What were they thinking?

And he didn't tell the Senate about the Jedi's so-called "betrayal" until after he had completed his Jedi extermination plan.

 

ya, i can't believe the jedi confronted sidious as the aggressor. i think mace windu was completely scared, i mean palpatine could of issued order 66 at any time and dealt with the consequences, no matter how severe, later.

MACE WiNDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from office.
. . .
MACE WiNDU: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

i think ki-adi-mundi was even worse than mace windu because he was married (if you believe the EU)

Ki was granted this exception because of the low Cerean birthrate. He tried to remain unattached, but it was difficult. He felt this attachment all too deeply when his family was killed during the Clone Wars.

 

So then you're stating that the Jedi can neither act within the confines of the law nor take the law into their own hands.

The law states they must report to the Supreme Chancellor. It also states they must protect the Republic against the threat of the Seperatists - who Sidious leads. Sidious is the Chancellor. So what is their priority? Obey the Chancellor or destroy the Sith? I think you know.

At that point, Mace and company dont know for sure that Palps leads the Seperatists. They know he's a Sith and thats bad news. More reason to take a time out and discuss with Yoda. Mace discussed many mundane things with Yoda, yet doesnt confer on the really big thing.

You're just delighted in the fact that the Jedi experience a catch 22 and then you posit some theory that the Jedi had other options when clearly Lucas wrote them into a corner on purpose.

Yes, its a catch 22, but one with several outs if they were patient. Not sure if Lucas was making that point or not. But judging by the points of view of this subject, I think Lucas did a good job by bringing out this question in a democracy.

They had the mandate to destroy the sith since the Battle of Naboo. Sidious being the Chancellor does not suddenly alter their mandate.

Huh ? In TPM, they were trying to find the mystery of the Sith, to discover the identity of Qui-Gons attacker. No mention of destroying the Sith there. We, the audience with prior reading of the Sith before TPM may imply it, but no mention was made of destroying them.

Lucas was smart not to leave the Jedi any other option - they had to confront Palpatine and they could have destroyed him had Anakin made the right choice.

Their other option was to wait and think about what to do. I think Lucas has been showing the Jedi making bad choices all though the PT. Yes, the dark side clouded their judgement, but we've only seen the Jedi with minds clouded then. Lucas probably wanted to show that, to knock the Jedi down a peg. I think they probably made bad choices even before Palps.


So in summary, what Mace did basically boils down to is acting treasonous, and undemocratic stupidity, exactly what Palps wanted.

MACE WiNDU: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

Yep, thats the part where he went wrong. Why quickly Mace ? Why ??

 

Anakin: "He's the Sith Lord we've been looking for"

They know he he is, and Mace is equal to Yoda - he doesn't, as is seen in the movies, always have to confer with him. It's his job, just as Yoda and Obi say later on, to protect the galaxy from the Sith. It's something the Jedi swore to do.

"I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi"
"These powers i will lay down...."

It was time for Palpatine to do this anyway, there's no reason to just "wait and see" because Palpatine's revealing himself to Anakin already made it perfectly clear that he wasn't about to hand anything over.

That's because they don't know if it's a Sith or not at that point

End of TPM - "There's no doubt that this warrior was a Sith"

"Acting treasonous"? Palpatine is the ultimate traitor. And how is not doing anything against the person who orchestrated the Clone Wars NOT treasonous? Everything Mace could've done is "treasonous". He just chose to go and arrest Palpatine, which according to Lucas, was the right thing to do.

Of course Mace and the Jedi were treasonous, so was Anakin for betraying them and the Republic, so was Palpatine, so was Bail Organa, so was Princes Leia, so was Mon Motha, so was Lando etc etc etc. Everyone's essentially betraying something when you get down to it - the only difference is that the Jedi and the Rebels are doing it for the best of everyone, whereas Anakin/Palpatine and his goons are doing it for themselves.

 

"Acting treasonous"?

To be treasonous boils down to trying to subvert/depose the Government.

That isn't what the Jedi were doing as Mace basically points out to Palpatine, and is why he responds with 'I AM the Senate'.

The Jedi weren't taking away Government.

undemocratic stupidity

mmm...I'm not sure of that, but the Jedi were in an impossible situation.

Don't do anything and lose....do something and lose. That is the beauty of Palps plan.

 

The only card the Jedi should have played was public opinion. if the Public and the Senate know Grievous is dead, and the Seps are now leaderless, then Palps cannot just refuse to step down. unless he wants to use his clones then and there and have Martial law, and create a dictatorship.which in fact would cause many systems to see that he is not on the level,and that he is a fraud. and what would happen?. exactly what he told Anakin after they killed Mace could not happen. ".civil war without end ". it's that simple. he needs to implicate the Jedi for his plan to ultimately work. as i said if Palpatine has his little supporters in the Senate , so must the Jedi . and we knbow there are at least 2000 of them, who know something is up with Palps too. and there is no reason not to believe that even if Anakin never intercepted the Posse on the way to demandthat Paplatine give up his emergency power that it would have gone any other way . he still could have attacked the Posse and have the Jedi labelled traitors. or the Jedi(Mace) may have killed him. and still be labelled traitors. it is a catch 22. they should have worked to make the information as public as possible. and let Democracy do it's thing. the fact that Palpatine knew there was a possibility of civil War proves that he knows he has to implicate the Jedi and gain support from the Senate. the Jedi needed to get the same support for their plan of Outting Palps to work.

 

Exactly Duggy. What even Padme forgets is that in a democracy, people are free to elect a Sith Jar-Jar Maul if they so choose. What Padme saw in the Senate during her "so this is how liberty ends" comment was an exercise in democracy. Not her ideal outcome of course, but an exercise of democracy.

"Acting treasonous"? Palpatine is the ultimate traitor. And how is not doing anything against the person who orchestrated the Clone Wars NOT treasonous? First, at that point, they dont know that for sure. Im not saying not to do anything forever, but a little later with some intelligence behind it. Maces rush to act doesnt make a lot of sense. Duggy's scenario is one way of doing it right.

The Jedi weren't taking away Government.

They were certainly changing the form of government that was in their constitution. They were going to replace Senators friendly to Palps. What do you call it when an unelected elitist group forcibly removes duly elected Senators and their duly elected leader ?

 

I don't know why people can't acknowledge Mace's motivation.
It is the same motivation people are quick to point out makes Anakin "look stupid" for trusting Palpatine even after he learns he is a Sith.

???Mystery person??? = person who manipulated the Trade Federation = person who was in league with Dooku, who was causing all kinds of trouble, attempting to assassinate a high profile Senator and forcing the Republic to war against a Sepratist movement = person who, it turns out, trained Dooku as a Sith and was therefore the Sith Master who trained Maul and has been eluding the Jedi for more than a decade. The cause for the imbalance in the Force.
The Jedi know all of this - they just don't know the identity or whereabouts of "Person X".

Now then, Mace learns who the Mystery person is.
Mace learns that the elusive Sith; the architect of the regrettable Naboo Trade Dispute; and the whole reason the galaxy is torn in two and is at war - is Chancellor Palpatine himself!
Yeah, the leader of the Republic which has been fighting the CIS.

I can only presume - because we all worked that out from the start - that we forget how important that is.
The scene that explains it all - Obi learns all of the above from watching a few seconds of footage and putting it all together.
He knows what Mace knew.
Yoda knows what Mace knew.

Palpatine has been screwing EVERYONE.

If the fact that he has waged war on his own Republic to cement his own political standing is not reason enough to stick a saber down his throat - let alone "arrest him" - then I don't know what is...

 

They weren't going to meet the Chancellor to order him to give up his emergency powers. The plan was to capture/kill Grievous to end the war and then see if Palpatine would concede. Anakin was supposed to watch and see what happened. Once Palpatine revealed he was Sidious, then the game changed. It wasn't about relinquishing power anymore. It was about apprehending the biggest criminal in the galaxy. They went to the Chancellor's office with the express intent of arresting, or killing if need be, the Sith Lord Sidious.

 

so when Mace said " We just recieved word that ObiWan has destroyed General grievous , were on our way to Make sure the Chancellor returns Emergency power back to the Senate " he did'nt mean it?. that is not why he was going there?.I'm not sure what Make sure Means to you but, that is exactly why he was going there. to corner Palpatine alone in his office and make the biggest mistake the Jedi ever made. what did you thinkn it meant?

 

The intent beforehand was to ensure that he gave up power as promised. Had it been under other circumstances they would have confronted him and escorted him to the Senate for an emergency session where he would relinquish control. I believe in the novel and cut scenes Mace mentions having the Jedi take control if Palpatine refuses until everything has been sorted out. But this was edited out.

However, the gameplan changed when Anakin revealed that Palpatine was the Sith Lord they'd been looking for all along. It was no longer about following legal procedures and have the Chancellor give up power, it was about removing a threat to the Republic. Once Mace met with Anakin, he took a posse over to arrest or destroy the Sith.

 

but the still were on their way to his office . after hours to demand he step down. even the novel backs this up. Palpatine comments about the hour in which the show up at his office. as my initial post stated , that Anakins info is the only thing that legitimized their action. but it was still too late. but my point is that the Posse and Mace were about to make a huge blunder.

 

This is Palpatine. The master manipulator. He knows how to spin himself out of trouble. All he has to do is raise doubts about the Jedi and make himself look good. So even if they went to the Senate, it would be a bust. Besides, the Senate is not in session. By the time they show up to state their case, Palpatine would've figured out what they're doing and go to a back-up plan for just such an occassion.

Anyway, this is a matter not for the Senate when they plan to inform Palpatine about Grievous. As pointed out, their ties to the Senate are severed. So they must do as Palpatine wants, which is to report to him. Once they realize that he's Darth Sidious, they move into arrest mode and it is correct course of action according to Lucas. The Jedi are facing a Sith Lord who has taken Darth Bane's teachings to heart. The Sith have adapated, while the Jedi are still fighting the same way they did a thousand years ago.

 

Just to clear something up...

You can't apply a catch-22 to the predicament and then also insist there are a myriad of other options for the Jedi. That's not the nature of a catch-22. It's a no-win dilemma where no matter what you do, the outcome will be the same.

Palpatine set it up that way.
George wrote it that way.

 

i agree the jedi werent thinking outside the box and instead go to the senate but i feel once they discovered palpatine was the bad guy all along that he had to be eliminated and that is why they rushed to his office with lightsabers a blazzin.

 

i concur. we must obey logic.

then it's not a catch22. easy.
because they had a way out. then it's just a self-made dilemma. because they *could* have waited. but they didn't. which is the point of this thread.

 

the course the Jedi took was a catch 22. that is what i meant. other options negate that.

 

oh yes.

by manoeuvering the way they did, they created a catch 22. ( but this is the same point that i'm trying to make about mace leaving anakin behind. or maybe it isn't. i'm lost.)

i wonder why they rush this decision so much. they had no plan whatsoever once they had found the sith lord. search and destroy apparently, which gives their wisdom so much weight.

 

You both assume that if the Jedi stepped back and bided their time that somehow Palpatine would have destroyed himself or another solution would present itself.

Even if the Senate were informed, they have no more power. Sidious can declare martial law at any time for any reason - he doesn't need Senate approval... not even to declare himself Emperor.

Pay attention to the cut scenes - Mon Mothma explains that the Senate no longer functions as a governing body. The only way to stop Palpatine is to start a rebellion and overthrow him. But the Loyalists agreed to hide their intentions from the Jedi.

There is no legal recourse to remove Palpatine since he manufactured the law to be on his side under every circumstance. He has all the power and control. This is what Mace is trying to explain to Anakin.

The only way to stop Palpatine is a new war - except Palpatine would declare martial law and the Republic's own army would squash any rebellion.

Or the Senate could attempt to arrest Palpatine - except the courts are in his pocket and again, the clones answer to him directly.

Or the Jedi could attempt to arrest Palpatine - except the courts are in his pocket and again, the clones answer to him directly and he would execute Order 66.

You guys aren't giving Lucas the credit he deserves for the predicament the Republic put the Jedi in - yes, it is the Republic's own fault (check the commentary). Lucas covered every angle in the story - the only solution was to kill Palpatine - that's why it comes down to a single moment and a single choice for Anakin...

... who blew it.

 

I think the change in motivation for Mace and crew to just barge into the Chancellor's office and arrest him is found in this sentence:

"I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi" -Mace.

Originally, Mace and Co. were going to go to Palpatine's office and diplomatically recommend that he relinquish his emergency powers now that Grievous was dead, but once they realized that Palpatine was the Sith Lord they were looking for all along it was time to arrest him. Mace knew that there was a plot to destroy the Jedi and their worst fears were realized in that Palpatine was the Sith. If the Jedi were destroyed, the Sith would rule the galaxy. As far as I see it, Mace's actions to arrest Palpatine were because he now knew the truth that Palpatine was planning on destroying all the Jedi in the galaxy.

The book adds a lot of weight into this subject because Palpatine actually uses an audio recording device to further put the blame on the Jedi. When the Jedi barge in to arrest him, he pleads innocence and acts helpless so that it does make it look like mutiny when it is played back to the senate. Palpatine even has a great line in which he doesn't deny that he's a Sith Lord by saying:

Even if it's true that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact, the last time I read the constitution anyway, we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again, what is my alleged crime?

No matter what Mace and company did, they knew that the Senate was already on Palpatine's side and they had to arrest him immediately otherwise Mace's suspicion's of the plot to destroy the Jedi would occur. It was a time for immediate action or all the Jedi would have been destroyed. I guess they thought they would deal with the Senate later. All they had to do was show the evidence that ties Palpatine to Dooku and the Senate would have turned on Palpatine and supported the Jedi.

 

The Jedi cannot call a session of Congress only the Chancellor can, so they couldn't call for one to announce the death of General Grievous. If they had anounced Grievous' death publicly by issuing a "press release" on the Holonet then Palpatine would have called for the special session of Congress to announce the end of the war and to relinquish his power.

However at this session he would spring a Plan B and turn the tables on the Jedi by claiming they started the war to overthrow the Republic. The senate would have turned on the Jedi then and there. Mace would deny this but Palpatine would provide "evidence" of the Jedi's treason.

I can see the rest of it playing out like this.

Palpatine calls for the guards to arrest the Jedi and Kit Fisto and the other two Jedi race out of the senate to get help taking out Royal Guards but would be gunned down by Clonetroopers. Mace with nothing to lose would take his lightsaber and hold Palpatine hostage. Palpatine not being able to reveal his Sith nature in front of the Senate would play along with Mace's ploy.

Palpatine would tell the senate to remain calm. Mace would lower the Chancellor's podium and once it entered the holding chamber the fight would be on and would play out similar to how it does in the film. Anakin would arrive to stop Mace from killing Palpatine and would be converted to the Darkside.

Palpatine would send Darth Vader and the Clone Troopers to wipe out the Jedi at the temple, while the Senate and the public cheered them on as they watch the attack on the holonet. Palpatine would issue Order 66 to eliminate the remaining Jedi. The public and the Senate would rally around Palpatine when declares himself Emperor.

 

Sorry, I'm going a few posts back, but ummm....WHO tried to kill WHO here??!?!?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but PALPATINE is the one who made the first move to KILL anyone.
The Jedi squadron just wanted to ARREST him. Their lightsabers were drawn for defense/intimidation.

 

You both assume that if the Jedi stepped back and bided their time that somehow Palpatine would have destroyed himself or another solution would present itself.

Yes, except I dont think Palps would have destroyed himself. Hes not a suicidal type of guy. The scenario for the execution of Order 66 has been around since Palps took delivery of the clones. He could have executed it before or after the time when he did. For the Jedi, the later the better. I cant see why Mace thought he needed to arrest/kill Palps immediately. He should have conferred with Yoda and others on a plan of action. That was the only hope of a way out.

You guys aren't giving Lucas the credit he deserves for the predicament the Republic put the Jedi in - yes, it is the Republic's own fault (check the commentary). Lucas covered every angle in the story - the only solution was to kill Palpatine - that's why it comes down to a single moment and a single choice for Anakin...


I give Lucas a lot of credit for setting up this interesting scenario.

they move into arrest mode and it is correct course of action according to Lucas.

If Lucas believes that in democracy, then he is truly lost.

 

It does not matter the jedi order was suppose to fall, and we all new this jeez. i mean these are prequels which means the ending or begining have already been predetermined. Lucas needed a way for the jedi to fall, he needed a reason for the clone wars, and he needed a reason for Anakin to go ot the darkside. All those 3 things are the basis for everything that has happened in the prequels to lead to the classic triology.

 

Not the real world, but in his fictional world, it is. As he said, Mace is winning and is going to arrest Palpatine. Even Anakin supports arresting Mace. It's killing Palpatine that is wrong legally, but morally is right. Mace is right to kill Palpatine, since that's the Jedi way. But Anakin sees things in the wrong light. He tries to justify his saving Palpatine as being the right thing legally and morally, since he is unarmed and weak. But he only wants him alive so that he can pump him for information about cheating death. If not for that, he'd let Palpatine hang for his crimes.