoying in Traviss's first two books became a disaster in Revelation. Jaina Solo, ace pilot, veteran of the Yuuzhan Vong war, who during that time faced numerous opponents she couldn't sense/anticipate with the Force, turned into a wimp the instant she set foot on Mandalore. Seemingly eveyone can outfight her, and she can't help but admire everything the Mandos do. What really got to me, though, was when Traviss had Jaina think to herself that she'd never seen two people as much in love as Mirta and Ghes Orade. Right. Her parents' star-crossed relationship, Luke and Mara's union after a decade of dancing around each other, her own relationship with Jag - those couldn't possibly equal the offscreen romance of two minor characters. Because, according to Traviss, Mandos do everything better than the rest of the galaxy.

As for Darth Caedus? Jacen was defeated by Mara in Sacrifice and only managed to pull victory from the jaws of defeat through an illusion, he was defeated by Luke and Ben in Inferno and spared because of the flimsy excuse that finishing off the monster he'd become would turn them to the Dark Side (not to mention that it would end the series then and there), then one of Traviss's pet Mandos could have killed him, or at least put him into a world of hurt, in Revelation, but refrained from doing so as to not disobey his Mandalore. I just can't envision the truly great Sith Lords like Revan, Bane, Sidious or Vader being defeated so easily and so often. Really, by Invincible, the question was not whether Caedus would be defeated, but of who would finally take the last step and rid the galaxy of him.

Now, Denning's screw-up? He neglected to properly conclude a number of storylines and basically handwaved Natasi Daala, an unrepentant war criminal, into the office of Chief of State. Where was the opposition? Where were what should have been strenuous protests, by the Mon Calamari if no one else? (And of course, in LotF no one seems to remember Daala's crimes when Tahiri is put on trial.) Unlike others, I could have accepted Daala becoming Chief of State, if I had been shown the debate leading to her election, along with the logical opposition to it. But no, we just see the nomination's aftermath from Jaina's sick bed. This was IMO one of the biggest screw-ups in EU history. Invincible really needed about a half hundred additional pages to properly tie up everything, and shame on Denning and his editors for not realizing that.

After LotF in general and Revelation and Invicible in particular, I resolved not to buy hardcovers for FotJ, and thus far I have only been comforted in my decision.

 

I liked Betrayal. But after that, it just went up and down in terms of quality:

As other have said, Jacen's fall was poorly handled. It had a nice setup in Betrayal. But after that he was wishy washy until Sacrifice. He spent Tempest and Bloodlines going back and forth on being a sith when he'd already killed Nelani. What was the need for Sacrifice when you already made one in the first book of the series? So that irked me.

The Mandalorians and Boba Fett came across as being impossible (not just difficult) to defeat, extremely smart and basically good at everything. To the point that Jaina (trained by the Emperor's Hand!, the GRAND jedi Master! and daughter to Han and Leia) needed some ridiculous reason to train with Boba Fett. If you are going to kill a sith, how about training with actual Sith and Dark Jedi killers. Or people who have gone there and come back (Kyle, Kyp, and Luke would like a word with you Jaina).

The war took a back seat and the politics were ridiculous. For the entire reason Jacen went Sith (to prevent destruction of the galaxy), this area was so very poorly done.

The GAG, like the mandalorians were way too elite and perfect and dull. By contrast, the jedi were weak and stupid. Super stupid in fact. Jacen was walking around wearing a shirt that said "I'm a Sith" and the council wants to make him Jedi Master.

Luke had some nice moments but generally did nothing. Mara had a character reversion from Jedi Master to nearly sith when she tries to kill Jacen over redeeming him. And Jaina seemed to be pushed to the side until she's suddenly needed to kill her brother. Han and Leia just tag along for the ride but do nothing to save their sith lord son.

Jacen goes from Vader evil to crazy Joruus C'Boath and ROTS Emperor cackling crazy. And the writers switch this characterization back and forth so he goes from calm and sinister to crazy and psychotic and back again.

Essentially this series could have been done in 5-6 books in the 9 it had. Ben's suspicion of Jacen killing Mara was extended through 3 books before he finally reveals his findings. Some of the subplots were completely useless and could have been completely removed from the series and nothing would have suffered. Other subplots that were necessary were shoehorned in too late to be truly effective (Tahiri replacing Ben as Jacen's apprentice)

So basically, the writing was sloppy at times, the characterizations were off, the plot was dull or inconsistent instead of compelling and several characters were mishandled. That's not to say the series didn't have good moments. I enjoyed every one of Allston's books and found some of the stuff in Inferno to be very good. My core issue would be the consistency (or lack of) between each novel.

 

My biggest problem with it is that it takes our favourite three characters and subjects them to overwhelming levels of grief, sadness and suffering, for no good reason. It's cheap storytelling with zero payoff.

So mainly I disagree with its creative direction. On top of it the execution is awful. Characterisations are all over the place (Jaina and Luke among the worst), there is nothing compelling about the war being fought in the background of the series, Boba Fett is reduced from a fearsome enigma to a whiney emo moron that would fit better in a Twilight novel, and the plot moves so slowly between Sacrifice and Invincible that I'm certain the story could have been told over 6 books. Heck, the best execution would've been to give it to Allston and ask him to write the whole thing as a trilogy. Absolutely nothing shifts in the galaxy as a consequence of these novels, except farcical things such as the new Chief of State, that require a whole new 9-book series just to fix!

So yeah, it's pointless, it's poorly executed, it ruins the lives of the main protagonists, and it undoes the awesome conclusion of NJO: you know, where the Republic and the Empire have put the past behind them and shook hands, the Jedi have a new outlook to the Force that'll take them away from making the same mistakes as the PT Jedi, and everyone is kind of happy in spite of a war that killed 365 trillion or whatever it was.

I honestly wish they could just wipe everything from DN onwards and put a full stop to the lives of our heroes at the end of TUF. DN and LOTF have contributed absolutely nothing constructive to the overall story of Star Wars, but they've taken so much away.

 

Long story short, the first page of Betrayal to the last page of Invincible. More specifically...

1). Two incredibly unnecessary deaths that served no function other than to advance the plot of the story, which could have been dealt with in numerous other ways.

2). The incredibly silly plot development that Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi, needs to be trained by the Mandalorians in order to beat Jacen, which serves no real purpose other than to give Karen Traviss an excuse to play with her Mando toys.

3). The fact that, quite simply, Karen Traviss wrote a third of it, and her books have a running Mando plot that has nothing to do with the rest of the story. (Until Revelation, where it is more or less forced into the plot, and Invicible, where Troy Denning handles the material far better than Traviss ever could. It's also not a coincidence that two of her three books happen to include the aforementioned unnecessary deaths.)

4). The fact that, to paraphrase what Martin Lloyd said in the Stargate episode "200", Invincible "just ends." LOTF's plot, for lack of a better term, exhausts itself around Inferno, and we're stuck treading water till Invincible, where things finally start picking up again. And before you know it, it's pretty much over, with the last few chapters clumsily suggesting the set up that eventually turns to the Legacy, before Fate of the Jedi was born and undercuts the point of it all.

5). The fact that it's basic plot is pretty much the Prequel Trilogy, only not done nearly as well.

 

As someone who loves most of the LOTF series, I admit it had more than its fair share of problems. Since I like the Mandos (don't hate on me ), I wasn't really bothered that much by their appearance in Bloodlines, since I thought "Oh, this storyline will likely be continued throughout all of the books, with the major plot points for the Mandos happening in Traviss's books, but they will still be in the others, or at least mentioned." Boy was I wrong, with the same thing happening to Alema's storyline and Wedge's (which, BTW, I am still waiting for an end to). That really took the series down a level for me. And then, there was Invincible. I would get banned if I said my true feelings for this book on here. I will simply list what was good about it.

1. Caedus acting like a (mostly) competent villian.
2. Saba was there, she is pretty cool.
3. Jag taking over as head of the Imperial Remnant.
4. Let's see, what else... no, that was about it.

 

The only thing that's really wrong with it is all the Mando stuff, aka the Fett Family Filler. They should have cut that out and trimmed the series to 6 books.

 

More like "what wasn't wrong with LotF?"

All of the books aren't quite a complete disaster, read on their own some are almost decent (Betrayal, Inferno, Fury). But the overall plot is silly/stupid, and perhaps most of all, the series just such a waste of Jacen's character, kind of subverting the happy ending of NJO (Vergere was always a Sith, and the biggest next generation character goes down in flames, killed by his own twin sister who doesn't do anything important for seven books), not to mention killing off quite a few other major EU characters (Mara Jade, Pellaeon, Isolder, Omas who still doesn't have a picture), and unlike NJO's major deaths (like Anakin's and Chewie's were heroic last stands), most of LotF's deaths were just tragic at best, and out of character at worst. Also plotlines are introduced and dropped, not just between authors, but even in an author's other books. Like Corellia used to be important, then not sure its mentioned in Invincible, or how Jacen turned on that asteroid to avoid a future where he kills Luke, then from book 3 onwards, he's actively scheming against Luke, trying to kill him and he thought he had succeeded at Kashyyk.

And the "mystery" of who killed Mara was dragged out three books too long. I mean, Ben knew it was Jacen and asked him outright in Inferno, then it was dragged out until Revelation, where most of the pet characters somehow instantly knew it was Jacen, had deducted it with their "superior" brainpower while the Jedi just flounder about and everybody compares themselves to the Mandos and find themselves lacking, with the Jedi especially taking the brunt of the abuse (like when Luke references Mando culture when someone asks what a Sith is, without ever answering the question). Although all the authors had their pet characters though, though still don't get Tycho warning Caedus in Fury (it didn't change anything, but the way his POV was written, it wasn't part of a plan to keep him on the GA's good side). Also, for someone who is supposed to be the big bad villain, Caedus was a moron. Everyone was running circles around him, and that's just a bad way to write a villain. Luke had Caedus at his mercy twice in Inferno alone, but if Luke had defeated the villain then and there, well, the series would've been over, although that probably would've been better for everyone.

And then there's the final book. About the only good thing in there is that even Caedus noticed how stupid he had been acting, he was competent for maybe one chapter, then reverted to that arrogant jerk he had been for the rest of the series, not to mention his "maybe or maybe not 'redemption'" (which no, I don't think he made up for anything just because he warned Allana) death. And after all of that, after a long series of contrived, sad, strange, stupid events, we were introduced to the biggest what the kark SW moment ever- Galactic Alliance Chief of State Daala in the last... 10 pages of a nine book series. Argh, that makes no sense at all! There are tons of other problems with all nine books too, but others have mentioned them in more detail.

EDIT: Just wanted to add one more thing- the damage to Luke's character. Luke was still more powerful than Jacen, as was shown in Inferno, but aside from Inferno he never fought an all-out duel with him. No, instead Luke had to leave Caedus just lying there because he was more worried about Ben. First Luke kills Lumiya for the wrong crime (not that she was innocent in any way), but then once they finally find out Jacen killed Mara (in a pretty silly confession conveniently recorded by a pet character then delivered to the Jedi as neither Ben nor the Jedi are competent enough to figure it out apparently), Luke sites out the fight for fear that killing Caedus might drive him dark, and somehow they only send Jaina alone, instead, of, oh, the rest of the Jedi Council of Masters. I've occasionally tried to rationalize it, to defend Luke, like maybe they were afraid of a repeat of when four Jedi Masters went to arrest Palpatine, but its j

 

I actually enjoyed reading the LOTF books a lot. They were fun to read, and I liked a lot of the plot elements. I'll admit that there are a few problems; mandos being overpowered, certain plot lines being dropped between authors (well, sort of, not as much as in FOTJ though), the rather rushed ending in which Daala somehow becomes Chief of State without a rebellion starting because of it (and with people actually applauding her), and some others, but the LOTF series was overall an enjoyable read.

 

I'm going to lazily repost my thoughts on LOTF that I posted in some thread last July.

Hi Mozart! Welcome to the forums. I'm glad you're interested in Legacy of the Force --- it can be kind of confusing to figure out just what that term means, so I'll break it down for you.

Legacy of the Force is an umbrella term used for three loosely-connected trilogies that all take place at forty years after the Battle of Yavin. One of the trilogies is by Aaron Allston, one by Karen Traviss, and one by Troy Denning. So when you say skip to the second book, I'm a bit confused --- do you mean skip to the second book in Allston's trilogy? Or maybe you mean start with Bloodlines, which I think may have been the second book chronologically... maybe not, though, as it doesn't reference any of the events from Betrayal... but even if it is, I'd recommend reading one complete trilogy before starting the next; it'll be a much more coherent and connected experience that way.

The trilogies are all pretty different from each other, actually. Allston's trilogy is largely about Corellia and a group called the Confederation, two groups that are mentioned a couple of times in the other two trilogies, but mostly as asides. Traviss's trilogy is about Boba Fett and the Mandalorians, and is only related to the other two trilogies in a very cursory way. There are a few characters who make appearances in all three trilogies, but it's really just a cheap gimmick to make them all feel like a part of a larger multimedia project, which didn't really work out. For example, Luke Skywalker plays a large role in Allston's and Denning's trilogies, but only makes a couple of cameos in Traviss's trilogy. Han & Leia, also large players in Allston's and Denning's trilogies, don't appear in Traviss's trilogy at all, save for in the first book, but they're really just Macguffins used to kick off the Mandalorian plotline. Jaina Solo, a major player in Denning's trilogy, has one or two brief scenes in Traviss's first two books, and then mysteriously shows up in the third book of that trilogy, seemingly ignorant of the events and allies she has in the other two trilogies, which are supposed to take place around the exact same time. There was obviously little (if any) communication between the three authors, who all seemed to write their trilogies independently of one another, and then at the end, realize that they all had some very slight things in common, which seemed to be enough to make a Clone Wars-esque multimedia project out of it.

Interestingly enough, though, all three trilogies feature a main villain with the same name. I think it might be an implication of clones or something, because each trilogy's main villain is different enough from the other two that there's no way it could be the same character.

You'd be OK reading any of the trilogies without reading the other two; the scant mentions of events from the other two trilogies are really just fun things for the experienced SW reader, and are so few and far between that you won't even know you're missing anything. The final book of each trilogy is weird, though, as none of the three wrap up any of their characters' plotlines...

Yeah, this set of three trilogies is reminiscent of the days of the Bantam Era, where trilogies and one-shots were being written simultaneously and therefore couldn't reference eachother's events. I think that these three trilogies were in production for quite some time, as they don't take into account anything that happened during the Yuuzhan Vong War.

 

The way it was written. Round Robin writing like this means there is NO consistency between stories once pet characters get put in. Granted, Alliston's books are better at it, but Wedge is from Corellia, so it sort of concerns him a lot.

I agree that Traviss's novels should have been kept separate. I like her books, but they had no place in this story. As a standalone series, they wouldn't have had as much of an impact as they did.

Then comes the little war between Denning and Traviss. This is an offshoot from the Traviss novels, but Denning decided to start taking potshots at her stories, while detracting from his own leading up to the disaster of Invincible. Like Traviss is criticized for putting her opinions into her characters, Denning should be criticized for detracting from his story to bait another author.

And of course there is the complete destruction of Jacen's character, the thousand dangling plot threads, and no conclusion.

 

This is the best description one can give to LOTF- Three trilogies. Although to be fair Allston and Denning were atleast were the only ones that seemed to be cooperating, while Karen Traviss was the one who was living in her own universe filled with Mando sunflowers, and harps. Sure that Mando thing would come in useful LATER but it was a giant WTF, and fangirl worship. While Allston had some hope in LOTF as shown by his work in FURY, Denning had no hope whatsoever in Invincible. Further on, there was no such thing as the Yuzhang Vong War in LOTF. Jedi in LOTF should have been more stronger, and tougher than in the PT because of the EXTENSIVE experience they had had. The Vong were no droids- they were stronger faster, unknown thus a better enemy to

 

My biggest pet peeve with LOTF was the authors' lack of creativity in coming up with names for new characters. Vergere, Lumiya, Jacen Solo, and Boba Fett, for example, are new creations introduced in this series, yet they all share names with characters from earlier stories. I'm still not quite sure what the point of this was. If it was supposed to some sort of homage, it kind of failed miserably, because none of the new characters' personalities were anything like those of their namesakes.

 

Can someone go into more detail into this apparent feud? I never knew what happened behind the scenes of LOTF

 

Lol that was a funny review of lotf

 

Mr. Denning, on this very forum, denied that charge. I guess we can choose to believe him or not believe him. I'd like to believe Troy was sincere.

Unless there is qualified proof of this charge(which I doubt very much) I think speculation isn't a healthy thing.

 

The mandos were portrayed as uber in Revalation yet in Invincible Jaina is far more competent than them, they get owned by stormtroopers (to befair they were indeed elite handpicked stormtroopers that were more capable than typical stormtroopers and outnumbered the mandos), got owned even more by Caedus, Boba gets owned and outwitted by Luke and then the nano virus prevents any Fett from going to Mandalore again (unless if the virus is somehow cleaned).

I am not accusing Troy Denning, I'm simply pointing out the different characterizations of the mandos.

 

What was wrong with LOTF? Jacen Solo. Or Darth Caedus, but in my opinion he never showed up. Jacen Solo was three seperate people in LOTF.

1. Allston Jacen: Cobra Commander, just like Cobra Commander was partially an effective leader in the early episodes of G.I. Joe A Real American Hero, Jacen was pretty good as a villian in Betrayal, but just as Cobra Commander turned into a sniveling coward whose only dialog soon became "RETREAT! SAVE ME!!" so to did Jacen Solo become nothing but a sniveling coward who was always 'foiled again!' by those meddling Jedi!

2. Traviss Jacen: An emotionally conflicted human being who can't decide what he wants. He struggles to put aside his emotional connection to the world in order to become completely selfless and serve the galaxy. He feels what he is doing is a nessecary evil and takes no pride in what he does. His actions are simply a means to an end. Until later on his desire to become the greatest Sith ever to become the greatest galactic servant ever lead him to the horrible situation where he has slowly become the very dark and evil thing we sought to avoid becoming. Yet he rationalizes all his actions away and ultimately still believes that he is in the right. He is however a human being and needs time to relax in a bathtub and eat take out while having droids do all the important bueracratic stuff. His actions of leading from the front cause his men to love him.

3. Denning Jacen: Galvatron from G1 Transformers cartoon. Just as Galvatron was one of the most powerful Transformers, yet completely mad and likely to attack his own men more than the enemy this Jacen is just a complete nut case. He is not a sniveling coward or a cold calculating character he is simply a mad raving dog. His emotions cause him to be thrown into chaos, his desire to protect his daughter from the 'evils' of the galaxy cause him to do the most heinous acts in galactic history. But really he is just insane, more prone to attack his own allies than the enemy. His parents who just saved his wife? TRAITORS!! An effective officer who followed his orders leading to him losing? KILL! His cape? ET TU CAPE! This Jacen though completely nuts is none the less the most powerful of the three capable of defeating nearly all those who would challenge him. A crack Mandalorian assassin squad? Nothing but flies to him. Jedi? A minor annoyance.

Now elements of all these Jacen's somtimes bled through to the other authors books, if only to try and give some idea that they are all in fact the same person.

Now what would have made Jacen Darth Caedus? Betrayal Jacen and Invincible Jacen personality wise were just like they should have been, it was everything in the middle that was a problem. Jacen should have been the smartest most cunning character in the series. He should have had the GA under him not through a legal loophole a droid found but through is own cunning. Jacen should have been a tactical genious easily winning battle after battle. Jacen should have won at nearly every engagement. When Mara came after him he should have beat the ever loving crap out of her then delivered a philosophical taunt at her and the Jedi in general. Then Then slowly kill her and let her know how much she failed before walking away while saying Ben will make a great apprentice. Leave Mara to die thinking she has not only failed to kill him but her son is lost to the dark side. That would have made him a threat. Followed by fighting Luke and Ben and easily defeating them, and leaving them alive only to send a message to the Jedi while taunting a beaten Luke and Ben by telling them of how he killed Mara. When Kyle Katarn and the Jedi assassin squad show up let Jacen kill them all without even raising his hand. Make Jacen the most powerful Sith there is, beyond even Palpatine. Let Jacen have the same amount of power he had as Unifying Force Jacen as Darth Caedus.

Now his personality should have been the 'Ends justify the means, I'll become a sith for the greater good' of Betrayal for

 

I think that them having Luke being stronger than Caedus makes sense and is right.

 

Agreed!

I found the Mando obsession ridiculous. Its not like Traviss hasnt had plenty of novels to get into Mando stories....

What happened to Denning? Star By Star & Tatoonie Ghost were 2 of the best EU novels and yet i felt underwhelmed here. I think its a clear example of authors just not meshing well.

When the story started out i kinda feared for a few main jedi that i expected to be sacrificed (pun intended) to Jacen to make him seem a very powerful sith.

I was sureeeeeee Kyle was gonna get it, and Corran & Kyp too